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Matthew Mollica

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Interesting Nicklaus Quote
« on: March 08, 2009, 09:31:17 PM »
During live final round coverage of the Honda Classic this morning, responding to a question about his own ability to close out a tournament -

"We didn't have that many players, so the chances you had to win a golf tournament were more - you had more chances. And today the guys don't have very many chances - there's so many good players out there that when they get themselves in contention they're just not used to it, and they have trouble finishing."

Interesting view from Jack.

Is it wrong to read any of this into the Tiger v Jack debate?

Matthew
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Matthew Mollica

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Re: Interesting Nicklaus Quote
« Reply #1 on: March 08, 2009, 09:46:14 PM »
Agreed David.

I think Jack's a gentleman, and his words on doing it with one's own clubs, and not hoping the other guy misses (interview post-86 Masters I think) have always stuck with me, and seemed to me to define him well. I don't believe he's that interested whether or not Tiger wins 18 or more majors.

Jack's view on the modern day pro fields was quite candid. I always hear from those espousing Jack was superior to Tiger, that the fields in which Nicklaus competed were deep and talented. More so than those against which Tiger competes. Maybe this isn't the case?

Matthew
« Last Edit: March 08, 2009, 11:08:54 PM by Matthew Mollica »
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"The truth about golf courses has a slightly different expression for every golfer. Which of them, one might ask, is without the most definitive convictions concerning the merits or deficiencies of the links he plays over? Freedom of criticism is one of the last privileges he is likely to forgo."

Garland Bayley

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Re: Interesting Nicklaus Quote
« Reply #2 on: March 09, 2009, 01:35:37 AM »
I haven't heard anyone claiming the fields in Jack's day were "deep and talented". The argument is that the players that beat him in majors were mentally tougher than Tiger's competitors. Take Phil for instance. It took him a long time to close the deal without even having Tiger in the final mix. It seems only one trick ponies are able to close the deal on Tiger. The multiple winners do their winning when Tiger is not in the mix.

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"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Richard Choi

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Re: Interesting Nicklaus Quote
« Reply #3 on: March 09, 2009, 02:24:21 AM »
I think the more interesting quote from Jack is the one from Golf Digest where he says that Tiger doesn't know anything about designing golf courses - because Jack didn't know anything when he started.
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Mark Pearce

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Re: Interesting Nicklaus Quote
« Reply #4 on: March 09, 2009, 04:43:54 AM »
Quote from: Garland Bayley on March 09, 2009, 01:35:37 AM
I haven't heard anyone claiming the fields in Jack's day were "deep and talented". The argument is that the players that beat him in majors were mentally tougher than Tiger's competitors. Take Phil for instance. It took him a long time to close the deal without even having Tiger in the final mix. It seems only one trick ponies are able to close the deal on Tiger. The multiple winners do their winning when Tiger is not in the mix.


Wasn't Tiger in the field when Harrington won his first?  Not his fault he didn't have to beat Tiger to win numbers 2 and 3.
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Scott Warren

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Re: Interesting Nicklaus Quote
« Reply #5 on: March 09, 2009, 05:02:56 AM »
Quote from: Garland Bayley on March 09, 2009, 01:35:37 AM
Take Phil for instance. It took him a long time to close the deal without even having Tiger in the final mix. It seems only one trick ponies are able to close the deal on Tiger. The multiple winners do their winning when Tiger is not in the mix.

Two of Mickelson's wins have come when Tiger has finished top five: T3 (06 Masters) and T4 (05 PGA).
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Garland Bayley

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Re: Interesting Nicklaus Quote
« Reply #6 on: March 09, 2009, 01:05:36 PM »
When I used the words Tiger was in the mix, I did not mean Tiger was struggling to catch up.

