[Dan Kelly]

I'm amazed.

Either I missed it, or the course that is EASILY my No. 1, for Architecture-Plus (caveat: I told Tom I that it was quite a coincidence -- his Favorite Courses I've Played lining up virtually synonymously with my Favorite Courses I Haven't Played!), has been mentioned only in that teasing, we-know-who's-playing-there-soon way: Sand Hills.

Enchanted ground. Huge skies. Big winds. Great par-3s, great par-4s, great par-5s. What more could you want?

[RJ_Daley]

I haven't said anything on this thread because it sort of becomes a list of the top 'rated' courses that one has been lucky enough to play.  While there is a small % of our GCA contributors that are fortunate enough to have actually played the high exhaulted list of what is universally considered the best courses more than one or two rare occasions, the rest of us respond to this type of question based on the once in a lifetime thrill and moment that becomes overwhelmed by the enchantment of the occasion.  

When discussing why a course is your favorite, it is good to have played it a fair number of times and see how your opinion averages out in terms of multiple conditions and against a variety of your strategies playing these great golf holes in differing stategic methods and seeing your plan executed.   How many of us can actually execute on the first try the strategy that enchants us as an approach to a world reknowned golf hole that you have been dreaming about?  Yet that one time you play that course or that legendary hole, it becomes your favorite? (i.e. the ocean cove holes of CP)  

So, with all that off my chest, I'd say I have played greater courses, but I'd pick Lawsonia as one of my favorites, due to familiarity and because it has beautiful landforms for bunkers and green complexes, with variety of strategies through the green and wild excitement on the greens.  Since I have played it a fair number of times, I am becoming familiar enough with it to start seeing the interesting subtle things and have had enough attempts to try to finally execute particular shots to actually get to see some of them work out as planned on rare occasions.  

Of course I can now start to say Wild Horse is a high favorite because I am getting enough rounds under my belt to appreciate it more and more every time I play there and try to cope with its meriad of challenges as well.  It has among the best combination of approach and surrounds putting strategies I have seen.  The fairway and green playing conditions are purposely groomed to offer the real deal when we say firm and fast and that is the perfect "maintenance meld" for that golf course with wide fairways, most often significant wind on a treeless linkslike atmosphere.

I have played at Crystal Downs but once.  Of course it is in my memory from that one round as a time of "enchanting favorite", yet I don't feel that I can say it is a favorite without it being one that I can demonstrate favor to by returning to try it again and again.  

[TEPaul]

I want to remind those on this thread that my list is only those I've played and I realize that's far from comprehensive.

I may have been tempted at some point in the past to include in my list other great courses I'm completetly confident about, certainly like Sand Hills, but if I did anything like that I realize now that Pat Mucci would be on this thread like a hayfield of ticks on a hot July day and hi-jack this thread with accusations of bias and bashing for failing to play a course from every conceivable wind direction.

So others should always do what I've been forced to do--only list the courses that you've actually played as your favorites!

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

You're making great progress, I'm proud of you  

[ed_getka]

Kingsley Club because it is fun, challenging, fun, has a great set of par 3's, its fun, the greens are well-contoured (espec. 13 ), its fun.

Cypress Point. Heaven on earth! Pure Mackenzie, lots of width off the tee (to accomodate my spraying of the ball), but testing approaches if not postioned correctly in the fairway.

Barona Creek which I've talked about before.Great test of one's short game when the rye isn't in.

Pasatiempo. Great greens, sneaky long, excellent green surrounds that test the short game.

[jim_lewis]

Pinehurst #2

Many great courses excell at testing your skill. #2 also tests your character, your patience, your resiliance, and your ability to deal with adversity.  It is one course that as a short-hitting 12 handicapper, I am confident that I can whip most more talented 6-8 handicappers, especially those who expect to hit most of the greens in regulation. I don't expect to hit a lot of greens, but I do know where to miss them and how to get it up and down.  The kind of course where a Payne Stewart can defeat a Tiger Woods, or a decade ago, a Corey Pavin could have beaten a Greg Norman.

The course wins most of the time I play it, but I know nothing more satisfying than that occasional  good day on #2.

[TEPaul]

Pat:

Your own particular strategy of getting your points across on this website is much like the military strategy of the Union's own Ulysses S. Grant when dealing with the far more experienced but less numerous Confederate Army!

I don't know that anyone actually asked Grant what his military strategy was but if they had he probably would have answered; "What strategy? Just keep supplying me the men I can use as cannon-fodder and I'll gaurantee that eventually I will wear the enemy down and out!"

