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Mike_Cirba

Favorite Courses You've played and why (Tom Paul)
« on: May 16, 2002, 09:28:44 AM »
With an assist to TEPaul using cut and paste, I agreed with others who thought this  might be the start of a great thread.

So, forthwith, in the words of our "doyen".

I wouldn't say I have a favorite--and that probably wouldn't be that interesting anyway, but here are the courses I do know that I respect the most architecturally and the general reasons why. I have respect for architecture particularly if there's a difference to it somehow, a logic to it that I can understand somehow and probably ultimately something I might loosely call "taste" which has something to do with what works for me about it with where it is.

NGLA:

Probably the most interesting course and architecture in the world to me for its unique architectural style that works incredibly well for golf and a variety of golf shots. I would cite as my overall feeling about it something Bill Coore said about it; "I can't believe they had the imagination to build some of those holes and the guts to actually do it."

Pine Valley & Merion:

Two courses I would list together for the reason that I think they are the two courses in the world that have 18 holes that show the greatest variety and are the highest quality architecturally that can be found overall in an 18 hole course. Looked at another way what I might consider the weakest hole at either of these two is better architecturally, for some particular reason, than the weakest hole on any other of the great courses in the world. Every single hole on both these courses was burned in my brain from the very beginning and that's something I cannot say of any other courses--even NGLA.

Cypress Point:

Probably the most beautiful architecture in the world, ever!--and I don't just mean the setting. There are a few holes in the middle of the front nine that are not memorable to me, but I believe Cypress may have been the point where architecture reached it's zenith of using and blending with, in every single way, the lines and and the nature of it's particular site. It's ironic that it opened at what appears to have been the height of its architecture (from that point the architecture appears to have devolved downward). In other words the day it opened may have been the most mature and the best it ever was--highly unusual in architecture. Again, I see Cypress as the zenith of what man can do architecturally with nature and the fact that it opened in 1928 just preceding the financial crash and that I don't think architecture reached that point either before or since I think is highly ironic!

Seminole:

A course and architecture that probably has the greatest spectrum of "playability" to it that cannot be seen, or easily seen. It can be a championship course to test the best without a single one of the best saying it's "over the top" and about two days later it can be a relatively friendly "members" course. I've seen that happen many times and that's saying a lot to me about the quality of it's architecture. It does not have 18 good holes though. Some are really great and some have just one thing about them that keeps them sort of in the game.

Shinnecock:

Probably the golf course in the world that seems to have the most of it all! I don't think Shinnecock would lead the world of architecture in any one single element or aspect of architecuture but when you put it all together the general strength of all its architectural elements and aspects would probably put it on top in the opinion of the most people, and would in my opinion.

There's one example at Shinnecock, however, that shows the delicate balance of all things to do with golf architecture and the perception of it. If nothing at all was altered about the golf course except that the nines were turned around the golf course would not even come close to the top of the list overall, in my opinion!

Oakmont:

For top flight players the equal to Shinnecock for the strength of its architecture. Shinnecock's architecture has more elasticity to be "membership" friendly, as Oakmont seems to be the course in the world that stays closest to championship "playbability" all the time.

Royal County Down:

Hard to explain but for it's difference somehow. To carry off degrees of blindness and occassional narrowness in the use of its features like it does says a lot. Without question some of the most amazing bunkers in the world.

Port Rush:

Both the Dunluce and the Valley course seem to me to be some of the best natural golf ground in the world and the courses on it use it very well.

Maidstone:

If I had one course to play every day for the rest of my life it would be Maidstone! It doesn't matter to me if the one great asset of the course is its variability due to the wind! I don't care if it can be very easy one day and real hard and interesting the next with the wind. If it wasn't a bit of a lamb without the wind it would be impossible with it--and that shows true amalgamation of architecture with the natural elements to me!

Others I respect:

Huntingdon Valley; A real shot makers course because of  almost constant uneven lies.

Pacific Dunes: Lots of variety, great setting for it, wind interest and variation, par skewing at it's finest, and a great old/new direction for American architecture!

Rustic Canyon: Although I haven't seen it built I think I know enough about it to say it's an example of real subtle sophistication in architecture and the fact that it's at the affordable public level makes it that much more interesting.