Just as when Trevino, Watson, Palmer, etc beat Jack, Jack was not coming from back in the pack to try to reach #2. I.e., compare the number of duels where Jack ended #2 to those where Tiger ended #2. Let's see, Rich Beem, the Beemer, ah that car stereo sales guy, ahhhhh I'm having trouble thinking of anyone out dueling Tiger. No names like Mickelson, Harrington, come to mind.
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Garland Bayley

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Re: Interesting Nicklaus Quote
« Reply #7 on: March 09, 2009, 01:10:08 PM »
Quote from: Richard Choi on March 09, 2009, 02:24:21 AM
I think the more interesting quote from Jack is the one from Golf Digest where he says that Tiger doesn't know anything about designing golf courses - because Jack didn't know anything when he started.

I thought that was interesting too. I think Tiger has a big advantage there, because he came of age as a second golden age of design dawned, and from what Tiger has been quoted as saying, he seems to be taking note of what is happening there. Jack came from a different age, where to do the work akin to what is being done now would have been a big break from what was being done.
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"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Kalen Braley

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Re: Interesting Nicklaus Quote
« Reply #8 on: March 09, 2009, 01:43:12 PM »
If anything he's essentially conceding what I've maintained for awhile now.

There wasn't near the depth of talent in tournaments week after week as these guys had far less good players to go up against.  Which meant a much easier chance to win because instead of having to beat the entire field there were only a handful of guys who would give you a run for your money.  On the flip side it also explains why Trevino, watson, Miller, racked up so many tourney wins because in any given week conditions were the same for them.

So what Tiger is currently doing becomes all that much more impressive.  Not only is he putting up unworldy numbers against much much deeper fields and having to stave off more folks to do so, he's doing so at a much faster rate than Jack...by a longshot.  And it also explains why some of the other greats have less major wins because when they aren't competing against Tigers insane good efforts for that W, they have the rest of the field to contend against as well.

So there you go, its all settled...Tiger is the best player ever as even Jack sort of admits it.    ;D
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Jay Kirkpatrick

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Re: Interesting Nicklaus Quote
« Reply #9 on: March 09, 2009, 01:48:07 PM »
Did Jack have the benefit of a well-established architectual associate when he first started his design business?  Doesn't Tiger have a former Dye partner?
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Garland Bayley

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Re: Interesting Nicklaus Quote
« Reply #10 on: March 09, 2009, 02:33:09 PM »
From my recollection, Tiger has an associate from Fazio.

Jack did his first course with Pete Dye. How's that for an associate? ;)

From my recollection Jack's associate for at least a while was the Desmond M?
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"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Jay Kirkpatrick

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Re: Interesting Nicklaus Quote
« Reply #11 on: March 09, 2009, 03:36:41 PM »
you are correct... a quick google confirms.

its gotta be hard to design a golf course when you're the best player on a planet.  every hole looks like a birdie hole on even the hardest of the hard courses.  how in the world can you design a course for the common man.  it took nicklaus a long time to figure that out.
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Garland Bayley

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Re: Interesting Nicklaus Quote
« Reply #12 on: March 09, 2009, 03:42:22 PM »
Quote from: Jay Kirkpatrick on March 09, 2009, 03:36:41 PM
you are correct... a quick google confirms.

its gotta be hard to design a golf course when you're the best player on a planet.  every hole looks like a birdie hole on even the hardest of the hard courses.  how in the world can you design a course for the common man.  it took nicklaus a long time to figure that out.

Especially if the MO of the GCAs of the time was to make courses hard and GD was not publishing a list of best, but of hardest.
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"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Anthony Butler

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Re: Interesting Nicklaus Quote
« Reply #13 on: March 09, 2009, 03:51:10 PM »
Quote from: Garland Bayley on March 09, 2009, 01:05:36 PM
When I used the words Tiger was in the mix, I did not mean Tiger was struggling to catch up.

Just as when Trevino, Watson, Palmer, etc beat Jack, Jack was not coming from back in the pack to try to reach #2. I.e., compare the number of duels where Jack ended #2 to those where Tiger ended #2. Let's see, Rich Beem, the Beemer, ah that car stereo sales guy, ahhhhh I'm having trouble thinking of anyone out dueling Tiger. No names like Mickelson, Harrington, come to mind.


rich beem, michael campbell, zach johnson, angel cabrera... tiger has 4-5 seconds in majors. Jack had 19.

