[Frank Sullivan]

Dear Supers and/or GCA folks who have a knowledge of soil chemistry...

There was a recent thread regarding Sugarloaf Mountain in Florida.  As most have reported, it is a fantastic layout, but the greens are REALLY struggling due to the high aluminum content in the soil. 

When I first played SM (last March), the course had just opened, and the greens were in fantastic shape.  In fact, the layout of the course along with the conditioning were so good that I joined a month later.  It was such a great escape from the normal flat layouts in FL.  Since then, the condition has slowly but steadily deteriorated, and the last time I played (I live in Tampa, so I only get up abut 2 times a month) the greens were in terrible shape.  I realize the course is brand new, but I am really worried about the future of the golf course.  It is in the middle of nowhere, and the housing section has yet to take off per the economy and other reasons.  For the course to stay afloat (I presume), the conditioning must be excellent in order to draw business from the competitive Orlando and Tampa markets.

Does anyone have any experience with this specific issue (high aluminum content in the soil)?  If so, I am sure the super at SM would welcome the information with open arms.  SM sits on one of the highest points in Florida, and basically sits atop a sand dune.  Lake Apopka is at the base of the sand dune, and it has had a history of heavy pollution, although I don't know the specifics.

It really is a shame that the course is suffering, because it is a very unique course as FL courses go...

I guess I am asking for any advice, help, suggestions, etc... that the pros on this forum can provide.

As a member, you can imagine how frustrating this is...but as an architecture fanatic, it is even more frustrating in that I want to see a great course succeed.

Thanks for taking the time to read:)

Best,

Frank

[Ian Larson]

Frank,

Sorry to hear that. Your super should be the first guy you go to and make sure there is an open communication line within the club. He may be hiding from you guys. Membership is probably pissed off and things are probably awkward with the entire upper management. I don't know but if that is the case good communication is going to be priority #1.

I wouldn't rely on GCA.com for solutions. It's not fair to your super. The only thing I would recommend is to make sure a recent soil test has been done by an accredited lab. If not get one done. Both mehlich iii and saturated paste extract. A water quality test should also be done. With that  it may be a good idea to bring in an outside consultant. Independent or USGA guy. Pat Obrian is in the southeast and is a very good guy with the USGA.

If all is being done correctly with cultural practices it sounds like there is some nutrient excesses and deficiencies going on and they need to be balanced. Have a consultant work with the super and make sure everything is being done that can be done with fertility and cultural practices. I'm sure it's just not aluminum.

Anaerobia should also be a question. Is the root system getting oxygen? If it's not, anaerobia sets in and right behind that is blacklayer. Blacklayer can really cause turf loss and thinning on the greens surface.

But like I said, communication is key. Organize some meetings with the super, GM, greens chairman and the greens committee. Maybe even some interested members. Communicate, look into a consultant, get soil and water reports and don't allow your super to be crucified by everyone. Yet.

[Bryan Izatt]

Frank,

When I was up there a couple of weeks ago the fellow running the shop told me that the super had a handle on the cause of the green problems (AL3) and was working on correcting it.  That was the day that they did a very heavy topdressing, so perhaps that was part of the cure.  A quick Google search suggests that AL3 toxicity in acidic soils is a not unknown or uncommon problem.  I'd go with Ian, your super and the course management need to reach out to consultants and other supers and find someone who has successfully dealt with this kind of issue.

[Don_Mahaffey]

Ian,
Classic answer...your super should be the guy you go to, don't take advice from GCA...he may be hiding???... but hire a consultant...not fair to your super...but here are the tests you should run...

Frank,
Go talk to the super and make sure he really wants advice from an internet discussion board before you start asking questions for him.

Supers have internet discussion boards they can go to at both GCSAA and Turfnet if they want informed opinions from others in the industry.

I understand you really want to help, but talking with him and learning what he's doing to combat the challenges he faces will likely be a lot more enlightening, and specific to his course, than anything you get from here.

Good luck,
Don

[Frank Sullivan]

Ian,
Classic answer...your super should be the guy you go to, don't take advice from GCA...he may be hiding???... but hire a consultant...not fair to your super...but here are the tests you should run...

Frank,
Go talk to the super and make sure he really wants advice from an internet discussion board before you start asking questions for him.

Supers have internet discussion boards they can go to at both GCSAA and Turfnet if they want informed opinions from others in the industry.

I understand you really want to help, but talking with him and learning what he's doing to combat the challenges he faces will likely be a lot more enlightening, and specific to his course, than anything you get from here.

Good luck,
Don

Hi Ian, Brian, and Don!

Thanks for your replies....I really appreciate it.  I certainly don't want to bypass (or offend) the Super at SM...he is a great guy and by all accounts very capable.  I will take you suggestions and move forward from here.

Thanks again!

Frank

[John_Conley]

I finally saw Sugarloaf Mountain.  Several locals had told me the course is "terrible" and I'd read here that it was in real bad shape.  Things have changed, I'm happy to report.  It is in great condition.

The cart attendant told me they didn't overseed for the winter and really struggled when some cold weather hit.  Conditions are firm and green speeds are a tad slow, which makes sense considering the greens.  They are wild.

As far as the course?  I love it.  My fifth C&C played.  Sand Hills is still #1.  Plantation is #2.  I'll put Sugarloaf t3 with Cuscowilla for now...after another play I might judge it a bit below that.  Chechessee is nice, but easily the least of this bunch.

[Ray Richard]

I'd send a sample to Hummel Labs.http://www.turfdoctor.com/
Dr Norm Hummel combines a PHD with common sense, and he stays out of the politics.

[Steve Hyden]

Apparently the economic situation has not been kind to Sugarloaf Mt.  Brings to mind El Diablo, another fine Central Florida layout that's fallen into disrepair (I say that from non-so-recent experience, as I haven't played it for several years, but I can't imagine it's improved much lately).  There's also a separate report on Pine Barrens: http://everythinggolf.blogs.heraldtribune.com/

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