Others:

Fishers Island, Misquamicut, Riviera, Merion West, Lancaster, Lehigh, GCGC, Somerset Hills.  
« Last Edit: May 16th, 2002, 8:30am by TEPaul »
 


« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Favorite Courses You've played and why (Tom Pa
« Reply #1 on: May 16, 2002, 10:39:02 AM »
Mike & TEPaul,

There must be a typo,

Maidstone over NGLA, everyday of your life ?????

Are you feeling Okay ?????

Surely, someone deranged individual must be posting under your name.

Maidstone over NGLA, everyday of your life ???????
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Evan_Green

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Favorite Courses You've played and why (Tom Pa
« Reply #2 on: May 16, 2002, 10:45:48 AM »
I would add Cascades to the list- it looks like it was always meant to be there- it is one of the most beautiful and challenging courses I have ever played.

There are so many great holes such as #2, 3, 10, 12, 13, 15, 16 (heck why dont I just name them all)- I havent played very many better back to back par 4s that the incredible 12th and 13th at Cascades

Flynn is a genious indeed.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

mtp

Re: Favorite Courses You've played and why (Tom Pa
« Reply #3 on: May 16, 2002, 10:56:16 AM »
Please elaborate on Misquamicut. Never seen so much as a photo of this exclusive club. What makes it special??
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

SPDB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Favorite Courses You've played and why (Tom Pa
« Reply #4 on: May 16, 2002, 11:16:18 AM »
I consider myself a relatively new entrant to the appreciation of architecture beyond aesthetics. I really have Merion to thank for my interest in architecture, it's really that simple. When I first played the course it totally opened my eyes to the notion that a golf course could possess qualities that contribute to its overwhelming architectural merit other than its aesthetics, or how it appears to the eye. I honestly think i can trace my interest in golf architecture to the very first time I played the fifth hole at Merion (is it possible to play this hole and not think about strategy?). It's reassuring to be able to identify a specific point at which an interest is hatched, and even more comforting that it came at a place as important as merion.

And thank god i had begun my appreciation of architecture before i had gotten to NGLA, or else it would have been a marginal waste of time.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:05 PM by -1 »

Mike Hendren

Re: Favorite Courses You've played and why (Tom Pa
« Reply #5 on: May 16, 2002, 11:30:29 AM »
Evan Green,

You, like everyone else, skipped right over the par three 11th at the Lower Cascades.  The 10th is cool with its turbo-boost fairway and the 12th and 13th are indeed fantastic two shot holes.   I remain enamored with the 11th, however, and can't articulate why.  Pulllease - can anyone from the treehouse post a photo?  Why is this hole so easily dismissed on a course that has five solid one-shotters?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Gene Greco

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Favorite Courses You've played and why (Tom Pa
« Reply #6 on: May 16, 2002, 12:32:02 PM »
Mike:

    I can assure you that your list will be altered significantly after June 4th.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"...I don't believe it is impossible to build a modern course as good as Pine Valley.  To me, Sand Hills is just as good as Pine Valley..."    TOM DOAK  November 6th, 2010

Scott_Burroughs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Favorite Courses You've played and why (Tom Pa
« Reply #7 on: May 16, 2002, 12:45:27 PM »
Gene,

I think you're not the only one who thinks that this is Mike's list.  It is not.  This is TEPaul's list from another thread of which Mike cut and paste to this thread.

However, your point is certainly valid for Mike's list, whatever his list may be, and for his playing partners, as well.  I will be thinking of them and NOT wondering why they are not posting for 4 days.  After then, one of them might not be able to STOP talking.  ;D
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike_Cirba

Re: Favorite Courses You've played and why (Tom Pa
« Reply #8 on: May 16, 2002, 12:46:43 PM »
Gene,

That's Tom Paul's list from another thread that I posted above (he wasn't sure how to cut & paste to start a new thread).  

I haven't posted my own list (yet), but I'll be certain to leave some room for newcomers.  ;)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:05 PM by -1 »

TEPaul

Re: Favorite Courses You've played and why (Tom Pa
« Reply #9 on: May 16, 2002, 02:34:20 PM »
mtp:

Misquamicut is hard to describe simply. It's a course that apparently is a Ross remake from an old Willie Park Jr. ten hole par 3 course and there're just so many things about it that are fascinating throw-backs in time--it has to be seen not just described.