It pains me to cite such an analogy because we all know that it worked!

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

Look at it as resistance to blind and perpetual denial ?  

The other reason could be to provide a reliable constant in contrast with wavering, vacillating, and changing opinions.

[TEPaul]

Thanks Pat! Finally a semi-straight answer from you!

That explains almost perfectly why our resistance to so many of your opinions and posts has been so constant!

[Gene Greco]

TE Paul and Patrick Mucci:

      Just curious.

Obviously, you are two of the featured "stars" of this website and have each had access to and made efforts to see/play many of the greatest golfing venues in the world.

What reasons could you possibly have for not playing the one course which many consider, and you may as well, to be the greatest overall in the world? (Sand Hills)

[TEPaul]

Gene:

I can guarantee you the reason has nothing to do with Sand Hills or it's architecture! A lot more to do with basically I'm getting to be one lazy guy and I really don't like to play golf very much any more either. I do love architecture though, but since I just called my wife Biarritz by a mistake I better watch myself on architecture too!

As for Pat not going to Sand Hills that's because he's completely biased against Coore & Crenshaw! He thinks they have to be guilty of something by association since they might have had something to do with me at some point!

He actually might be right about that but Pat's a black and white kinda guy and he can't understand it might not have anything to do with their undenaible architectural talent!

[Patrick_Mucci]

Gene,

It's a little off the beaten path and I do have a fairly active life aside from golf that takes up a good deal of my time.

I NEVER said that Coore & Crenshaw weren't talented architects, they are, but I'm not ready, as many on this site are, to grant them DEITY status.

TEPaul,

There is nothing wrong with maintaining a consistent position,
I prefer it to messing my hair with sharp 180 degree turn arounds.

[ed_getka]

Sand Hills will most likely be one of my favorite courses once I have had the opportunity to experience it. A friend has given me 3 postcards of various holes on the course and I dream of the day I can make that trip. The holes look so natural, like someone just started mowing grass and put some flags in the holes. One of the few courses that seemingly everyone on GCA seems to agree on as a great course. One of the great things about GCA is I can focus my limited opportunities to play on courses that are recommended here and not have to worry about being disappointed.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Mike Cirba,
My two cents:
Yale- This is the first really prominent course I ever played. I consider it the Great American Golf Course. I still cannot believe how Seth Raynor ever found this course in the dense woods where it lay. The impressive size of everything there is humbling. Seeing the construction photos and talking w/George Bahto about them only reinforces, to me at least, what an ingenious place it is.
Fisher's Island- My fondest memory is playing the 4th. I faded ( lefty)an approach out over the ocean, Dary Dunham drew one on the same line, Bill Spalding faded one in from the left side of the fwy. and John Hermans took one over the top. All four balls were found on the green and three of the guys were 18+ hdcps. Talk about elation!!  The ocean, the wind, the terrain, the scenery, the layout, etc.,etc., all conspire toward perfection. It is a stellar course and I hope to be lucky enough to go back and play there again.
WF East- Played there in a benefit for Ice Hockey in Harlem that put Steve Stricker in our group, same guys as Fisher's. This was perhaps the best day in my golfing life. From the tee shot on #11, where we started, to the rain-forest shower head in the locker room, nothing was less than first class. Period.
Ekwanok- The member who invited us had a minor emergency and could not play with us so as we waited for the Pro to call the Club Pres. who called the Board of Directors who called the Trustees to find out if we could play unescorted a thunderstorm rolled through. It effectively cleared the course and when we got out, 1 1/2 hours later, we had the course to ourselves. Talk about feeling important
Taconic- The sign on the clubhouse door that says ..."we play golf here" is so true. This course can really be a bear, especially if you are above any hole. Fast as lightning greens with a lot of tilt that make recoveries exceptionally hard. Pace of play is usually very quick.
Hotchkiss School GC- This is my home course and I also am D. of G. there. The school was a feeder for Yale and had the foresight to hire Seth Raynor to build a nine-holer. Our 1st, 8th and 9th holes would hold their own anywhere. You have to see our 6th green, it's a piece of work. Actually you can see our 6th, and all the others, as we are public. The course is not pristine but we are trying to make it better all the time, with George Bahto's help.
I've played several older RTJ Sr. courses in my area that are very good. Quaker Hill, a 9 holer on property that Lowell Thomas gave to the club. It has some of the trickiest greens I've played. Very old school course.  Wiltwyck in Kingston, NY that is really a good layout (they are having a membership drive and it is a good time to see this place), and Casperkill in Poughkeepsie( formerly owned by IBM).
Rip Van Winkle- This 9 hole Ross is located in the Catskills and is run by the Smith family. They have to be some the nicest people on the planet. The course is similar to Hotchkiss for conditioning but is a joy to play and is the nicest walk. It's set in a valley with the mtns. to the west and is never overcrowded. I go there several times a season to enjoy the hospitality and the serenity.