Tiger has never gone 2-3 under for the last nine while near the lead and still lost like Nicklaus did on at least half a dozen occasions. that is an indicator of the competition Nicklaus consistently faced from Trevino, Watson, Player etc...
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Garland Bayley

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Re: Interesting Nicklaus Quote
« Reply #14 on: March 09, 2009, 05:03:34 PM »
Thanks Anthony,

That's the comparison I was referring to that counters the argument that Tiger is amassing majors way faster than Nicklaus.
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"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Kalen Braley

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Re: Interesting Nicklaus Quote
« Reply #15 on: March 09, 2009, 05:15:49 PM »
Once again...another way to intrepet this.

Jack didn't have very deep competition so he always managed to be right near the top even when he didn't have his best stuff.  Hence all the oodles of 2nd and 3rd place finishes.

Tiger on the other hand, when not winning has stiff competition from the other players who he must compete against, hence less 2nd place finishes.

But before we get too crazy with this...remember, Tiger is winning majors and tournaments at a much faster clip than Jack ever did, and he's going it against deeper fields.  Thats why whats he doing is so much more impressive, IMO.
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Garland Bayley

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Re: Interesting Nicklaus Quote
« Reply #16 on: March 09, 2009, 05:28:10 PM »
Sorry Kalen,

But he is doing it against weaker fields. The guys who know how to win don't show up at the end against Tiger. Therefore, he is amassing major wins faster, because the people he is playing against most of the time don't know how to win.
Once in awhile one of them still pulls it off so his seconds are against the like of Beem and Cabrerra.
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"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Kalen Braley

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Re: Interesting Nicklaus Quote
« Reply #17 on: March 09, 2009, 05:32:54 PM »
Quote from: Garland Bayley on March 09, 2009, 05:28:10 PM
Sorry Kalen,

But he is doing it against weaker fields. The guys who know how to win don't show up at the end against Tiger. Therefore, he is amassing major wins faster, because the people he is playing against most of the time don't know how to win.
Once in awhile one of them still pulls it off so his seconds are against the like of Beem and Cabrerra.


Garland,

That is indeed the other side of the theory!!  ;D

Unfortunatly there is only one winner per tourney and when one guys wins almost 30% of the tournaments he enters, it doesn't leave a lot left over for everyone else to prove themselves in multiple win fashion.   ;)

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Garland Bayley

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Re: Interesting Nicklaus Quote
« Reply #18 on: March 09, 2009, 05:40:51 PM »
Kalen,

You forget how few tournaments he plays. There are lots of tournaments left over to amass wins in. That's where Phil amasses wins, where Vijay amasses wins, etc.

The rest of that mass of mediocrity that they call the PGA Tour can't even beat those guys.
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"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

jeffwarne

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Re: Interesting Nicklaus Quote
« Reply #19 on: March 09, 2009, 05:45:17 PM »
Quote from: Garland Bayley on March 09, 2009, 05:40:51 PM
Kalen,

You forget how few tournaments he plays. There are lots of tournaments left over to amass wins in. That's where Phil amasses wins, where Vijay amasses wins, etc.

The rest of that mass of mediocrity that they call the PGA Tour can't even beat those guys.


You're kidding right ???
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Garland Bayley

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Re: Interesting Nicklaus Quote
« Reply #20 on: March 09, 2009, 06:04:49 PM »
Quote from: jeffwarne on March 09, 2009, 05:45:17 PM
Quote from: Garland Bayley on March 09, 2009, 05:40:51 PM
Kalen,

You forget how few tournaments he plays. There are lots of tournaments left over to amass wins in. That's where Phil amasses wins, where Vijay amasses wins, etc.

The rest of that mass of mediocrity that they call the PGA Tour can't even beat those guys.


You're kidding right ???

