[Agman]

I know there's been discussion on this before, but everything old is new again. Personally, I love the occasional hole that requires either a blind tee shot or a blind approach. Obviously, a blind hole makes lots more sense on a private course, where foreknowledge guides you. Still, last I looked, there was no rule in the books prohibiting players from walking up to the crest of a hill or or around some other obstacle to see what's ahead. When Bobby Weed designed Glen Mills, a public course not far from me outside of Philadelphia, there are a variety of holes on both nines that are visually obstructed from the tee; few other public tracks seem that daring. Yet it's great fun, and assumes the golfer will like it enough to come back.

But when you hear Tiger and the rest, one of their key pieces of architectural praise is that the whole course is out in front of them.

These kinds of holes are all over linksland courses. The minimalists seem to incorporate one or two of these challenges into every design. Tom Fazio, on the other hand, sees a blind hole as the devil's handiwork, and so do lots of other modern architects.

Are there blind holes you especially like? Why? Some you especially hate? Why?

Thoughts, please.

js

[Anthony Gray]

  Agman,

  First of all what the H...E... double hockey sticks is a Agman. As far as blind shots.....I love them. The home of golf has several. For crying out loud the roots of golf run deep with the blind shot. The greatest course in the world Cruden Bay has back to back blindies. The first major had a few.

  What great suspense they offer. What lurks over that hill? A birdie chance or doom.

  The people that do not like them are the ones that do not like the element of chance. No apreciation for "the rub". Again life imitates golf. The blind shot is like the path less traveled....... what is beyond is unknown until you get there.

  Three cheers for todays architect who will embrace history and provide us with a blindy!!!

 Anthony

[Kirk Gill]

Most of the examples I can think of where blindness is used to great effect aren't from the great courses of the world......'cause I haven't played too many of them. I love a par 4 at a local muni where the green is located some 30 yards beyond the crest of a hill - pretty much blind for all approaches unless you just kill a monumental drive. No bunkering around the green, but a really nice fall-off to the left that leaves a tricky chip. There are trees well behind the green that can be seen from far down the fairway, which I think make it really fun to play, as you're always testing your memory of exactly where the green is in relation to those trees. Of course, you don't know where the pin is, which turns off a lot of people. Of course, you have a chance to see that green earlier in the round, so there's no excuse to me for not knowing where the pin is. It's not knowing where the green is that is the exciting part.

There's also a great hole at nearby Pradera where the green is sort of hidden behind a hillside encroaching from the right. It's a par-five, and so you have to be careful about placing your second shot to the correct part of the fairway so that you can see the green. I think that's my favorite way of using blind shots on a course - as a "punishment" for a poorly-placed or poorly-though-out shot. It allows for a great and fun recovery shot, even if you're in the fairway (just the wrong side of it).

[Greg Chambers]

I'm a big fan of the occasional blind shot, however, there is nothing more frustrating than a well struck shot to a blind area, only to find that the ball had gone beyond the blind target into a hazard... 

[JMorgan]

Jeff,

I enjoy the faith-based nature of blind holes every now and again, but not in succession nor in plentitude.  More than one or two blind holes is usually my limit.  The famous holes like Dell or the opening hole at Elie are remarkable, almost badges of accomplishment for any serious duffer, but too much blindness on the same course or in the same day leaves me bored with the story after a while.  Like in everyday life, too much blind faith saps one's notion of free will and self-determination, and squelches the felicity of the Game.

[John Moore II]

It depends on the course really. If the course is primarily a public/resort course, then I am not really for blind shots. They really amount to safety hazards in those situations. While I really LOVE Tobacco Road, think its a fantastic course, its brutal for first time players. They struggle to get rounds finished in under 5 hours because of the number of blind shots. I mean, they have 8 blind tee shots and another 5 blind approach shots. I think its a great course, but given that its a resort course (they literally have 0 members) its kind of out of place.

Now for a private course, where play is more limited and all the golfers on the course any given day have played it dozens of times (or at the very least are playing WITH someone who has played it dozens of times) then the shots are not as blind. You can't see where the ball lands, but you know exactly where to aim and pretty much know where the ball has ended up. Plus, its not as 'unsafe' because you likely know the golfers in front of you and you know how long it takes them to play. So you know when they are out of range.

I like blind holes as far as playing them, they make me think more than I might have to usually. But from a pace of play point of view, they are real killers.

[Tom Huckaby]

If someone can express this better than JMorgan did, they deserve a Pulitzer.. my gosh was that well-said... and artfully so....

Put me down with him, and begging him to be my spokesman at any time.

 

Regarding blind holes with hidden hazards... can anyone give examples?  Of course as a concept that has to be utterly cryit downe... but do many of these really exist?

[John Moore II]

If someone can express this better than JMorgan did, they deserve a Pulitzer.. my gosh was that well-said... and artfully so....

Put me down with him, and begging him to be my spokesman at any time.

 

Regarding blind holes with hidden hazards... can anyone give examples?  Of course as a concept that has to be utterly cryit downe... but do many of these really exist?

Yes, blind holes with hidden hazards do exist. The 7th hole at Tobacco Road has a water hazard/swamp area at the bottom of the hill that can be hit into from the tee. That is the only one off hand that I can think of. Give me some time and perhaps I can think of a few more.

[JMorgan]

If someone can express this better than JMorgan did, they deserve a Pulitzer.. my gosh was that well-said... and artfully so....

Put me down with him, and begging him to be my spokesman at any time.

 

Aww shucks, Huck.  You're just angling for free ehru lessons, aren't you?

[Tom Huckaby]

If someone can express this better than JMorgan did, they deserve a Pulitzer.. my gosh was that well-said... and artfully so....

Put me down with him, and begging him to be my spokesman at any time.

 

Aww shucks, Huck.  You're just angling for free ehru lessons, aren't you?

Isn't that every man's life goal?
 

[Damon Groves]

Jeff,

I enjoy the faith-based nature of blind holes every now and again, but not in succession nor in plentitude.  More than one or two blind holes is usually my limit.  The famous holes like Dell or the opening hole at Elie are remarkable, almost badges of accomplishment for any serious duffer, but too much blindness on the same course or in the same day leaves me bored with the story after a while.  Like in everyday life, too much blind faith saps one's notion of free will and self-determination, and squelches the felicity of the Game.

Well said and I agree completely. I think this includes blind tee shots such as the tee shot on number 9 at Pacific and 18 at Riviera. Both great holes.

[ed_getka]

I don't mind a blind shot now and again, but more than 2 or 3 in a round and I am not enthralled. I much prefer semi-blind shots, which is what you get a lot of at Tobacco Road and Kingsley Club. You can't see exactly where it is you want to go, but you clearly know where you are trying to get to. I like these holes because they leave doubt in your mind and that is all that is really needed to get the wheels turning. Completely blind shots are less interesting to me such as #1 at Elie, or the 3-4 holes at Murcar where you have no idea what is going on up over the rise. On #7 at TR I could actually see the flag so as long as I didn't hit the ball 290 yards I was going to be fine

[John Moore II]

I don't mind a blind shot now and again, but more than 2 or 3 in a round and I am not enthralled. I much prefer semi-blind shots, which is what you get a lot of at Tobacco Road and Kingsley Club. You can't see exactly where it is you want to go, but you clearly know where you are trying to get to. I like these holes because they leave doubt in your mind and that is all that is really needed to get the wheels turning. Completely blind shots are less interesting to me such as #1 at Elie, or the 3-4 holes at Murcar where you have no idea what is going on up over the rise. On #7 at TR I could actually see the flag so as long as I didn't hit the ball 290 yards I was going to be fine

I think that much of the time at TR, its hard to even see where you are trying to go overall. And yeah, it is a pretty long ways to the hazard on #7, but for people from the back tees (and even the next up set in some cases) are often able to reach the hazard. If I hit driver, I'd reach that hazard, though I understand that not everyone would. I have never played the other courses you mention. I've said before though that I think Tobacco Road, even though I think its a very good course, has a few too many blind shots.

[TEPaul]

I can't really think of a blind hole right now that didn't interest me somehow. Sure some of them can be confusing at first but my feeling has always been they tend to make you want to come back just to unravel their mysteries and nuances.

It seems to me that the wonderful Royal County Down had as many blind shots or holes as I've seen. I spent three days there in 2001 playing the course. I'm just sorry I couldn't have stayed longer to get to know the intracacies of some of those blind shots and holes better.

[Ari Techner]

You can put me in the "love them" camp.  Personally I love the slightly uneasy feeling I get from not being able to see the landing area.  I like that it makes me pick a spot and make a good swing.  Sounds simple enough but for some reason never seems to be.  Like many I love the anticipation of walking up the hill after a well hit shot not knowing exactly where your ball ended up.  To me the sense of acomplishment is greater when you pull off the shot as you intended.  I get bored with the modern "everything is out in front of you" type courses. 

[Rob Rigg]

- Everything in good measure (aside from man-made water hazards and trees)

- Variety is the spice of life

Like any other type of hole, a blind one can be good, bad or indifferent. I do not think it is fair to lump them all in one bucket.

And, as has been stated, one or two on a course may be appropriate based on the lay of the land, but too many becomes annoying and anti-climatic

[Sean_A]

Blind holes are like any architectural feature.  If an archie proclaims he won't buildem' (and stays to his word) his art will at someplace and sometime suffer.  It doesn't really matter if the golfer appreciates blindness or not.  Architecture shouldn't be a popularity contest.  The archie can't please all the people all the time and I for one wish they wouldn't try so hard to accomplish this impossibility.   

Blind holes don't bother me much as long as there is room for error.  I couldn't put a number on what is too many blind shots.  It all depends on the site and likely my mood.  For the most part, I just accept blind shots as one of the tricks of the architectural trade. 

Ciao 

[Niall C]

 

Blind holes don't bother me much as long as there is room for error.  I couldn't put a number on what is too many blind shots.  It all depends on the site and likely my mood.  For the most part, I just accept blind shots as one of the tricks of the architectural trade. 

Ciao 

Sean,

I think that is spot on. There has to be a degree of latitude to a blind shot otherwise it would be just pot luck whether you hit the target or landed in a hazard. I think the old time architects had this sussed as I can't think offhand of any older course which doesn't offer a degree of latitude for a blind shot.

Ed

I've not played Tobacco Road so can't really comment on what you say there but I was interested in your comment on Murcar. I have only played it once but if you had asked me I would not have characterised it as a course with many blind shots. Now Cruden Bay, thats another matter.

Niall

[PCCraig]

I love them.

I could have 18 holes with blind shots and be in heaven.

My favorite blind shot in the States: the 13th at Shoreacres.

[Anthony Gray]

  So what is the greatest blind shot in the world?

  I nominate 14 at Cruden Bay


   Anthony

[archie_struthers]

 

Love blind holes >     Some of the  local muni's
 have some great blind holes ,  and an inherent home course advantage for the local player. