[Scott Witter]

Given the architect, I found this bunkering style a bit out of character from what many typically believe identify his work.

[JNagle]

Scott -

Great shot.  We have seen other courses with similar styles.  Will hold off on commenting otherwise.

[Scott Witter]

Jim,

Where so, I would love to know?  I just did a quick bunker count and came up with 118!

But you have to admit, this architect didn't use this "sexy" style very often.

[mark chalfant]

Scott,

This looks very similar to the great CC of Buffalo course by Donald Ross in Williamsville NY. The flow of the highly natural routing, and the green complexes are also splendid at  this Golden Age course

[Scott Witter]

Mark,

I had forgotten that there a few ex western New Yorkers out their in the group.  Good call.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Scott,

What was the property before it became a golf course ?

What's interesting is that the design contradicts some of Ross's basic tenets as outlined in his book, proving that sometimes these talented fellows advised others to "do as I say, not as I do".

It seems as if many, if not most of these early 20th Century courses had far more bunkering than their modern day counterparts.

Do you think the absence of trees was responsible for the introduction of an inordinate number of bunkers ?

[Scott Witter]

I believe about half of it was a stone quarry, the rest farm land and therein lies the lack of trees.  No I don't believe the lack of trees is the reasoning behind so many bunkers.  IMO, this course by Ross does have a remarkable amount of bunkers.  However, I do find it somewhat unusual to see so many on this site.

Down the road in Rochester NY he did 5 other courses where his use of bunkers appears to be more selectively chosen/deliberate in ideal locations for strategy etc.--as you might expect.  Here at CCB, the holes not around where the quarry was is relatively quiet and many bunkers are 'created' almost in fill conditions with organic and irregular mounding with them, sort of what I have seen in a few courses in New England.

Jim Nagle can probably provide more insight re: CCB as he and Ron Forse are doing a master plan for the club.

Curious, what design tenents are you referring to that you believe Ross didn't follow at CCB?

[Ronald Montesano]

I'll make a bold statement on this thread:  the 6th hole at CCB, the quarry par three, was tested prior to this course.  I believe that Ross did a redesign of the 2nd CCB at Bailey/Main (the site of the 1912 USGA McDermott Open), as a similar, three-tiered green (currently the 17th but not in play in 1912) exists there on a hole just a wee bit shorter at 145 yards.  Ross came in as a consultant after the 1912 Open, as the CCB wanted another Open.  The work was done (before the hospital was built) but the club then went on to purchase the new land and build the current CCB.

Looking back at 1927, I am amazed how many bunkers (look at the first hole alone) are NLE.  Nice post, Witt.

Mucci, interesting note on the trees.  They treed the living hello out of the place from 1927 to 2000.  They began selective removal around then, but Mother Nature, impatient B*$&h that she is, took out 500 on her own during the October Storm of 2006.  The place is absolutely barren right now, looking like the original course.

[Craig Disher]

Scott,
That is an amazing aerial. I found some 1938 aerials a few years ago that didn't have anywhere near the clarity of this one. Where did you find this? The scale looks to be the same as the ones at the Nat'l Archives but the earliest ones they have are from the mid 1930s.

[mike_beene]

Do we know that the bunkers were part of Ross' plan and not added afterwards?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Scott,

Ross didn't like roads cutting through a golf course, had views on preferable clubhouse locations, all of which are contradicted at CCB.

[Ronald Montesano]

In Ross book (the good one...Golf been bery bery good to me) he singles out CCB for succeeding in spite of the road knifing through the property.  At CCB, the first is an easy, ordinary par four that is almost driveable these days.  Don't go left or you are on the road and OB.  The 18th is a killer 4, falling off the hill on which the clubhouse sits as a left to right dogleg (like #1) with thick rough right if you attempt to shorten the hole too much.  The green sits on a plateau or mesa and is easily 2-3 clubs deep.  If you make four on 18 from the tips, hoist one.

A little history lesson on CCB.  First course built on rented land around 1890.  Second course built on purchased land around 1905 (ultimately was site of 1912 Open).  Third course built mid-1920s.  As a result, it would be difficult to imagine that bunkers in 1927 were not part of Ross' plan.  As it was a private and Buffalo still held a place of importance in the USA goings-on then, chances are excellent that he made numerous site visits and ensured that his plans were carried out.  The 2nd course site was sold to the city of Buffalo and went on to hold the 1925 USGA Pub Links championship (has any other course had that double?) before the Veteran's Administration built a hospital and parking lot on a sizeable chunk of the property.  It's now a 5500 yard 18 holer with character around the greens.

[Scott Witter]

Ron-- I wouldn't go so far as to say the place is barren, far from it IMO and I actually wouldn't mind, nor would Mr. Frank the super, if Mother Nature stepped in once again and did her kind deed

Craig, I only have a couplke minutes so I'll send you an Im later about my source and I would be happy to send you an even better version

Mike,  I believe the bunkers are all Ross's or at least one of his construction associates, Hatch, McGovern--not sure who was onsite here and again, maybe Jim Nagle can shed more light in this area.  Remember, this photo was taken only a couple of years after the course opened at this location.  That is usually a pretty good indicator.

Gotta run

[Scott Witter]

Ron,

Thanks for covering my back man with the background--all good stuff.

[Ronald Montesano]

All right, maybe not barren but it certainly did lose a ton (at last count, about 500) of trees.  They had to lower the second tee and add an interesting plot of swamp grass on the direct line to the green in order to deter people from cutting the corner too much.  It ain't the Hinkle tree, but it's close.

[TEPaul]

"I believe the bunkers are all Ross's or at least one of his construction associates, Hatch, McGovern--not sure who was onsite here and again, maybe Jim Nagle can shed more light in this area.  Remember, this photo was taken only a couple of years after the course opened at this location.  That is usually a pretty good indicator."


Scott:

I don't know the CCB but just looking at that aerial of that bunkering it doesn't look much different from at least one or two other courses of Ross/McGovern of that time (late 1920s). I'm particularly referring to the bunkering of Aronimink and Jeffersonville. It seems that clustered or multi-set style may've been McGovern's more than Ross.

Years ago Ron Prichard sent me a tournament program of Aronimink's just after it opened and in that program that clustered or multi-set bunkering style was featured and advertised. It actually mentioned Aronimink utilized the same look that Jeffersonville had made famous around here.

As to the numbers or quantities of bunkers on a course and what that meant, it could be that Ross (McGovern) looked at it the same way Flynn did. Flynn wrote on the subject of bunkering for the USGA Bulletin in 1927 explaining that the type of course he was being asked to do essentially depended on the bunkering and bunker schemes he designed and used----eg a so-called championship course would be and should be bunkered quite different and apparently much more heavily than say a so-called "memberhip" course.

[Ronald Montesano]

With the exception of the wonderful 10th, the short par four with the devilishly small and undulating putting green, the majority of the bunker outbreaks are on the front (and easier) nine.  The back nine is much more stout and perhaps didn't need the protection that sand provides.  The golf teams that I coach play this course with some regularity and they play much better (2-3 strokes) on the front than on the back.  I don't think that it's a case of familiarity...the back nine has 8 very strong golf holes, 9 if you play the 17th as a par four (and get rid of the post-Ross pond.)

[TEPaul]

Scott or Jim Nagle:

Here's another thing about that aerial and CCB. Since I don't know the course I was trying to figure out if that aerial shows some of Ross's old "top shot" bunkers that were generally about 100-125 yards off some tees. It looks like some holes at CCB may've had some (perhaps a bit diagonally). If so I would like to ask you or anyone else if they are aware of any place that Ross himself actually referred to those bunkers by name as "top shot" bunkers?

If you're not aware of any time or place that he referred to them that way I think I might have something for you.

[Ronald Montesano]

...or Ron!

The top shot bunkers you refer to are gone.  They are gone from the first (lower right before crossing road) the second (upper right after crossing road) the third (top right on perimeter) and the fourth (top center along perimeter).  The club must have opted for the members' course, rather than the champions' course.  The return of those bunkers would certainly alter things.

[TEPaul]

"They are gone from the first (lower right before crossing road) the second (upper right after crossing road) the third (top right on perimeter) and the fourth (top center along perimeter)."


Yeah, well, I guess that's understandable. My course, GMGC (Ross 1916) had them on up to 13-14 holes but they were removed on the suggestion of Wayne Stiles in the 1940s and in our restoration the club would not agree to restore them.

Aronimink did restore some of theirs recently though. 

[Scott Witter]

Pat:  I agree with you that this does seem to go against the grain, but if you knew the course I believe you would agree that the road doesn't negatively affect the routing.

Ron, I could be full of it and that wouldn't surprise many who know me, but I think at least part of the reason your players score better on the front may be due to its relative flatness as opposed to the back that has a lot more topo.  I suspect while your high school players may be accomplished and comfortable with the americanized quiet landing zones, they probably have not developed much of a skill set for shot making that is needed more on the back nine with hanging lies and side hill stances that really call for working the ball.  What do you think?