I'm not kidding. I'm probably not making it clear that we are talking mental toughness here. Those that are either good enough or mentally tough enough to win on tour are not mentally tough enough to go mano-a-mano against Woods in a major. Part of becoming mentally tough enough is amassing wins. Therefore, some that may be capable of developing the mental toughness necessary apparently aren't getting a chance to win enough on tour to go to the next level. Guys like Villegas and Kim give us the next great hope of being able to go mano-a-mano against Tiger. We certainly know Rory flamed out in that category.
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"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Kalen Braley

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Re: Interesting Nicklaus Quote
« Reply #21 on: March 09, 2009, 06:08:12 PM »
Quote from: Garland Bayley on March 09, 2009, 05:40:51 PM
Kalen,

You forget how few tournaments he plays. There are lots of tournaments left over to amass wins in. That's where Phil amasses wins, where Vijay amasses wins, etc.

The rest of that mass of mediocrity that they call the PGA Tour can't even beat those guys.


Garland,

Do you mean guys like Ernie Els with 3 majors and 16 PGA Tour wins?
Or perhaps Vijay Sing with 3 majors and 34 PGA Tour wins?
Or maybe Phil with 3 majors and 35 PGA Tour wins?

Phil and Vijay aren't even done playing yet and have more PGA Tour wins than the likes of Jimmy Demaret, Lee Trevino, Johnny Miller, Gary Player, Raymond Floyd, Ben Crenshaw, Hale Irwin, Greg Norman.  Yet Phil and Vijay are a mass of medicrity?  I guess you have to add those names I just listed as well then.   ;D
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Garland Bayley

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Re: Interesting Nicklaus Quote
« Reply #22 on: March 09, 2009, 06:26:30 PM »
That's mental toughness mediocrity Kalen, mental toughness.

Rory has shown he can win, but he has also shown he heads out of Dodge with his tail between his legs when Sheriff Tiger is in town.
Vijay, Ernie, and Phil may not put their tail between their legs, but they might as well leave Dodge for all the success they have had mano-a-mano against Tiger. I do admit they give glimmers of hope sometimes, but the glimmer soon fades.
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"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

jeffwarne

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Re: Interesting Nicklaus Quote
« Reply #23 on: March 09, 2009, 06:28:05 PM »
I think Jack said it quite well.

If he hadn't designed the course,  ;)he might've mentioned when you play really hard, contrived, water and OB strewn courses in normal Florida windy conditions, you get leaderboards populated by unfamiliar names not used to such lofty perches.
It's  harder to choke at the older tour courses of Jack's day which had considerably more room for error.

Why even bring up a punk like Rory?
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Bob Harris

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Re: Interesting Nicklaus Quote
« Reply #24 on: March 09, 2009, 06:39:47 PM »
Quote from: Kalen Braley on March 09, 2009, 06:08:12 PM
Quote from: Garland Bayley on March 09, 2009, 05:40:51 PM
Kalen,

You forget how few tournaments he plays. There are lots of tournaments left over to amass wins in. That's where Phil amasses wins, where Vijay amasses wins, etc.

The rest of that mass of mediocrity that they call the PGA Tour can't even beat those guys.


Garland,

Do you mean guys like Ernie Els with 3 majors and 16 PGA Tour wins?
Or perhaps Vijay Sing with 3 majors and 34 PGA Tour wins?
Or maybe Phil with 3 majors and 35 PGA Tour wins?

Phil and Vijay aren't even done playing yet and have more PGA Tour wins than the likes of Jimmy Demaret, Lee Trevino, Johnny Miller, Gary Player, Raymond Floyd, Ben Crenshaw, Hale Irwin, Greg Norman.  Yet Phil and Vijay are a mass of medicrity?  I guess you have to add those names I just listed as well then.   ;D

Some interesting stats, not sure what they mean:

from 1962 to 1986, Jack won 18 of the 100 majors played, 18%.  The top five, Watson, Player, Trevino, Floyd and Seve won 28, 28%. 

from 1997 to 2008, Tiger won 14 of 48 played, 29%.  The top five, Michelson, Harrington, Singh, Els and Goosen (or O'Meara) won 13, 27%.  Not a significant difference from Jack's competition.   

Looking at Jack's first 12 years, he won 12 compared to Tiger's 14, whereas Player, Trevino, Casper, Boros and Palmer won 16.

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