Re: Fenway

[Mike_Cirba]

Jeff,

And you didn't even mention the greens, which are the best, most-varied, and interestingly contoured of any I've seen from Tiliinghast.  

[Mike_Cirba]

Jeff,

You're absolutely right.  The greens at Fenway stand up to any greens by anyone, anywhere.  They are that special.

[GeoffreyC]

Jeff

Sorry we missed you yesterday at Fenway.

Fenway plays well over 6700 yards now.  The back tee on #2 stretches to to about 460 uphill and we played the new back tee on #5 that can make it play up to 490 with a back pin position.  

What's wrong with #6.  We played all the way back (245) and it was a cut driver followed by a 20 foot putt for birdie      

Fenway is awesome.  Remove a bunch of trees to give vistas of the whole property and its even better.

[brad_miller]

Jeff, we were somewhere behind you yesterday, YES Fenway is one heck of a course. Having played most of Tille's stuff save for Somerset and Five Farms, the best way for Fenway to show off, (differentiate itself) the wonderful ground features and green complexes would be to open it up somewhat like SFGC! This would also help given the size and scale of the property. Don't ask me, they just need to ask the guy that has given new life to those great green complexes. The combo green complex of 8 and 12 is one of the coolist things  I've seen in golf.

Never again will I play #6 form 250 yards (uphill) although Geoff Childs may, he made birdie with driver and 20 foot put!!

[GeoffreyC]

Me! I kept insisting it was an eagle  

[brad_miller]

Geoff I was trying to let the world know of how you played 6, at least we both agreed it was a 20 footer

[GeoffreyC]

Thanks Brad- It was a nice day.  Next time lets get there when its dry and warm.  The huge rainstorms the day before took some fire out of the greens and run in the fairways.  It made those 450-480 yard par 4's play a bit long.

[brad_miller]

There to long for me even if it's playing F&F

[George Bahto]

..... for however little it may be worth, Fenway became one of my favorite courses the first time i saw it and then Gil went in and spun his magic and made it so much better.

[GeoffreyC]

George- same here. I loved Fenway the first time I played it about 10-12 years ago.  I hadn't played it for about two years so when and  when I first saw what Gil had transformed it into I was stunned by such a fantastic restoration.

[corey miller]

Geoff-I know you have explained the golfweek rating system a few times to me.  On another thread Brad klein mentions and describes the walk in the park test.  would this be fenways weakest point?  The cramped nature of the property? Playing so many holes along peoples back yards?

[Matt_Ward]

Had the oppportunity to play Fenway for the first time in 15 years with Brad Miller and Geoffrey Childs and I have to say it's a course that's way too undervalued when course ratings are mentioned.

The facility has been artfully restored throught the efforts of Gil Hanse and the inherent design qualities that made Tillinghast a top flight architect are there for all to see. The interplay between the bunkering and putting surfaces is simply first rate.

In regards to the "walk in the park" test Fenway is indeed no different than many courses you find in the older suburbs because of the amount of development that has encircled them over the years. The property is a sheer delight and walking it is pleasure. Without doubt, Fenway has better land than neighboring Winged Foot although both courses at WF are more demanding through and through.

The only weak aspect of the course, in my mind, is the 1st hole. However, keep in mind the revered Cypress Point has a weak link as well with the 18th hole there. I also don't believe the "tree issue" is that big a deal with Fenway. Yes, there can be some tweaking here and there (i.e. 5th / left side, 8th / left side (?), left side at the 9th, pulling out the small ones behind the 12th green, the over hang at #17 and some work on #18). If people really dig their heels in with the "tree issue" other courses such as Ridgewood (NJ) will take even more of a drop when evaluated.

Fenway competes, in my mind, at such a level that a case can be easily made that the depth of holes there are better than three other NY metro area courses currently ranked in the top 100 by GD with two of them also being Tillinghast layouts. They include the following:

Quaker Ridge
Somerset Hills
Maidstone

Fenway has enough diversity in all of its holes to thoroughly test all types of players. As far as Jeff Lewis' comment / re: 6th hole, I say leave the hole at 245 yards for those who have the b*lls to play it from there. GC had no problem with the hole yesterday after smashing a first rate driver to 20 feet and calmly stroking it home for a sweet two.

Unfortunately, they day we played was one day removed from a major rainstrom that hit the area in Saturday. Play Fenway under firm and fast conditions and you will be tested in order to properly control all of your shots -- especially on the greens!

I've played 92 of the current GD 100 Greatest listing and can't for the like of me believe Fenway isn't among that listing -- in fact, I'd say the course has serious credentials for even top 50 consideration.

I hope to return when conditions are a tad drier because the design ingredients will only be more magnified.