It's a par 69 and apparently a US Open local qualifying field didn't do much to it score-wise--don't ask me why but it's anythng but a normal course to them I suppose.

The 1st and 9th fairways are amazing in their topographic rolls, hole #4 is an incredible little driveable par 4, #6, a par 3, is a hole that I feel architects should copy and #8 is a par 3, a photo of which made Bill Coore want to go see the course. It sort of goes on and on like that--the quirk factor is some of the highest I've ever seen!

SPDB:

It is interesting to note where your interest in architecture began, isn't it? For me it wasn't that long ago after going to the Hagley Museum and looking carefully at a few historic aerials of my own course; I remember thinking; "I don't believe what I'm seeing and what this once was."

But more so was after getting into our move project and the Ardrossan site and all the routing and such and talking to Coore about anything and everything to do with architecture.

I was driving back from Long Island from NGLA a few years ago and thinking about all the things we'd talked about I was never really able to put in context very well or understand how all the things fit together.

NGLA was super screaming fast that time and just as I was at EXIT 7a on the NJ Turnpike, I remember everything that I'd been hearing and learning just "Boom" seemed to fall into place in the overall at that moment! The entire jigsaw puzzle seemed to fall into place and since then I think I've really come to understand why people like Coore and Crenshaw and most of the "Boys" just never get particularly formulaic or too set in any particular way!

There are two cliches that really work for me in thinking about architecture; "To always know what you don't know", and Coore's analogy that architecture and creating it is like a musical composition, the architectural features (ground, natural or man-made features) are like the notes and it's all in the arrangement--theoretically the arrangements can be endless!

It helps very much to know and understand as much as you can about the history and evolution of it all and that pieces of things from here and there and everywhere whether concepts or actual can be used in various and interesting ways--but they really do need to be tested for all the things that golfers do and think!

I really love that musical composition analogy and much later told him that I did and he added a caveat that now I find to be even more interesting which was; "like any good musical composition it's completely necessary that not one note is wrong or out of place or it can create total discordance, just like in a musical compositon!"

Bill Coore has provided a great education in my book but it's never been something that seems to have been even thought that much about before--it seems to just come out--like he doesn't even remember mentioning the "Maxwell poof" anymore! And I remember it well when we were standing on the 10th hole at GMGC and he said; "look at that thing there, it's just like 'poof' ".



« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:05 PM by -1 »

Evan_Green

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Favorite Courses You've played and why (Tom Pa
« Reply #10 on: May 16, 2002, 03:38:54 PM »
Mike-

You're right- the 11th at Cascades is a great hole too- the bunkers on the right are brutal- I remember them being as penal as a lot of bunkers surrounding the greens at Winged Foot.

It is easy to skip over that hole given the incredible holes that come before and after, but you are right- it is a very good par 3. The best par 3 on the course in my opinion is #15 however with #4 a close second.

Heck there isnt a bad hole on the entire Cascades- i love them all. What a great course (and it is still somewhat under-rated in my opinion).
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: Favorite Courses You've played and why (Tom Pa
« Reply #11 on: May 16, 2002, 04:15:57 PM »
See, this is why I'm no damn good at rating, ranking, lists and stuff like that! I completely forgot about a great course I do know well on my list up top that Mike Cirba cut and paste into this topic thread--Crystal Downs!!

One of the best front nines anywhere and a great pacesetter on interesting nine to nine transition and variety! #9 a great example of how a mistake can work out beautifully and even the first half of #10 is OK with me. Before that and after that there is something really good about every hole!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

John P.

Re: Favorite Courses You've played and why (Tom Pa
« Reply #12 on: May 16, 2002, 05:21:31 PM »
Taconic Golf Club in Williamstown MA is my favorite course I've ever played.  The scenic beauty is unmatched and the routing is superb.  The back nine provides thrill after thrill, each hole seeming like it has laid there forever.  Absolutely the best course I've played, golf in its pure best form.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Favorite Courses You've played and why (Tom Pa
« Reply #13 on: May 16, 2002, 05:33:06 PM »
This one is SOOOOO easy!

Cypress Point!! :)


Reason being?  Because there's Heaven, then there's Cypress
Point, and then, there's everything else!!!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Favorite Courses You've played and why (Tom Pa
« Reply #14 on: May 16, 2002, 07:04:16 PM »
John P.,
I get a couple of cracks a season at Taconic and it surely is superb. Do you think the shorter pars 4 at Taconic are more interesting than the longer ones?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Craig Rokke

Re: Favorite Courses You've played and why (Tom Pa
« Reply #15 on: May 16, 2002, 07:18:07 PM »
Mike H.
Perhaps this link to Golf Travel Information will allow access to the picture that shows Cascades #11 one shotter:

www.golftravelinformation.com/homestead/cascades/vca/
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

K.Hegland

Re: Favorite Courses You've played and why (Tom Pa
« Reply #16 on: May 16, 2002, 07:41:47 PM »
My short list

Crystal Downs:
I could say what everyone already knows about the place, but why not be original.  The place is as close to paradise as I have yet to find in my young life.  The golf speaks for itself, its an amazing MacKenzie masterpiece.  Why its so special to me is the little things out there.  The fact that when you step on the tee, you feel like you've dropped back 70 years in time instantly.  Can't really explain it, you have to go there to witness it.  My two favorite memories out there both involve snow, go figure.  Me and my two best friends played "The Downs" in the second week of December last year!!  Played 18 on a Saturday,  and woke up early to play a quick morning nine before we headed back to MSU.  It was half snowing, cold and breezy, but we had the whole course to ourselves, I just tried to take it all in, its still one of my favorite golf memories of all time.  The last time I was up at "The Downs", it was mid March, and me and the same two friends went and just walked the course, again we had the place to ourselves.  The snow was receding, the eagles were flying about Lake Michigan, CD, is just an emotional place, I long for the days I get to return, the sooner the better, hopefully late August.

Austin Golf Club
What can I say, I love that place.  Its a shot makers dream, I would safely safe that C&C did an excellent job offering different playing routes to each hole.  Again, the boys at C&C take full advantage of the wind, creating tons of shots depending on where that Texas wind is coming out of.  The course offers alot of risk and reward type of strategy, making it a pure dream to play in match play, and just as fun in stroke play.  The green complexes are amazing, firm and lightning fast.  I took a while for this Northerner to figure out the shots I would have to begin to play down there.  Deceptively fast is what I gotta say, angles of approach are key to putting up a good score.  

I know its a big suprise I'm writing about CD and AGC, but thought I would chime in.  I think Platallia Club will be on this list once I get to play it!!!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Jeff Fortson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Favorite Courses You've played and why (Tom Pa
« Reply #17 on: May 16, 2002, 08:11:56 PM »
My favorites:

St Andrews (Old)  Why?  Do I really need to answer this one.

Shinnecock -  The deepest team of holes that will challenge you hole after hole.  I love the parkland/linksland setting.  2nd best routing I've ever played (Old Course being #1).

NGLA -  To me the most brave and wonderful design I've played.  From the routing, to the names of the holes, to the green complexes, to the location and serenity I cannot think of many places I'd rather be.

Cruden Bay -  Such a great natural stting with such little earth moved to make it, if any at all.  The views from the high points on the course and Slains Castle.....it doesn't get much more pure than this.

Pinehurst #2 -  The best green complexes on earth.  Maybe the most demanding approach shot course I've ever played or seen.  I love the demanding mid and long iron shots demanded here.

Honorable mentions:

Pasatiempo -  Awesome.  #2, #11, #16.  I don't need to say anymore.

Olympic Club (Lake) -  US Open history.  #18.  very demanding off the tee but fair.

The Creek -  What a great unknown to most of the world and I'd rather keep it that way.  #6.  I love CB Mac.

Lundin/Leven Links -  I love both of these shortish gems just southwest of St Andrews.  True links golf.

Royal Dornoch -  Unbelievable greens and location.  You have to play this course before you check out of this world.  It is a must!


Jeff F.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
#nowhitebelt

Mike Hendren

Re: Favorite Courses You've played and why (Tom Pa
« Reply #18 on: May 16, 2002, 08:17:21 PM »
Craig, you are a Great American (a favorite euphemism of the late Southern humorist Lewis Grizzard).  That's a good pic.  I love the bunker that runs uphill to the left of the green and obscures the back left pin placement.   Thanks.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Evan_Green

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Favorite Courses You've played and why (Tom Pa
« Reply #19 on: May 17, 2002, 12:20:34 AM »
I find it fascinating that nobody mentioned Pebble Beach While I have mentioned options to what I feel would improve the course- I still love it the way it is (even if its only 16 of the 18 holes)

Clearly Pebble is one of the best 3 golf courses in the world (and speaking of history, there has been a bit there!). You will find no three better consecutive holes than 8-10 in the world. I challenge anyone to name any three consecutive better holes. Anyone who has ever scored 4-4-4 or better on those holes earns my eternal respect as a golfer.

There are a number of courses "on the ocean" in the world, but at Pebble you get up close and personal with the ocean in a way that is seldom experienced even in the UK because you are so elevated above the sea. Furthermore the Atlantic doesnt match up to the Pacific in terms of visual dramatics. The cliffs at Pebble are simply amazing. Tee shot on #16 Cypress perhaps excepted (no surprise that course too is on the Pacific), is there ANY greater shot than the second shot on #8 @ Pebble?

I wonder if one of the reasons Pebble is less "coveted" is because it is so easy to get on and because of the tourist element there.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Chris Kane

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Favorite Courses You've played and why (Tom Pa
« Reply #20 on: May 17, 2002, 02:44:18 AM »
Evan,

I havn't played at Pebble Beach - but 4-6 at Royal Melbourne West would have to come mighty close, or even surpass the exalted level you talk of at PB

4th is an all-world 4 1/2 hole - drive is blind over a set of massive Mackenzie bunkers, followed by the second shot onto a massive, undulating green.

5th is the best par 3 in Australia, 178yds over a valley to a green surrounded by sublime natural bunkering.

6th is a 450yd dogleg-right par 4, downhill drive, where you have the option of carrying the bunkering and scrub on the dogleg, or playing safe down the left.  Second shot uphill onto a rolling green, where two putts is a great effort.  Was voted the best 6th hole in the world by Golf Mag.  Easily the best hole in Australia.

I'd be surprised if those who've played both RMW and PB wouldn't back me up on this.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: Favorite Courses You've played and why (Tom Pa
« Reply #21 on: May 17, 2002, 03:00:27 AM »
I haven't played Pebble in a long time now so I really can't remember but I see in one of GeoffShac's books that Chandler Egan redesigned #9 Pebble with basically two fairways or certainly two distinct fairway options? Does that exist today or as it did when he designed it? If not why not?--it should if this great hole is to be all it can be?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Evan_Green

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Favorite Courses You've played and why (Tom Pa
« Reply #22 on: May 17, 2002, 06:54:16 AM »
TEPaul-

I would refer you to the following link on Pebble's website to help answer your question regarding #9:

http://www.pebblebeach.com/1a9.html
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

A_Clay_Man

Re: Favorite Courses You've played and why (Tom Pa
« Reply #23 on: May 17, 2002, 08:39:11 AM »
TePaul- In response to the ninth at PB. The fairway to the right is no longer maintained as fairway. Distance from the cartpath and The severity of the slope is probably the best reason not to encourage the so called golfer to play that way.
My experiences have shown that the hole is considerably easier from this position. It gives the viewer a much better angle, but if wise (or too far out) it allows for the lay-up option which usually results in a fair roll at par.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

JayC

Re: Favorite Courses You've played and why (Tom Pa
« Reply #24 on: May 17, 2002, 09:16:01 AM »
Sand Hills.  
A golf soul rejuvenation.  

Did anyone notice a Tom Doak post on the "where's the next great one" tread where he mentioned Pete Dye as initially being offered the SH project?  I can't shake that idea.  At first I couldn't imagine a Dye course up there but the more I think about it, I'm not so sure. Wasn't he influenced by a tour of the great links?  And didn't he include some of their features into his own?  I suppose Whistling Straits gives us a hint but I wonder how things might be different now had he been chosen over C&C?  
 
  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

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