Will push up greens make a comeback ?

[Brett Morris]

I would think that could be true. But my twist on it would be that the USGA's intent was to streamline the method to make it cheaper and faster as well. Matching the layers wasnt necessarily "hard". A third layer just took that much more time, that much more money and that much more space to stockpile. The 3 layer method worked, and it still works. But kudos to the USGA for continually researching and developing faster and more cost effective ways to get the job done.

I agree that the USGA intent was to make the construction process cheaper.  Matching sand to gravel to ensure that bridging and permeability factors perform as they are required to can be done by any Superintendent with a particle size breakdown of their sand and gravel, and some log graph paper.  The choker layer is not required if the sand and gravel meet a number of certain factors.  It will ensure that the greens perform to what is desired of a USGA green originally: Drainage.

The elimination of the choker layer reduces cost. 

[Jeff Goldman]

Patrick,

In the summer of 2007 in Chicago, we paid about $5.40 per sq. ft. for a 5000 sq. ft. USGA green, all in (bunkers were $2.70/sq.ft.), not including the seed, which isn't much.  The cost might have gone down if we were building more than one, and this was part of a larger project, so certain costs might have been shifted to this or from this to other places by the bidder. 

I'm not sure all of what would not have been put into a push up green, but the gravel layer cost about $4400, not including the cost of sending it out for testing.

Jeff

[TEPaul]

Has anyone on this thread yet considered the fact that in the last twenty years or so the push-up green (in some regions where they really can work well) probably has made quite the comeback? 

[John Moore II]

Has anyone on this thread yet considered the fact that in the last twenty years or so the push-up green (in some regions where they really can work well) probably has made quite the comeback? 

Thats an interesting thing to think about. But another thing to think about, looking at these same regions, did push-up greens really fall out of favor? Like in coastal Florida where the soil is sandy, the Nebraska/Colorado sandhills, Jersey, etc. Did push-up type greens ever go out of style down there for a 'comeback'to be necessary? That has been one of my thoughts from the beginning. In places with soil that is condicive to quality drainage and allowing a push-up green, I feel they may have never fallen into disuse.

[Donnie Beck]

Has anyone on this thread yet considered the fact that in the last twenty years or so the push-up green (in some regions where they really can work well) probably has made quite the comeback? 

I was hinting at that but no one wanted to respond to my post.

[TEPaul]

JohnK and Donnie:

After reading some of the history of the USGA spec green it seems to me maybe pushup type green construction has made something of a comeback since more now apparently realize where they can work well and where they can't. It's probably true to say that in the old days they were being used in areas where we know now they didn't work that well. It looks to me like most of the reason for the USGA spec green is it really is a construction (drainage and soil) model that can well work anywhere in the world in any type of site. I don't know that the USGA ever promoted that it was the best method anywhere in the world just that it really could work anywhere in the world.

[Ian Larson]

Gentlemen:

I would really like to know how a pushup green which is fitted with a drainage system compares to one without drainage and compares to a USGA green?  My course has pushup greens which were retrofitted with a drainage system - is this really worthwhile?  It is my understanding that changing the contours of the green could be difficult because of the drainage system - is that correct? 

Cheers, Jerry

Jerry,

Sorry it took me awhile to get back to this question you asked me answer. I took the lady up to Santa Barbera wine country for the weekend and she made me swear I wouldnt spend any time on GCA talking about sand and dirt 


The difference between a soil pushup with and without a drainage system compared to a USGA spec or modified green....


The biggest difference is in the gravel layer and its function in the green.

With a soil push-up the super is at the mercy of how well the green drains based on the existing soil characteristics. Always praying that water will shed off the surface drainage contours and that infiltrating water will perk at a decent rate.

A soil push-up with internal drainage is even better. The internal drainage pipes create lines of differing pressures where water is always naturally working towards because water will always follow the path of least resistance. The water works itself into the drainage lines instantly escaping the greens profile and becoming irrelevant to the greens health.

Weve already killed the USGA beast on this thread enough, we all know how that works and why its good by now. But there is the difference between the USGA and a push-up with drains...

The gravel layer. The gravel layer is not there just to separate the sand from the drain lines. It acts as a pressure equalizer across the green creating a consistent water perk rate across the green profile. All of the larger macropres between the gravel bits creates a substantial difference in hydraulic pressure in the profile pulling any tertiary water in the profile down into the pipes where it becomes irrelevant to the greens health. Consistently across the green.

Where this differs with a push-up is that the push-up doesnt have this equalizer underneath to draw water down. The perk rate of the water is just dependent on the existing soil characteristics. It could perk fast, it could perk slow. It will probably perk at different rates across the greens profile. But the drainlines do improve this. Not as well as a USGA, but it is an improvement than having nothing at all.



There is a retrofitting method used on soil push-up greens that hasnt been mentioned on here yet and Im kicking myself in the ass for not bringing it up. Its such a genius way of keeping the original push-up green while optimizing drainage both on the surface and internally. I really think this method is a stroke of genius and its one of those things like the post-it note that you wish you came up with. I think so highly of this that I will start another thread on it.

Its called "XGD" external greens drainage. Ill start another thread with its link. I think youll be surprised by its portfolio. Genius, absolutely genius.