From my count I get about 10 holes at 1927 CCB that have those short 'top shot' bunkers...but then I am not a teacher at the "Nichols School" and my not be able to count correctly

Tom, I couldn't find any documentation re: Ross and this type of bunker, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist, or perhaps he phrased them another way?  At any rate, I would love to know
more about "If you're not aware of any time or place that he referred to them that way I think I might have something for you."  Come on now Tom, don't hold out on good info that we may be able to put to good use someday.  IM me if you want and I woun't give away your secret.

I am always interested in the transformation from paper to ground as it relates to preservation/restorative/renovation work and so on, and in this case, a comparison from the CCB dwg to this photo--I have them both in my office is remarkable for duplication of bunker for bunker and for precise positioning.  It doesn't take but a minute or two to realize that McGovern, or whomever was on site here followed Johnson's dwg and Ross design "to the T"  Thinking of this and remembering countless discussions/debates on this board about dwgs vs actual construction I find it most interesting to note that in this case anyway the transformation was essentially literal

[TEPaul]

"Tom, I couldn't find any documentation re: Ross and this type of bunker, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist, or perhaps he phrased them another way?  At any rate, I would love to know
more about "If you're not aware of any time or place that he referred to them that way I think I might have something for you."  Come on now Tom, don't hold out on good info that we may be able to put to good use someday.  IM me if you want and I woun't give away your secret."


Scott:

I'm not trying to hold out on any info. I was just asking first. We've been using that term "top shot" bunkers for years on here and it always seems to be associated with Ross. I used it even before this website existed for those bunkers on my course. After a while I began to wonder where I first read it or heard it. I started looking through some of what Ross wrote like his manuscript that became "Golf Has Never Failed Me" and I couldn't find it in there and so I began to wonder whether I'd come up with the term.

For years there was always that story that Ross didn't like topped balls that ran out on hard ground to where a good drive went and so maybe I began to refer to them as "Top Shot" bunkers for that reason even if he never used that term to describe them.

And then a few years ago just before he died this wonderful older man from my club who'd been the chairman of the green committee gave me a file he'd had for decades that contained a pretty full blown master plan from Ross himself from 1927 for our course over ten years after he built it. In that master plan Ross did refer to those bunkers as "Top Shot" bunkers but to date that is the only time and the only place I have found where he mentioned them that way.

So there you go.

[TEPaul]

"It doesn't take but a minute or two to realize that McGovern, or whomever was on site here followed Johnson's dwg and Ross design "to the T"  Thinking of this and remembering countless discussions/debates on this board about dwgs vs actual construction I find it most interesting to note that in this case anyway the transformation was essentially literal."


Scott:

I don't know that one could or should come to that conclusion, particularly about McGovern and both Jeffersonville and Aronimink just might be two courses that indicate it. There were no multi-set bunker drawings found from Ross or Johnson. The only ones found from Ross were his quite detailed field drawings which indicated singles where those multi-sets got built. McGovern was not just Ross's foreman at Aronimink, he was also a respected member of the club and served on its green committee when the present Aronimink was under construction. And most think it was McGovern who designed and built Jeffersonville for Ross even though that club eventually did find bills for it from the Ross organization.

Obviously because Ross was a very high production architect it seems some of his primary foremen like Hatch and McGovern had quite a lot of latitude. This was not the same as Flynn's organization where Flynn virtually demanded that his foremen only build specifically to his very detailed plans and drawings. Dick Wilson apparently found that out the hard way at Shinnecock when they had to go back and take out some things he'd done on his own and do them to Flynn's plans.

[Ronald Montesano]

Scott, I trust your math skills.  Truth is, I stopped counting after the fifth hole.  They certainly would add an element of blindness to the tee ball these days.

[JNagle]

The tree damage that the Club suffered in 2006 was the real beginning of our work at CC of B.  Because of the tree damage and removal a number of holes became unsafe; 2 and 9, 5 and 14 come to mind.  Our first venture was to look at a Landscape/Tree plan.  In doing so, we had to account for all existing bunkers and those that no longer exist.  A master plan does not exist at this time, however a portion of it has been, at least, thought of because of the need for trees and trees to be removed in relation to future bunkers, tees, ......  It may seem that the cart was put before the horse, but in this instance a tree program was critical.  Scott is correct is stating that the photo and Ross' plan are very similar.  One wonders if Ross' plans were as-builts versus design drawing; very little difference.

The CC of B is without question one of those "hidden gems".  The course is on the shorter side, but if you can imagine all (or many) of those strategic bunkers back in-place, it makes for a great course.

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()