Hope I haven't run on too long.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jim Kennedy,

I had the same thoughts about YALE.

How on earth did the architect see this golf course, not just through the trees, but absent all the rock he had to blast and cart away.

What incredible talent, better yet, what GENIUS.

[Mike_Cirba]

Jim Kennedy,

So, you're left-handed too!!  I need to start a new thread!

Thanks for listing your favorite courses.  I've heard great things about Rip Van Winkle from Pete Galea, and will try to stop there on my way up to see Olde Kinderhook this year.

[John P.]

Jim, I think all of the par 4s are excellent at taconic...#3 is absolutely devilish at only 370 yards.  I also love #11 and 13 at 470 and 380 each - great views and bunkering.  In general, I guess I think the shortest par 4's are very demanding in comparison to their length - they play as some of the hardest holes on the course.  Taconic is such an amazing golf course!!!!!!!!

[Mike_Cirba]

John P.,

Absolutely agree about Taconic, and wonder how Wayne Stiles and John Van Kleek's work continues to escape much notice as among the best of the classical period. (Tom Paul will probably want to shoot me, as Stiles was responsible for some VERY questionable recommendations and work at Gulph Mills around 1940).  Still, the original stuff they did together and separately is worthy of recognition.

One of my HUGE regrets on my last trip to Vermont is that I didn't make it to Rutland GC.  From what I've heard, it's one of those hidden gems that we'd all love.  

[ian]

Pinehurst #2: A supreme test for great players. A very fair and playable test for those willing to accept bogeys on their cards. Not as pretty as a Cypress Point, but the best piece of pure architecture I have seen.

[Dan_Belden]

With an assist to TEPaul using cut and paste, I agreed with others who thought this  might be the start of a great thread.

So, forthwith, in the words of our "doyen".

I wouldn't say I have a favorite--and that probably wouldn't be that interesting anyway, but here are the courses I do know that I respect the most architecturally and the general reasons why. I have respect for architecture particularly if there's a difference to it somehow, a logic to it that I can understand somehow and probably ultimately something I might loosely call "taste" which has something to do with what works for me about it with where it is.

NGLA:

Probably the most interesting course and architecture in the world to me for its unique architectural style that works incredibly well for golf and a variety of golf shots. I would cite as my overall feeling about it something Bill Coore said about it; "I can't believe they had the imagination to build some of those holes and the guts to actually do it."

Pine Valley & Merion:

Two courses I would list together for the reason that I think they are the two courses in the world that have 18 holes that show the greatest variety and are the highest quality architecturally that can be found overall in an 18 hole course. Looked at another way what I might consider the weakest hole at either of these two is better architecturally, for some particular reason, than the weakest hole on any other of the great courses in the world. Every single hole on both these courses was burned in my brain from the very beginning and that's something I cannot say of any other courses--even NGLA.

Cypress Point:

Probably the most beautiful architecture in the world, ever!--and I don't just mean the setting. There are a few holes in the middle of the front nine that are not memorable to me, but I believe Cypress may have been the point where architecture reached it's zenith of using and blending with, in every single way, the lines and and the nature of it's particular site. It's ironic that it opened at what appears to have been the height of its architecture (from that point the architecture appears to have devolved downward). In other words the day it opened may have been the most mature and the best it ever was--highly unusual in architecture. Again, I see Cypress as the zenith of what man can do architecturally with nature and the fact that it opened in 1928 just preceding the financial crash and that I don't think architecture reached that point either before or since I think is highly ironic!

Seminole:

A course and architecture that probably has the greatest spectrum of "playability" to it that cannot be seen, or easily seen. It can be a championship course to test the best without a single one of the best saying it's "over the top" and about two days later it can be a relatively friendly "members" course. I've seen that happen many times and that's saying a lot to me about the quality of it's architecture. It does not have 18 good holes though. Some are really great and some have just one thing about them that keeps them sort of in the game.