P.S. If for some reason the course could ever add on about 150-200 yards the demands would only be even more intense. As I said previously, I'd love to see Bethpage Black have the green contours you find at Fenway -- then you'd have the ultimate test for the world's best instead of the flat cookie-cutter types you find at too many holes at the Black.

[Matt_Ward]

Jeff L:

To be fair -- are you a member at QR?

Also, the land at Fenway is not that harsh although I don't doubt on a 90 degree plus day with humidity to match it can be strenuous for many. But, that can be said for a great many courses in the metro area.

When I say more length I talking specifically to a situation relating to the weak 1st. Granted, there's no way to add more yardage but there's a hole you can easily add on 100-150 yards if space permitted it. Adding on a few yards at some of the other holes is just a small point because I agree with you left as is the course offers plenty of diversity and shotmaking requirements.

I don't see QR by 3&2 over Fenway and will post my match analysis later today. If there are defenders of Maistone and Somerset I'd like to hear from you because I can't see the case being made for them being held at such a high level.

P.S. Jeff, please tell me if you see QR over Plainfield, Ridgewood (West & East) and Baltusrol (Lower). I'd like to get a read on where you're coming from.

Thanks ...

matt

[Paul Perrella]

  In my mind Fenway is to Winged Foot what NGLA is to Shinnecock. Not a US Open course but more fun to play on an everyday basis. The last four holes at Fenway are as diverse a group as you will see anywhere. Short dogleg left uphill, long dogleg right downhill, par 3 with enough H2O to keep it interesting and a tough(from the back tees) par 5.
  Not that it means much but when I complete the top 100 this course will be in my top 50. Although #15 may be my favorite hole, par 5's don't come any better than #3.

[Mike_Cirba]

Paul,

Great to see you back here!  How's everything in Albany?  

I would concur with you on Fenway, but felt that 17 and 18 were still a bit claustrophobic with tree impingement.  I do love the blind uphill second on 18, but it gets pretty narrow up there, as well.  Still, it finishes with yet another GREAT green.  

[Montegolf]

I am a frequent visitor to this site but this is my first time posting.  I also happen to be a brand new member at Fenway (just over a month to be exact).  

First, I think this is a terrific site.  I find it to be both entertaining and educational.  As someone who has recently begun to appreciate the nuances of golf course architecture, I find the discussion groups and commentary to be most interesting.

Second, regarding Fenway, it is wonderful to continually hear from those in the know (that's you guys) how terrific and underrated Fenway is.  As has been stated many times over, Fenway truly posesses one of the finest collections of green complexes ever constructed.  As someone pointed out the 8 & 12 shared complex is one of the best ever.  The greens are unique, brilliantly shaped, and beyond penal.  To give you some examples, I've had 8 and 15 ft. for eagle on 3 and have yet to make a birdie (I have by laying up).  I've also made a couple of double bogeys from just off the green on 15 lying 1 (my personal favorite hole with 3,7,& 10  close behind - although I'm still developing my opinions).  In fact, on 15 I've already followed up a birdie putt with a pretty good bunker shot to save bogey.  An up and down at Fenway is quite an achievement.  The greens are simply incredible (and I didn't even mention #11!)      

Another of my favorite things about Fenway is the variety of holes.  This was discussed in the golf course profile of Fenway on this site.  It has one of the best mixtures of par 3's and par 4's anywhere.  The three's are 145, 185, 200, & 245 and the 4's range from 290-300 to 450 -480 with plenty in between.  Talk about using every club in your bag!  

Regarding the layout and routing, save a couple of holes (1 and 18 come in particular - 18 only because of the second shot because I hate blind shots) I think it is as strong any.  I particularly love the look and feel of 7 & 10, two side-by-side dogleg left par 4's, 390 & 450 respectively, as well as 16, an awesome dogleg right par 4 that absolutely murders you if you're right off the tee.  Another beauty is 12 although they do need to take down one large tree 100 or so yards from the tee on the left side of the fairway that blocks what would be an awesome view.

Finally, Fenway is just really really really hard (I happen to like that).  I can't think of many courses where there is as much of a premium on strategy and course management.  As someone who plays in many of the top amateur events in the Met Area, I can tell you that Fenway is one of the toughest courses around.  This is evidenced by the scores in the Mittlemark Invitational, Fenway's annual 36 hole amateur stroke play tournament.  Last year, 153 (13 over par!) gave you a top 10 finish.  This year we are hosting the local qualifying for the US Mid Amateur and I predict 5 over par makes it (maybe higher).

Thanks again for this terrific site.  Keep up the good work!            

[Patrick_Mucci]

Montegolf,

Please share with your members the appreciation players have for the lending of their course for the Mittlemark and the
Mid-Am qualifier, it is very generous of them.

Quality sites also serve to expose contestants to great classic architecture.

Is Dave Muraskin still making his own clubs ?
I gave him a putter about thirty years ago and he almost won the State Open with it.  Tell him I said hello.

[Matt_Ward]

As promised a Fenway v. Quaker Ridge match play contest followed by a Fenway v. Somerset Hills match play contest.

1st Hole - QR 1 up
2nd Hole - Even
3rd Hole - Fenway 1 up
4th Hole - Even
5th Hole - Fenway 1 up
6th Hole - Even (barely an edge to QR!)
7th Hole - QR 1 up
8th Hole - QR 1 up
9th Hole - Even

10th Hole - Fenway 1 up
11th Hole - Fenway 2 up
12th Hole - Fenway 3 up
13th Hole - Fenway 2 up
14th Hole - Fenway 3 up
15th Hole - Fenway 2 up
16th Hole - Fenway 1 up
17th Hole - Fenway Even
18th Hole - Fenway & QR - Finish Even   I do concede an argument can be made that #18 favors QR but I see it as a draw on the home hole. And even if that did happen I believe an equal argument can be made that #17 at Fenway is a tad better than #17 at QR.

Fenway v. Somerset Hills

1st Hole - SH 1 up
2nd Hole - Even (sorry all you redan supporters!)
3rd Hole - Fenway 1 up
4th Hole - Even
5th Hole - Fenway 1 up
6th Hole - Fenway 2 up
7th Hole - Fenway 1 up
8th Hole - Even
9th Hole - Fenway 1 up

10th Hole - Fenway 2 up
11th Hole - Fenway 1 up (tough, tough call but SH barely)
12th Hole - Fenway 2 up
13th Hole - Fenway 3 up
14th Hole - Fenway 4 up
15th Hole - Fenway 3 up
16th Hole - Fenway 3 up
17th Hole - Fenway 2 up
18th Hole - Fenway 3 up

Final margin Fenway 3+1 over SH

Let the debate begin in earnest ...

[GeoffreyC]

Montegolf-  you are very lucky to have joined a great club.  Steve Frankel is doing a great job returning the course to its roots and I also commend him for opening up and showing hospitality to guests, tournaments and raters.  Heath Wassem is also a very special head pro (the food ain't bad either   )

I think the MET area is blessed by having the very best variety of Tillinghast's work.  From WF to QR to Fenway to Bethpage Black, they all belong on lists of the finest courses in the US.  Least I not forget there are Ridgeway, Somerset Hills and a course that's as sporty and fun to play as any is Rockaway Hunt.  I'm not sure what the purpose of this dissection of Fenway vs. QR vs. Somerset Hills is and what it can accomplish.  I can say with certainty that Fenway can stand up in tournament play to anyone.  Its greens complexes alone will give players fits and the variety of short game play will challenge Tiger and anyone else.  QR showed what it has during the Walker Cup (which I think Fenway could also show very well if it landed one).

[Matt_Ward]

Jeff:

When someone says they are a member of course "x" it's clear to me they will tend (if not deliberately then unconsciously) to favor their home course. You may disagree, but I believe there is some element of a truth to what I say. I don't belong to any club so I don't have the conflicts others might. I've played QR about 12 times over a period of 20 years so I can't say I've seen it to the level of others, but I have, I believe, gained a general understanding in what makes the course tick.

Let's be clear -- QR the toughest driving course in the Northeast. You're joking -- right! Have you forgot about Winged Foot / West right down the street? I could name a few others if you think that would help. In my mind QR is a wonderful parksland layout and has benefited by being located in Westchester. Many people have automatically assumed it's in the league with the big boys on the block (i.e. Winged Foot, et al). I don't doubt that QR is a tremendous course because of its Tillinghast roots, but to be always placed in the top 25-30 courses in the USA? That's a stretch in my opinion.

You say Fenway is "almost" as good as Somerset Hills. Please tell me how and in what way specifically that Fenway comes up short. I see it as no contest for Fenway and I do like Somerset. Fenway has the greater diversity of holes and places no less a general demand with the flat stick throughout the round. There are several holes at Somerset that serve merely as bystanders to the few ones of note.

You mention the 11th / QR and tout its credentials because it was picked by Golf Magazine -- does that then mean the 11th at Fenway is chump change? I don't doubt the 11th at QR is a good hole but I'll play that hole over and over again and compare my stroke average of that hole with the 11th at Fenway anyday of the week.

I also don't doubt the credentials of the 12th at QR but against Fenway's I see the issue as a close call but in Fenway's corner.

The problem I have with a number of courses deemed classics in the NY metro area is the relative assumption made by quite a few people that since "x" course has always been around and noted it should therefore be beyond serious analysis. I would also include Maidstone in this classification as I have with the other two although some have said to me I should be committed for stating such a point. So be it.

Jeff, help me understand where you see QR when stacked up against Plainfield, Ridgewood (E&W) and Baltusrol (Lower). I did ask this before and never got a direct answer. Your thoughts are most welcomed and always appreciated. Do you see QR being beyond WF East and West? I just want to know where you would place the course against other top layouts in the region.

Before signing off Jeff -- please note I have a high regard for QR but I think the margin of 3&2 you previously mentioned for QR over Fenway is a bit much. I'n my mind they're a toss-up.

Hope this helps ...

[brad_miller]

Jeff, I believe the ground features of Fenway to be better than those found at WF (W), only at #11 does the ground boggie, most of the other fairways are dead flat save for the downhill lie 2nd shot at #15. This doesn't mean it's a better course, WF and Riveria might be the two greatest courses built on "bland property" and at least the Riv has (had) the wash. But I agree completely on the issue of scale and grandor, this is where Fenway loses ground vs the other great Tillie designs. To tight, too many trees and lots of left off the tee OB. I still believe the best way to highlight the ground features of Fenway and show off the great green complexes is to OPEN UP the course, make it different from many of the other metro area tree farms. Fenway is wonderful, but opened up to look more like SFGC and Somerset (I'm told) it gets even better. How much better is WF (W) today than 2-3 years ago??

[Mark_Fine]

I'm anxious to join this discussion and will do so in a few days after I've played the golf course.  

Matt,
If you don't give #2 to Somerset Hills over Fenway's #2, I do have to shake my head as I believe #2 at SH is one of the most interesting par threes in the country, without question!!   Fenway's #2 must be unbelievable.  

I know you don't think as highly of SH because of the length but remember the average scratch golfer only hits it 250 or 260 on average (not 330) like you do    An as you very well know, there are other much more interesting ways to make golf courses challenging!  I had a very good discussion on this topic yesterday with Ron Prichard!  Restoring "width" coupled with firm greens and approaches are a classic courses best defense against the modern golfer.  
Mark

[Ran Morrissett]

Matt,

Space permitting, why would you even consider adding "100-150 yards" to the 1st hole? What would you hope to accomplish? Increase its resistance to scoring  , thanks to hitting in too long a club into a green designed for a short par four?

How did you actually play the 1st? Did you hit the fairway and pitch close and make birdie? Or perhaps even drive the green and make the putt for an eagle?

If anything, I wish they would shorten it a touch to goad more people into having a slash at it. I imagine that a lot of the double bogeys (and worse) on that hole occur when the player asks his caddie for driver on the tee.

Cheers,

[Matt_Ward]

Mark F:

To answer you question -- I do like Somerset Hills, but let's place the course in some sort of context. There are a number of fine holes at the Bernardsville layout, however, there are a number of them that are simply pedestrian. Does anyone believe the finishing holes at SH (minus #15) have real merit?

I also am not pitting my game against the course and observing it from that basis alone. I observe other people and how the course responds to what they do. My understanding is that SH recently added a bit more yardage and I am most curious to see what holes have been effected by these moves. Just because I prefer one course over another does not mean the course not favored is a turkey layout.

Tillinghast did a marvelous job with most of his designs and I always enjoy what he has procuded. I just believe Fenway is a bit more of a superior course than SH because of the greater range and demands of all of its holes minus the weak 1st. And, I do believe the greens at Fenway are no less than match for what one finds at SH. They are both demanding when firm and fast.

As far as the 2nd hole at SH goes it's a wonderful hole, but I don't believe it's as good as the 4th at NGLA when it comes to the redan type. The 2nd at Fenway plays 455 yards from the tips (make sure you cross the entrance road to access the back tee) and you must negotiate a sloping right-to-left fairway that pushes all balls in the direction of an out-of-bounds fence that runs the entire length of the hole. The second shot is slightly uphill and the green is well protected by two deep bunkers (check out the one on the left side of the green). In my mind Mark, it's a close call but I give the edge to the 2nd at Fenway. I'm sure others will disagree and go with SH. That's what makes America great.

There are issues at Fenway (some tree cutting is clearly needed in particular spots to provide the grandeur that Brad mentions) -- but, all in all, I believe the course is very underrated when compared to other Tillie designs in the metro area. Enjoy your day there and I'll be interested in your comments.

Jeff L:

My comments are only in response to what you originally posted. I have the highest respect for Quaker and believe it's one of the finest in America -- top 75 yes, top 25-30 no. I also believe sites like GCA are forums for discussion and analysis on all courses and that no course(s) are beyond review provided responders can elaborate on their reasons why. I think I've done that in regards to this thread. The comments I offered were strictly golf related and not in any way meant personally. Hope this helps ...

[brad_miller]

Matt, still have a question about #1, do you believe there are any good-great short par 4's that play around 300 yards, I not saying that this hole is one, but the concept of throwing extra yardage just for the sake of the card is not one that I agree with. The beauty of a great short 4 is to tempt and create a risk/reward situation, that when bogey or worst is written on the card totally frustrates Hope this helps