[Matt Day]

Matt,

By my calculations, you'd have to tee off 4- foursomes every 8 minutes for 10 hours straight each day, 365 days per year to achieve 85,000 rounds (all approximations). That wouldn't leave any rain days or anything.

Wow. Great climate, great client base.

Joe

Joe
we are blessed with sunlight, at the moment we are in early autumn and getting around 12 hours but in summer we have guys teeing off at 5.30am and still playing at 8.30pm

[Matt Day]

John
We are in Perth, Western Australia so a little bit away from Florida 

Golf here is affordable and the weather so good that particpation levels are still strong. Their's an 18 hole course no more than ten minutes from me doing around 95,000 rounds per annum.

We are talking about courses that are around 6100-6200 yards long, maintained reasonably well that cost you no more than $28 (Aussie dollars) for a game on the weekend

Matt

sounds like Wembley to me.  Played there in 1976 when it was 27 holes.  The 'better' 18 got to me over a 72 hole Schoolby tournament.  The sandy rough was very difficult to recover from.  The other 9 was played one night after golf, and it was a lot of fun.

James B

James
spot on, now 36 holes and has changed a bit 1976 

[James Bennett]

Matt

I revisited briefly 10 to 15 years ago on my only other visit to Perth.  It was like a kid going back to Primary School.  The place didn't look as big or imposing s it did when I was younger.  I still remember the first - the shortish par 5 dogleg left with tree-lined fairways, and a green set within a treed defence.  That msut be a problem green for the course staff - heavier shade I expect.

The course has excellent undulation/elevartion change and sand.  It is a very good public facility.

James B

[Matt Day]

Matt

I revisited briefly 10 to 15 years ago on my only other visit to Perth.  It was like a kid going back to Primary School.  The place didn't look as big or imposing s it did when I was younger.  I still remember the first - the shortish par 5 dogleg left with tree-lined fairways, and a green set within a treed defence.  That msut be a problem green for the course staff - heavier shade I expect.

The course has excellent undulation/elevartion change and sand.  It is a very good public facility.

James B

James
we pushed that green back about 50 metres a year ago and removed a few trees. The Old Course was established in 1932 so its full of dogleg holes that create interest. That course gets around 100,000 rounds, its a favourite with a lot of people

Investing $3 million on a new irrigation system a few years ago has transfomed the place, and its now in very good condition. Just about to spend $11 million replacing the driving range, pro shop and other bits and pieces

[John Moore II]

Kevin,
If you think shortening intervals between tee times will speed up play,
you OBVIOUSLY have no experience in the business.
a 6 minute interval means you will wait on EVERY shot so no matter what the pace is, you will be miserable.
I've seen 4 groups together (the only groups on the tee sheet for that day) follow each other  right off the tee(6-7 minute intervals), play in 3:45, and the last 3 groups come in screaming about the pace of play!
(if you go right off after a group is just out of range and the group behind you does the same-you're screwed)

Putting visible 150 markers i.e. stakes or something vertical (off to the sides- not the center)is a good substitute for sprinklers as it allows estimation as opposed to running around looking for sprinklers.

no stroke play is also a good suggestion

Jeff

Just 20 years of experience - playing same in my local club competition. No experience "obviously" !

I hardly ever have to wait for shots - sometimes in "strokeplay" events but that's to be expected with handicap ranges.

Club rounds of 3.45 - 4 hrs are norm. The club has a "gap group" every hour in the time sheet to accomodate a potential build up.

John K.

We don't have excessive cart use at our club. The odd one here and there - most of it is walk traffic and we get though fine. I was out with the first group on the weekend (a 3ball)  and we finished our round in three hours flat.

240/18 = an average of 13.3 mins a hole. That's about right with a mix of P3's to P5's. We have 4 P5's and 6 P3's and one  normally arrives at the tee on the later only to wait for the group in front to finish but a few putts.

As aforementioned - it's worked at our club for the 20 years of my experience....and we dont have the luxury of a two tee start.

I couldn't imagine playing at a club with 10 min spacings - surely there's more gaps between groups at the end of the round ?

OK Kevin, like I said, IF you can get groups around in right around 3 hours, a 6 minute interval will work great. (Where do you live/play by the way?) But when getting up into the 4.5 hour range, it will be misery. If I had to guess, the reason Matt Day gets by with rounds finishing in 4.5 hours is because the course is 6200 yards long.

Here in America with courses being probably 6500 on average coupled with people playing tees too long for them and some other factors, 6 minute intervals would lead to 6 hour rounds by the end of the day.

Matt--Given your location geographically, I would assume you have warmish weather nearly year round? Meaning, I would figure the low temp doesn't drop below freezing more than 10 days a year? I looked at the average temps on Yahoo, you have great weather for year-round golf.

[Matt Day]

John
We do get some cold mornings in winter but not many at zero degrees celsius, and our location is only 2 minutes from the beach so frost isn't a major problem.  Nearly all our rainfall is in a 4 month window (average is around 800mm), and when it rains it tends to chuck it down.

Summer gets really hot and dry with very little rain between say December and March.

In regards to the six minutes, we have made a concerted effort to get the early groups going round quickly. Also have cleared bush areas where play was being held up and removed a few trees that created problems. We don't have all the solutions and I'll definitely be looking at some of the great ideas put forward on this thread.

[Mike Jansen]

The course I work at is constantly battling with pace of play.  We have 4:30 stamped on range balls, the starters tell each and every group, and we have 2-3 marshals on the course... and we average 4:45 and see plenty of 5 hour rounds.

It is a resort course that sees a vast mix of golfers: first timers to tour pros, is very difficult and is cart paths only, also offering caddies.  Playing this golf is an amazing experience and you get caught just staring around, taking it all in. 

Unfortunately it is a long round of golf.  I feel that we should be real, tell them to plan for a 5 hour round, and when they come in at 4:30 they are pleasantly suprised, expectations exceeded.

St. Andrews' whole thing is 3:58.  I played in four ball with 3 caddies (I did not have one) in 4 hours exactly, and I felt like we flew through the round too fast.  Thank god I took pictures every step of the whole or I wouldn't remember much of it.  An extra 30 minutes there would have been nice.

[James Bennett]

John Moore

regarding Perth weather - think San Diego, it would be similar.  Winter rain, mild winter days (60's for you) averaging less than a day a year with a below freezing minimum .  In the summer, Wembley's location near the coast is critical as the sea breeze (the Fremantle Doctor) keeps the golfers sane with dry heat.

Adelaide, Melbourne and Tasmania (Barnbougle) imply moving north up the USA west coast, weather-wise, from San Diego.  Slightly cooler but still summer droughts (and we all get the occasional stinker of a dry hot day).

James B

[Kevin Pallier]

I said, IF you can get groups around in right around 3 hours, a 6 minute interval will work great. (Where do you live/play by the way?) But when getting up into the 4.5 hour range, it will be misery. If I had to guess, the reason Matt Day gets by with rounds finishing in 4.5 hours is because the course is 6200 yards long.

Here in America with courses being probably 6500 on average coupled with people playing tees too long for them and some other factors, 6 minute intervals would lead to 6 hour rounds by the end of the day.

John

I live / play in Wollongong  - NSW (Aust) and my home course is 5,700m (6,200+ yards)

The weather is much better than Matt gets in Perth 

Where do you reside / play ?

[John Moore II]

I said, IF you can get groups around in right around 3 hours, a 6 minute interval will work great. (Where do you live/play by the way?) But when getting up into the 4.5 hour range, it will be misery. If I had to guess, the reason Matt Day gets by with rounds finishing in 4.5 hours is because the course is 6200 yards long.

Here in America with courses being probably 6500 on average coupled with people playing tees too long for them and some other factors, 6 minute intervals would lead to 6 hour rounds by the end of the day.

John

I live / play in Wollongong  - NSW (Aust) and my home course is 5,700m (6,200+ yards)

The weather is much better than Matt gets in Perth 

Where do you reside / play ?

At 6200 yards, the 6 minute tee times are somewhat viable because you should be able to get the first groups around in roughly 3 hours, even for hacks. But as soon as someone goes over 3 hours, the pace will slow progressively through the field, just because it takes longer for groups to play shots than there is spacing on the course. And the tee times will likely get fouled up a bit as well later in the day.

I live in Raleigh, NC, eastern United States. Courses less than 6500 yards around here are a rarity and most of our courses are routed through houses, making for longer rounds simply because of walk/drive time from green to tee. Plus, so many in America like to play tees that are too long/difficult for them and that winds up taking even longer. 6 minutes would not be viable in the least here, IMO. Its hard enough managing play with the 7/8 minute intervals.

[Lou_Duran]

A question primarily for those "in the business":

What would be the effect of a very diplomatic starter explaining to each group as they are preparing to tee off the basic requirements or rules of the course, including the need to play at a brisk pace of x amount of time per nine holes, then stamping the card with the time when the group is cleared to hit, and having the card checked off on the 10th tee, and again at the conclusion of the round?  Obvious problems are the cost of the starters/monitors, any ill will that may ensue when golfers perceive that they are being treated like children, and the difficulty of presenting the message succinctly, politely, and effectively.  I am convinced that a large proportion of slow players are not aware of their sloth.  Would something like this make much of a difference unless there were also some incentives or consequences associated with compliance?

According to the manager at Costa Mesa CC (muni) in CA, the five and six hour rounds there are nearly impossible to shorten.  The course is very short, compact, fairly easy, and with few areas for lost balls.  They've tried several approaches and the bottom line is that pissing off a customer who will then complain to the city is not worth the effort.  And despite the glacial speed of play, the place is packed seven days a week.  Personally, I've come to the conclusion that the only way to establish a reasonable speed of play culture at a public club is for the management to know who is playing the course and to force the unrepentant slow players out.  In markets with weak economics this is a double edged sword.  Do you kick out a paying customer for slow play or do you lose another because the speed of play is intolerable?  Though I practiced at Costa Mesa at least weekly, in my nearly three years of living in the area I only played each of the two courses once.  Ditto for Tommy's beloved Rec Park.  Six hour rounds takes all the fun from the game and probably has as much impact on why people quit playing golf as cost and any other single cause.

[Matt Day]

I said, IF you can get groups around in right around 3 hours, a 6 minute interval will work great. (Where do you live/play by the way?) But when getting up into the 4.5 hour range, it will be misery. If I had to guess, the reason Matt Day gets by with rounds finishing in 4.5 hours is because the course is 6200 yards long.

Here in America with courses being probably 6500 on average coupled with people playing tees too long for them and some other factors, 6 minute intervals would lead to 6 hour rounds by the end of the day.

John

I live / play in Wollongong  - NSW (Aust) and my home course is 5,700m (6,200+ yards)

The weather is much better than Matt gets in Perth 

Where do you reside / play ?

At 6200 yards, the 6 minute tee times are somewhat viable because you should be able to get the first groups around in roughly 3 hours, even for hacks. But as soon as someone goes over 3 hours, the pace will slow progressively through the field, just because it takes longer for groups to play shots than there is spacing on the course. And the tee times will likely get fouled up a bit as well later in the day.

I live in Raleigh, NC, eastern United States. Courses less than 6500 yards around here are a rarity and most of our courses are routed through houses, making for longer rounds simply because of walk/drive time from green to tee. Plus, so many in America like to play tees that are too long/difficult for them and that winds up taking even longer. 6 minutes would not be viable in the least here, IMO. Its hard enough managing play with the 7/8 minute intervals.

John
I spent a great couple of days in Raleigh two years ago with a group of Aussie supers, we went to the Bayer Turf research facility then had a look at Prestonwood CC, Tobacco Road and Pinehurst. Nice part of the world from what we saw, and very very friendly people

[John Moore II]

Lou--At Mid South it was part of the talk that the starter gave every group to tell them that the pace of play was 4:20 (I tried my hardest to get the time reduced, 4:20 should not in my opinion be acceptable pace) and that if they could not keep pace with the group in front of them, they would first be asked to speed up, then moved into position by either skipping a hole or otherwise, and finally, if they still can't keep up, they will be removed from the course.

You are correct, many people don't realize they are slow. But again, I can't say this enough, groups lose time through the day. I have never played the course you mention, never seen it, and I do not wish to speak badly about the staff. But it very well may be possible that due to the number of golfers they get coming through the place, you literally can't play fast. Like I have said, with lost time through the day, if the first group takes 4 hours to play, by the time the mid afternoon rolls around, you're looking at 5ish hours. Especially considering that I would bet that like most super-busy muni courses, they don't really work with 'starting times' but just pretty much tell the next group to hit away when the group ahead is out of range.

And frankly, as someone in the business, if I could maintain a full tee sheet all the time, I wouldn't care if it took groups 8 hours to play, so long as the final group of the day was able to finish. There is an old expression, don't stop a moving train. If this course you mention can keep the tee sheet full, obviously not enough people are disgusted with the pace for it to matter. They keep the tee sheet and the cash drawer full. You can't ask for much more in the golf business; at least those of us BEHIND the counter can't.

[Tom Huckaby]

JKM:

DAMN! I was hoping you had some magic bullet for all of this. You see, Lou's experience at Costa Mesa (SoCal) is replicated at my home course Santa Teresa (NorCal). On weekends for sure, most weekdays too, pace is glacial, 5.5 hours is considered fast, and the tee sheet is packed no matter what.  It's rather a matter of supply and demand; too many golfers, too few public courses.

This place keeps 7 minute intervals... sigh....

So is the answer really that we're just screwed?  I have always thought so.. it just hurt to read it from someone in the business.

 

[Tim Nugent]

Huck, yes, supply/demand.  If they raised the rates 20%, would they lose 20% of the golfers?  Probably not.  The problem w/muni golf is that the 10% they would lose would bitch to high heaven.

John- "I wouldn't care to have 8 hr rnds if the sheet was full and they could finish"
Does this actually pencil out as more profitable?  Seems that if your last tee time is 8hrs before dark, you're only selling til noon.  Let's see, 4 every 6 min = 40/hr*5hr =200 frugile golfers.  4*10 = 24/hr*9hr (assuming 4hr rnds)=216 less frugile golfers per day.  My MBA tells me that less is more.

Josh, it warms my heart to see a management company guy who doesn't pretend to already have all the answers and isn't afraid to ask for help. Having worked as both  designer, operator, and you know the course - very public - here are a couple of things that have yet to be mentioned.

1) I have noticed that - surprise, surprise - not all golfer are created equal.  By this I mean there seems to be 2 types of golfers.  Let's call them Type A and Type B.   Type A golfers (seems alot here at GCA) like to get out and go.  These are the guys who will get up before dawn to get out to the course, get 18 in and have time to do other stuff for the rest of the day.  Then there is the Type B guy.  No alarm clock, has breakfast, reads the paper, then goes out to the course - does aliitle putting/chipping, hits a bucket, then proceeds to the 1st tee.  This guy is not going to do under 4 hrs - even with a gun to his head.

Therefore, what we did was to start off the 1st 2 hrs with 8.5 min starts (8,9,8,9 etc.)  the went to 9 min thereafter.  Every 2 hrs we held out one "starter" time.  If the course was backing up, it went unused to get the course "back on track" otherwise, it could be sold to a walk-on.

2) On high traffic days, ie weekends, we moved all the par 3 tees up.

3) rangers acted as caddies for slow groups until they caught up - tended pins, raked bunkers, fore caddied and carried extra balls to be used in the event of a lost ball (no penalty). For some, it seems the cost of  lost ball was too great, so we just gave them a new one and they were happy.

4) have the practice green next to the 1st tee so you don't lose groups and have to spend starter time trying to "find" them.

5) have the 2nd or 3rd green come back to(or be visable from) the 1st tee, so the starter can get real time feedback as to the pace of play.

Other things I have seen:

1) build 5 tees but only use a 4 tee system.  This allows for the course to play shorter when the backs aren't used.  The Blacks are really Blue, Blue really White, etc.  Not only is play faster but it puts a majority of golfers on the tee they really should be playing anyway and they score better/have more fun/and tell their friends what a great course it is.

2) Never have a par 3 before the 4th hole.  The first par 3 will most likely be the first bottleneck.

3) Don't have a long par 4 as the 1st hole.  Short hit first shots will wait for the green to clear before they launch their "career 3-wood - which they inevitably top or chunck.

4) Since you will never get rid of them,  Rules for Beverage Carts:
A) never allow the beverage babe to stop  a group in the middle of a hole.  
B) have them go backwards through the course.
C) only sell at tees. This way someone can hit while the others are buying.
D) forget about the last couple holes, if they want something, the clubhouse is just around the corner and I would think you would rather have them in the clubhouse buying food and booze.

5) watch out for the "Drivable Par 4" that GCAers (including me) love.  9 out of 10 who wait for the green to clear will NOT driving the green.  And a few will miss so bad as to lose a ball (another 5 minutes loooking for it)

6) don't plant trees along fairways

7) keep water to a minimum.  Even those who do not hit one in will look.

no 10+ green speeds.  3 putts eat up more time than anything else.

9) rangers who watch or follower golfers will make them nervious and counter-intuitively slow them down.

10) make fairways 40-50 yds wide.

11) limit the big, undulating greens.  (see #8).  People take more time lining up long putts than they do with chips.

12) discourage 7,000+ courses. 6,800 is all the course 95% can handle.

13) 10 minute tee times will hardly ever result in backups (ie Kemper when it was public).  Forest Preserve National even used 12 min in the beginning.

14) a forced carry off the 1st tee to get players to play what they could handle.  Too often heard "for this money - I'm playing THE WHOLE COURSE"

15) A long time ago, at Troon, they had carts that had little pictures of the holes going around the circle in the middle of the steering wheel.  There was a clock-hand that was somehow calibrated to the length of the holes and indicated at anytime throughout your round, just where on the course you should be.  Never saw it again but thought it was great for cart golf.
Seems like something like this could be done quite easily w/GPS systems.
Some Things I would like to see changed:

1) get rid of OB.  Stroke and distance is a killer.  Just play it as a lateral.  the penalty is the same.

2) see #1.

3) courses where 9 doesn't end at the clubhouse.  It could end nearby, but far enough that people don't go in between nines.

4) NO CELL PHONES.  Tired of seeing guys setting in carts talking on phines when its's their turn to hit.

5) Honors only in Match play.  It doesn't related to Medal Play.

6) Ready golf for Medal Play as a rule.

[Matt_Ward]

Tim:

Hats off to the suggestions you provided -- especially for the beverage carts that are running all over the place.

In regards to cell phones -- banish those who use them. It will take time but if someone is caught on the course using one -- then they should be suspended for a time. The idea that people MUST be connected is inane. Ditto those who proclaim about the rare "emergency" that can happen. It's really simple -- just tell those who know you where you will be and the number at the clubhouse -- if it's a bonafide emergency staff will get you when playing.

Tim, one thing though -- rangers should not hawk players but they should let them know that being at certain positions on the course within clear time lines is A MUST. IF THEY MISS then they should move up, even if that means not playing shots. If people can't cooperate then say bye-bye and give them their $$ back. Once you allow the slowpokes to take over it's no different than the surge of zombies you see in a George Romeo movie - they just keep on coming !

One last thing you didn't mention -- if a course mandates carts to paths then don't send carts out. Once you have to babysit the cart -- the focus is on driving rather than playing the game. Clearly, what I just said can be a strain but rarely will you find a round of golf being faster once carts are path mandated.

Lou:

I concur with much of what you said.

The issue is does management at any facility really identify the slowpokes and take a proactive approach in dealing with them. Most places don't do squat because it's easier to sit on their can and let each day go by with the same offenders.

When that happens -- those who play at a reasonable pace will suffer and likely head for other pastures to play.

I'm not suggesting four hour golf is doable immediately -- but management can start a concerted effort to lower the time line with just a few steps.

1). Have rangers / staff positioned in those areas of the course where bottlenecks can and do happen.

2). Let me point a BIG TIME FALLACY -- most people playing don't see to know that rounds played in five plus hours are not what golf is about. THAT REQUIRES EDUCATION AND WHEN NEEDED ENFORCEMENT.

3). Management must insist that reasonable spread tee times are the norm. You can't have people playing in less than 10 minutes intervals. It just means Manhattan-like gridlock conditions with the slightest burp.

4). The notion that because you are at a public course and after paying your fee you CAN DO WHAT YOU WANT WHEN YOU WANT is the biggest crock I have heard. We don't permit people to scream and yell in movie theaters simply because they have paid and there are a host of other examples that can be provided on this score. If you want to get things moving then you need to attack the worst 5-10% of the offenders and have them RE-EDUCATED or BOOTED off. Simple as that.

John K Moore, I don't doubt time is lost for many courses but unless staff pays a concerted effort on the issue the net result will invariable be what you mentioned. Most places care very little about pace of play -- they run like madmen though when you are presenting your charge card for the fees though.

Education can help matters greatly -- ditto the idea that courses need to be some sort of food festival with vehicles of all types and stripes feeding players at just about every intersection on the course.

Rangers, as I previously opined, are generally well-intentioned (save for the retired cop / military types who are in love with the barking management style) but often ill-suited and not sufficiently orientated on how to approach people.

Slow play is NOT a priority for most places -- and sadly, that includes plenty of private layouts here in the States. The game is dying because people value their free time and standing on a tee watching someone move sod far further than the ball is a bit discouraging -- ditto those folks who are looking for a ball with more dedication than our troops are looking for Osama bin laden.

Management runs the show -- they either use the keys or the inmate take over.

Simple as that ...

[John Moore II]

JKM:

DAMN! I was hoping you had some magic bullet for all of this. You see, Lou's experience at Costa Mesa (SoCal) is replicated at my home course Santa Teresa (NorCal). On weekends for sure, most weekdays too, pace is glacial, 5.5 hours is considered fast, and the tee sheet is packed no matter what.  It's rather a matter of supply and demand; too many golfers, too few public courses.

This place keeps 7 minute intervals... sigh....

So is the answer really that we're just screwed?  I have always thought so.. it just hurt to read it from someone in the business.

 

Tom--I didn't mean to make it sound hopeless, though in many ways, for public courses like those, it just might be. I mean, like you said, a lot of golfers and not a lot of affordable public courses. If they can keep the sheet packed and even slightly limit the number of complaints, they are fine. Where are the people going to go? The people can either play there for cheap, go somewhere where they might play a bit faster but pay double the fee, or just stop playing. Most will choose the first choice.

As far as pace of play, you can change it, you can make play faster. You can go with longer intervals between tee times, adequate marshalls on course, eliminate 'time-wasting' features from the course (i.e. deep bunkers, excessive trees, bushes, high grass, etc.) and some other things. But at the public courses we are speaking of, if they are able to pack the tee sheet every day, why would they do this?




Tim Nugent--I was being sarcastic with the 8 hour round. I understand the mathematics of the situation. Its just that eventually rounds taper off, people don't book teetimes 2 weeks prior for 6pm expecting to play 18 holes. Those people who tee off that late just kind of call the day of and show up randomly. The latest I have ever seen a packed sheet was about 4pm. So, we were booked solid from 7am until 4 pm. On the longest summer days in NC, you can still see (barely) at 9pm to finish. So, as long as I can keep the pace around 5 hours in the evening, I am fine. Its rare that the sheet is that solid. I just meant it to mean that as long as I can keep the sheet filled and all the groups finishing before dark, I'm fine with whatever pace we manage to have.

Now, at a members club, yeah, you have to marshall pace because you have to see these people every day. But they tend to marshall themselves anyway.

[Tom Huckaby]

JKM:  oh well... many have inquired for many years about making the intervals longer... studies have been given to management... Charlie Yates stuff... to no avail.  There remains nothing in it for them to change anything.  One person complains, 10 more step up to take his tee time.

It does rather suck.

[D_Malley]

currently working on a policy for my club, please tell me what you guys think of this:

Steps to be taken when slow play occurs:

1)If a group is not keeping up as they should, then the Ranger will issue a verbal warning to them and monitor the situation to make sure the group catches up.

2)If a group has been previously warned and continues to violate the pace of play policy, then the Ranger will ask the group in violation to pick up and move back into proper position on the course.

3)If for any reason the group refuses to adhere to this policy they must be removed from the course.

[Tim Nugent]

John, sorry if I took you too literal.  I just used that example to illustrate how a Laffer supply/demand or in this case $$$/demand optimization works.  It's one reason for higher greens fees.  Personally, when I play I don't get fixated on the time.  I just want the group in front of me to keep moving and I'll keep up.  If that is 5 hrs and they are moving, so be it, I don't care.  The reason I golf is to enjoy myself.  If it is 3.5hrs and I have to wait on shots, that bugs me.

One other thing I forgot to mention is pull carts.  We used to have some old crappy pull carts.  not many were used.  Then we switched out to some nice Sun Mountain 3-wheel, beverage holder, wheel brake carts and more people began to use them - even with a higher rental rate.  Having played alot across the pond where there doesn't seem to be such a stigma attached to trolleys, there use really speeds up play.  Plus, more people over here could use the exercise.  Ihave always played better when I can wlak up to my ball and decide what to play as I do so rather than just driving up and getting out.  That's when it feels like "okay, where am I?, how far?  where's the pin?, etc.

D-Malley, sounds typical for a private club.  Don't think it has much use in public/resort as the players tend to be different - especially if there are lots of courses to choose from.

I don't think a private club should ever need a ranger.  All they need is a rule that you can hit into an offending group if they won't let you play through.

[John Moore II]

JKM:  oh well... many have inquired for many years about making the intervals longer... studies have been given to management... Charlie Yates stuff... to no avail.  There remains nothing in it for them to change anything.  One person complains, 10 more step up to take his tee time.

It does rather suck.

Yeah, I mean, at least you understand where they are coming from. There really is nothing in it for them to drastically improve pace of play. I mean, yes, you could probably get more golfers in the course using 9 minute intervals if you could keep the pace right around 4 hours than you can with 7 minute intervals and 5.5 hour rounds. But, the increase in number of golfers is going to come in the afternoon, a time when most courses drop the rates down. So, while the pace is faster and maybe even a few more golfers, with the drop in rates through the day, you might see a net decrease in revenue. Like we've said though, there isn't any good reason for them to want to speed up play.

They have a packed tee sheet of paying customers and are having to turn people away for starting times. Honestly, what more can a course operator want?

currently working on a policy for my club, please tell me what you guys think of this:

Steps to be taken when slow play occurs:

1)If a group is not keeping up as they should, then the Ranger will issue a verbal warning to them and monitor the situation to make sure the group catches up.

2)If a group has been previously warned and continues to violate the pace of play policy, then the Ranger will ask the group in violation to pick up and move back into proper position on the course.

3)If for any reason the group refuses to adhere to this policy they must be removed from the course.

This is exactly the system we had at Mid South. It worked well. We very rarely had to warn a group more than once. I never had to move a group back into position though some of the other people did. And I don't think they've ever had to escort someone off the course for slow play. It works.

[Garland Bayley]

...
1) get rid of OB.  Stroke and distance is a killer.  Just play it as a lateral.  the penalty is the same.
...

Guess you don't understand the rules of golf!

[John Moore II]

...
1) get rid of OB.  Stroke and distance is a killer.  Just play it as a lateral.  the penalty is the same.
...

Guess you don't understand the rules of golf!

The penalty is more or less the same, they are both 1 stroke penalties. So just drop up near to where you think the ball went out and carry on. Don't return to the tee, hit provisionals and that crap. We're talking daily play here, not tournaments.

We did away with all (well most) of our out of bounds at Mid South. Residential property was not out of bounds. It was played as a Temporary Immovable Obstruction, allows players a free drop outside of the property and back on the golf course. It works pretty well.

[Garland Bayley]

...
1) get rid of OB.  Stroke and distance is a killer.  Just play it as a lateral.  the penalty is the same.
...

Guess you don't understand the rules of golf!

The penalty is more or less the same, they are both 1 stroke penalties. So just drop up near to where you think the ball went out and carry on. Don't return to the tee, hit provisionals and that crap. We're talking daily play here, not tournaments.

We did away with all (well most) of our out of bounds at Mid South. Residential property was not out of bounds. It was played as a Temporary Immovable Obstruction, allows players a free drop outside of the property and back on the golf course. It works pretty well.

Sorry John,

Played as a lateral, my next stroke is #3. Whereas played as OB I could only have reached there in 3, and my next stroke is #4.

[Tom Huckaby]

JKM:

Oh I get where the course operators are coming from without a doubt.  It's just been ruefully funny to me that when this has been discussed previously, a common response is "vote with your feet"... "tell them to screw themselves"... etc.  As if that will have any effect other than biting off my nose to spite my face....

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()