Shinnecock:

Probably the golf course in the world that seems to have the most of it all! I don't think Shinnecock would lead the world of architecture in any one single element or aspect of architecuture but when you put it all together the general strength of all its architectural elements and aspects would probably put it on top in the opinion of the most people, and would in my opinion.

There's one example at Shinnecock, however, that shows the delicate balance of all things to do with golf architecture and the perception of it. If nothing at all was altered about the golf course except that the nines were turned around the golf course would not even come close to the top of the list overall, in my opinion!

Oakmont:

For top flight players the equal to Shinnecock for the strength of its architecture. Shinnecock's architecture has more elasticity to be "membership" friendly, as Oakmont seems to be the course in the world that stays closest to championship "playbability" all the time.

Royal County Down:

Hard to explain but for it's difference somehow. To carry off degrees of blindness and occassional narrowness in the use of its features like it does says a lot. Without question some of the most amazing bunkers in the world.

Port Rush:

Both the Dunluce and the Valley course seem to me to be some of the best natural golf ground in the world and the courses on it use it very well.

Maidstone:

If I had one course to play every day for the rest of my life it would be Maidstone! It doesn't matter to me if the one great asset of the course is its variability due to the wind! I don't care if it can be very easy one day and real hard and interesting the next with the wind. If it wasn't a bit of a lamb without the wind it would be impossible with it--and that shows true amalgamation of architecture with the natural elements to me!

Others I respect:

Huntingdon Valley; A real shot makers course because of  almost constant uneven lies.

Pacific Dunes: Lots of variety, great setting for it, wind interest and variation, par skewing at it's finest, and a great old/new direction for American architecture!

Rustic Canyon: Although I haven't seen it built I think I know enough about it to say it's an example of real subtle sophistication in architecture and the fact that it's at the affordable public level makes it that much more interesting.

Others:

Fishers Island, Misquamicut, Riviera, Merion West, Lancaster, Lehigh, GCGC, Somerset Hills.  
« Last Edit: May 16th, 2002, 8:30am by TEPaul »
 

[Kelly_Blake_Moran]

Pat Mucci:

I do not think you have to grant any one diety status until you can evaluate the total sum of their career, after they are gone.  However, having spent two days playing Sand Hills, and ease dropping on Coore and Crenshaw conversations and impromteau ( how the hell do you spell that word), I would say there are no two people in the business whom are so at ease with themselves, so gracious, and so talented as those two guys.  They put the game first, the need to make it enjoyable, and they do not allow themselves to be restrained by conventions.  Despite what some may say, Sand Hills could have been screwed up, it was not a slam dunk.  There are some things I question, but overall it is unbelievable.  The green complexes make Shinnecock look public.  

[TEPaul]

Jeesus, don't say things like that!! Pat Mucci will accuse you of being biased against everyone else!

[Matt_Cohn]

I'm thinking of the courses that I would do anything to go play again...

The Rim GC, Payson, Arizona: The best inland site I can imagine for a golf course. Hills, canyons, rock outcroppings, and 50-mile-views in a forest of 100-foot-tall pine trees. Weiskopf and Moorish's last course together. It's in perfect condition with the truest greens I've ever putted. I'm so lucky that I've played there. The course across the street is almost as good, I have heard. Look at

http://www.crescent-resources.com/communit/cpines/clubs.asp

PGA West - Stadium: I will stand up for the greatness of this course! Even though it looks so different, I think the shot values are very similar to the great classical courses we always talk about. I love how it looks, and I also look forward to more individual shots on this course than on any other.

Mauna Kea: Not a lot of explanation needed!

Paa-Ko Ridge: I drove 450 miles on 3 hours sleep to play it, so yeah. See my post on Paa-Ko in the Apache/Barona thread.

http://www.paakoridge.com     (by the way, this is a great website)

I hope this is a nice change from the "Pine Valley, Cypress Point, and Shinnecock" lists that always end up on these threads!

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

Kelly Blake Moran has made an assessment based on his personal experience at Sand Hills, why would I consider that bias, especially when I respect Kelly's opinion, and it is based on first hand knowledge, not hearsay.

Everything I have heard from people who have played the golf course indicates that Sand Hills is an extraordinary golf course, that Coore & Crenshaw did a wonderful job.

Why should I claim bias.

Now, if twenty of your fellow GCA'ers were bashing Shadow Creek, and none of them had seen or played it, I would consider that bias.

HAS THAT EVER HAPPENED ON THIS SITE ?  

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()