[Garland Bayley]

Post this sign in obvious places in the club house and around the course.

Unless you are a tour pro, You're not good enough to play slow!*

*Tour pros can make 100 breaking 3 foot putts in a row. Unless you can do that, you can't hit the ball on the right line at the right speed to require more than a quick read of the break of your putt.

*Tour pros can hit shots to distances in increments well under 5 yards. Unless you can do that you don't need to know your yardage more accurately than 5 yard increments.

*The way you see golf played on TV is not how golf has been played historically. It is an artifact of large sums of money being available for prizes.

[Ted Kramer]

Love it!!!!

Post this sign in obvious places in the club house and around the course.

Unless you are a tour pro, You're not good enough to play slow!*

*Tour pros can make 100 breaking 3 foot putts in a row. Unless you can do that, you can't hit the ball on the right line at the right speed to require more than a quick read of the break of your putt.

*Tour pros can hit shots to distances in increments well under 5 yards. Unless you can do that you don't need to know your yardage more accurately than 5 yard increments.

*The way you see golf played on TV is not how golf has been played historically. It is an artifact of large sums of money being available for prizes.

[John Moore II]

The normal pace at Bandon of late has been 4:00 to 4:10. We are less familiar with the course, there is more trouble, we aren't rushing home to see the kids, and we keep up. On the rare occasion when we get behind a slow patch and have to wait a lot and it takes 4.5 or more then something is wrong.

Tim, with all due respect, the average time at BDGR these days is nowhere near your 4:00. You and your boys are way ahead of the curve. On a normal day here are the averages: Bandon Dunes - 4:30, Pacific Dunes - 4:45, and Bandon Trails - 4:50. And having played 10 holes at Old Macdonald, knowing that course and it's difficulty, you're looking 5:00 at the current rates.

Ken - I know the numbers I gave are probably lower than the average at Bandon.  We've been fortunate enough to be first off a few times and also played some late evening round at 5:00PM or so when there aren't many out there.  The afternoon rounds at 12 or 1 have definitely been the slowest.

My initial point, from which I originally strayed, is that when we are talking about resorts like Bandon lets try to solve the problem of a 4 or 4:15 hour round - not a 3.5 hour round.  3.5 is probably not only unachievable, but quite possibly as undesirable for as many people as a 5 hour round.

Tim--I have to ask. Why on earth would a 3.5 hour round be undesirable? For my money, the faster a round of golf can be played, the better.

I frankly think that the time it takes to play 18 holes (and the courses really disliking anyone who wants to play only 9) is one of the major reasons that the number of rounds played is on the decline.

I mean, lets look at it: if it takes 4.5 hours to play, it probably took 30 minutes to get to the course and also 30 minutes to get home. You also probably figure on getting to the course 30 minutes before the teetime. So, thats 6 hours. That only goes up when rounds take longer and if the person wants to hit some range balls before the round and have a drink with the boys after the round. Cut the round time down to 3.5 hours and thats a full hour less time away from home.

So, please tell me why a 3.5 hour round is undesirable?

[jeffwarne]

  My wife, a 30-handicapper, can hit two or three shots in the time I've observed it requires some idiots to get through a pre-shot routine.

Perhaps your wife should work on her preshot routine
Sorry I couldn't resist

[Tim Bert]

The normal pace at Bandon of late has been 4:00 to 4:10. We are less familiar with the course, there is more trouble, we aren't rushing home to see the kids, and we keep up. On the rare occasion when we get behind a slow patch and have to wait a lot and it takes 4.5 or more then something is wrong.

Tim, with all due respect, the average time at BDGR these days is nowhere near your 4:00. You and your boys are way ahead of the curve. On a normal day here are the averages: Bandon Dunes - 4:30, Pacific Dunes - 4:45, and Bandon Trails - 4:50. And having played 10 holes at Old Macdonald, knowing that course and it's difficulty, you're looking 5:00 at the current rates.

Ken - I know the numbers I gave are probably lower than the average at Bandon.  We've been fortunate enough to be first off a few times and also played some late evening round at 5:00PM or so when there aren't many out there.  The afternoon rounds at 12 or 1 have definitely been the slowest.

My initial point, from which I originally strayed, is that when we are talking about resorts like Bandon lets try to solve the problem of a 4 or 4:15 hour round - not a 3.5 hour round.  3.5 is probably not only unachievable, but quite possibly as undesirable for as many people as a 5 hour round.

Tim--I have to ask. Why on earth would a 3.5 hour round be undesirable? For my money, the faster a round of golf can be played, the better.

I frankly think that the time it takes to play 18 holes (and the courses really disliking anyone who wants to play only 9) is one of the major reasons that the number of rounds played is on the decline.

I mean, lets look at it: if it takes 4.5 hours to play, it probably took 30 minutes to get to the course and also 30 minutes to get home. You also probably figure on getting to the course 30 minutes before the teetime. So, thats 6 hours. That only goes up when rounds take longer and if the person wants to hit some range balls before the round and have a drink with the boys after the round. Cut the round time down to 3.5 hours and thats a full hour less time away from home.

So, please tell me why a 3.5 hour round is undesirable?

Did you read my first post on this thread?  Not the one quoted here.  I thought I laid out pretty clearly why I thought it would be undesirable for me.   If you didn't read that post, then I think quoting me as saying a 3.5 hour round is undesirable is a bit misleading.  I play in 3.5 all the time at my home course.  I like to play timely golf, but not rushed golf.  Based on my experience of approximately 20 rounds at Bandon, I believe the rounds THERE would feel rushed and less enjoyable at 3.5.

I don't expect everyone to agree with me, but I also don't want folks to read that little blurb and interpret that I'm loving slow play.

[Kevin Pallier]

Sorry - I haven't read through 4 pages but my suggestions (if already covered) would be:
1. Remove distance markers from sprinkler heads
2. Have clubs play more par / stableford comps as opposed to "stroke play"
3. Shorten tee times to around 6min. intervals

[John Moore II]

Sorry - I haven't read through 4 pages but my suggestions (if already covered) would be:
1. Remove distance markers from sprinkler heads
2. Have clubs play more par / stableford comps as opposed to "stroke play"
3. Shorten tee times to around 6min. intervals

Please, for the love of all things, tell me that the 6 minute tee time intervals comment is a typo? If its not a typo, tell me how putting MORE people on the course with closer spacing will speed up play?

[Doug Siebert]

One thing several have mentioned here that I've seen myself is the people who have an attitude of "I paid for my round, I'm entltled to take my time".

No one would think of applying similar logic to say a football game.  See how long you last for a sold out game if you lay down lengthwise across 4 seats!

The difference, of course, is that with a football ticket you are assigned a seat, which limits the space you can take up.

The problem with tee times is that they specify a start time but do not specify a FINISH TIME!  So how about selling tee times for 10AM-2PM, and when golfers ask about it, you tell them that they are entitled to play until 2PM, if they are not finished they will be summarily booted off the course.

If they protest about waiting on golfers in front, then you tell them about the clocks calibrated to your tee time on every teebox so you can see how you are progressing, which include a call button to call the clubhouse if you are falling behind due to waiting on the group in front.

Doesn't solve the problem of educating slow players how to play faster, but it would certainly serve notice on those making tee times that the course in question is serious about maintaining a 4 hour pace!

[Kevin Pallier]

3. Shorten tee times to around 6min. intervals

Please, for the love of all things, tell me that the 6 minute tee time intervals comment is a typo? If its not a typo, tell me how putting MORE people on the course with closer spacing will speed up play?

John

The simple old adage...keep up to the group in front.

Could you tell me the opposite - how longer tee intervals will speed up play ?

[Carl Nichols]

At my course, we have different targets depending on the tee time:  if you play before 7:30, you're expected to finish in 3:40; up to and including 8am, it's 3:50; and after 8am, and at all other times, it's 4:00.  This has created a culture where 4:00 isn't viewed as fast but as somewhat slow, since every day you can see an entire hour of groups (at 8 minute intervals) finishing in under 4:00.  I think this, or some modification of it, could work at any course, public or private.

We also employ the system mentioned by Pat Mucci -- groups are timed as they come off the course and noted on a tee sheet.  If a group finishes in significantly more than 4 hours, their names are posted in the locker room.  This system, as Pat mentioned, works better at a place with repeat customers.

Taken together, it's a rare day when a round takes more than 4 hrs at my course.

[Cliff Hamm]

3. Shorten tee times to around 6min. intervals

Please, for the love of all things, tell me that the 6 minute tee time intervals comment is a typo? If its not a typo, tell me how putting MORE people on the course with closer spacing will speed up play?

John

The simple old adage...keep up to the group in front.

Could you tell me the opposite - how longer tee intervals will speed up play ?

By simple mathematics longer spaced tee times generally speed up play.  For example when I last played Belgrade Lakes in Maine with 15 minute tee times never waited.  Think of it this way if tee times were spaced 2 hours apart no one would possibly ever wait.  All things being equal the further apart tee times are the better the pace.  If you're looking to play a public course in less than 4 hr likely not true but otherwise my experience has been that it makes a difference.

[Lou_Duran]

I would love to know if Mr. Lesnik has picked up any useful information from this post that he or his people didn't already have.

My sense is that the solutions are so difficult because the problem (s) are not simple.  As others have noted, golf is a "big world".  One's ideal of a 3 hour round (my personal preference) is a series of unenjoyable 100 yard dashes for many of the multi-cultural golfers at Costa Mesa CC (muni).  And when you premium price a course like many if not all of Mr. Lesnik's courses under management, it is hard to tell an occasional golfer who has just plopped down a couple C-notes that he needs to pick up his ball and move to the next tee.  TOC did this back a few years ago, but I wonder if with today's economic realities even these no nonesense, humorless marshalls haven't adopted a different tone.

Perhaps Mr. Lesnik can have one of his people summarize the best practices for resort and public access courses, and what they consider an optimum speed of play range.  Though it is no doubt tied to the characteristics of the individual courses, I would guess that 4:15 to 4:45 is pretty good, but perhaps a bit aggressive during peak times.

I suspect that it is a different picture for private clubs where a fast play culture can be established through time.  I am aware of two busy private clubs where it seldom takes more than four hours to play even during peak times.  Peer pressure plays an important role here.
 

[jeffwarne]

Sorry - I haven't read through 4 pages but my suggestions (if already covered) would be:
1. Remove distance markers from sprinkler heads
2. Have clubs play more par / stableford comps as opposed to "stroke play"
3. Shorten tee times to around 6min. intervals

Kevin,
If you think shortening intervals between tee times will speed up play,
you obviously have no experience in the business.
a 6 minute interval means you will wait on EVERY shot so no matter what the pace is, you will be miserable.
I've seen 4 groups together (the only groups on the tee sheet for that day) follow each other  right off the tee(6-7 minute intervals), play in 3:45, and the last 3 groups come in screaming about the pace of play!
(if you go right off after a group is just out of range and the group behind you does the same-you're screwed)

Putting visible 150 markers i.e. stakes or something vertical (off to the sides- not the center)is a good substitute for sprinklers as it allows estimation as opposed to running around looking for sprinklers.

no stroke play is also a good suggestion

[archie_struthers]

 


It's pretty obvious slow play is anathema in a world where no one seems to want to sit still......a whole generation golfers under 40   doesn't play much... because their time demands for kids ....business or whatever are too great , or perceived as such by them or a significant other  ...a very small minority who typically play slow lead the resistance....but slow play has definitelyhurt golf

As stated , it's harder to control play at public venues, peer pressure is non-existent , so rangers , professionals need to be extra talented to move slow groups along.....perhaps the dip in most IRA's will bring some skillful negotiators into the field , perhaps not...LOL   rangers as part time fore caddies is highly recommended , but again , some players react badly to scrutiny , sometimes it needs one of the professionals . who tend to get treated differently


I can say from personal experience that a continued emphasis on moving , even so much as giving some material or at least a pat on the back to those who move, works....as stated our club Greate Bay at the Jersey Shore  (willlie park jr 1923)   has octogenarians with bad knees playing in 3 1/2 to 4 hours all summer long.  It  can be done , and you'd be amazed how many visitors to our place remark how great the flow is !

[Anthony Gray]

  North Berwick

 

[Garland Bayley]

I hope everyone understood that by obvious places I meant above the urinals.

Post this sign in obvious places in the club house and around the course.

Unless you are a tour pro, You're not good enough to play slow!*

*Tour pros can make 100 breaking 3 foot putts in a row. Unless you can do that, you can't hit the ball on the right line at the right speed to require more than a quick read of the break of your putt.

*Tour pros can hit shots to distances in increments well under 5 yards. Unless you can do that you don't need to know your yardage more accurately than 5 yard increments.

*The way you see golf played on TV is not how golf has been played historically. It is an artifact of large sums of money being available for prizes.

[John Moore II]

3. Shorten tee times to around 6min. intervals

Please, for the love of all things, tell me that the 6 minute tee time intervals comment is a typo? If its not a typo, tell me how putting MORE people on the course with closer spacing will speed up play?

John

The simple old adage...keep up to the group in front.

Could you tell me the opposite - how longer tee intervals will speed up play ?

With 6 minute intervals, you will keep up with the group in front, thats for sure. You'll be a$$hole to bellybutton with them and the group behind you all day. 6 minute intervals would put more groups on the course, making for more opportunities for slow play.

First a 6 minute interval could not work because it would take more than 6 minutes for a group to clear the fairway in such a way that the next group could tee off. Second, the spacing will get worse on the first par 3 of the day where a group will typically take 12ish minutes to play the hole. So, just after the first group moves off the tee, another comes up and before the group can clear the green, another will be on the tee.
With the 6 minute spacings, you'll have waits on just about every tee. It would be like a shotgun start where they do 2 groups on each tee.

Not to mention, 6 minute intervals would not be efficient because the course would have to have more carts on hand to accommodate the additional tee times. You'd need 80 carts instead of 72 (or less, you need at least 70 to manage a course with 7/8 minute tee times, figuring on a 4 hour round, plus time to clean the cart and get the next group to the tee on time). So, 8-10 more carts at a cost of roughly $3000 each, that's a significant expense, not likely to be made up for with close tee time intervals.

But with the 6 minute intervals, you'd have to have a standard pace of 3 hours (meaning you average 10 minutes per hole, so the group in the fairway would be gone by the time the next group got on the tee, though it may still back up a little bit on the par 3's.) in order to get players around. If everyone on the course could maintain 3 hours pace, you'd be fine with those short intervals, but let one group play in anything more than 3:15, the whole day will be destroyed to no end. The first group of the day could play in 3:15 and the last group that teed off 6 hours later on a fully booked day would not finish in 5:30.

Oh, my one minute lost per group figure works for 9 minute tee time intervals, with 10 minute intervals, you might only lose 30 seconds (if any time at all) per group. But with 8 or 7 minute intervals, the time loss will be greater because due to spacing there will simply be more waiting.

[AndrewB]

Tournament golf is bearable again: NCGA Pace of Play Policy.

[Matt Day]

as a manager of a 36 hole facility doing 170,000 rounds per annum, this thread has been great reading.

We work off six minute tee times, and manage on average to get groups round in about 4:30 to 4:45 on weekends. It could be better but its not as bad as some.

We are taking over golf operations in September, and hopefully this will allow us to get a more hands on approach to marshalling and other initiatives to improve the speed of play.

[John Moore II]

as a manager of a 36 hole facility doing 170,000 rounds per annum, this thread has been great reading.

We work off six minute tee times, and manage on average to get groups round in about 4:30 to 4:45 on weekends. It could be better but its not as bad as some.

We are taking over golf operations in September, and hopefully this will allow us to get a more hands on approach to marshalling and other initiatives to improve the speed of play.

Matt--Where is this facility (my guess would be Northern Florida, but I could be wrong)? 170,000 per year over 36 holes is the highest number I have ever heard. Thats a lot of golfers.


ATTENTION PATRICK MUCCI.
I hope you read this. Since you always claim that courses who pull in more than about 35,000 rounds are in the extreme minority. Take a look at that. 170,000 over 2 courses amounts to 85,000 per course. Perhaps in the world of your high end private clubs, courses don't turn more than 20,000 rounds a year, but in the real world of public courses, especially in places where golf is played year round, 35,000 rounds per year and even 50,000 rounds per year is no more an outlier than Liberty National getting only 5,000 rounds in 2007.

[Matt Day]

John
We are in Perth, Western Australia so a little bit away from Florida 

Golf here is affordable and the weather so good that particpation levels are still strong. Their's an 18 hole course no more than ten minutes from me doing around 95,000 rounds per annum.

We are talking about courses that are around 6100-6200 yards long, maintained reasonably well that cost you no more than $28 (Aussie dollars) for a game on the weekend

[Rob Rigg]

Longer tee time intervals also opens up the "play through" option.

If everyone is "nose to butt" then it is difficult for a "slow" group to accept the fact that they are slow.

If there is acres of space in front of them then they will be more apt to allow people to play through, because then they can keep doddling along.

Playing through isnt't necessarily a great thing - I know - but if the gaps are large enough it can be beneficial.

[Kevin Pallier]

Kevin,
If you think shortening intervals between tee times will speed up play,
you OBVIOUSLY have no experience in the business.
a 6 minute interval means you will wait on EVERY shot so no matter what the pace is, you will be miserable.
I've seen 4 groups together (the only groups on the tee sheet for that day) follow each other  right off the tee(6-7 minute intervals), play in 3:45, and the last 3 groups come in screaming about the pace of play!
(if you go right off after a group is just out of range and the group behind you does the same-you're screwed)

Putting visible 150 markers i.e. stakes or something vertical (off to the sides- not the center)is a good substitute for sprinklers as it allows estimation as opposed to running around looking for sprinklers.

no stroke play is also a good suggestion

Jeff

Just 20 years of experience - playing same in my local club competition. No experience "obviously" !

I hardly ever have to wait for shots - sometimes in "strokeplay" events but that's to be expected with handicap ranges.

Club rounds of 3.45 - 4 hrs are norm. The club has a "gap group" every hour in the time sheet to accomodate a potential build up.

John K.

We don't have excessive cart use at our club. The odd one here and there - most of it is walk traffic and we get though fine. I was out with the first group on the weekend (a 3ball)  and we finished our round in three hours flat.

240/18 = an average of 13.3 mins a hole. That's about right with a mix of P3's to P5's. We have 4 P5's and 6 P3's and one  normally arrives at the tee on the later only to wait for the group in front to finish but a few putts.

As aforementioned - it's worked at our club for the 20 years of my experience....and we dont have the luxury of a two tee start.

I couldn't imagine playing at a club with 10 min spacings - surely there's more gaps between groups at the end of the round ?

[Joe Hancock]

Matt,

By my calculations, you'd have to tee off 4- foursomes every 8 minutes for 10 hours straight each day, 365 days per year to achieve 85,000 rounds (all approximations). That wouldn't leave any rain days or anything.

Wow. Great climate, great client base.

Joe

[James Bennett]

John
We are in Perth, Western Australia so a little bit away from Florida 

Golf here is affordable and the weather so good that particpation levels are still strong. Their's an 18 hole course no more than ten minutes from me doing around 95,000 rounds per annum.

We are talking about courses that are around 6100-6200 yards long, maintained reasonably well that cost you no more than $28 (Aussie dollars) for a game on the weekend

Matt

sounds like Wembley to me.  Played there in 1976 when it was 27 holes.  The 'better' 18 got to me over a 72 hole Schoolby tournament.  The sandy rough was very difficult to recover from.  The other 9 was played one night after golf, and it was a lot of fun.

James B

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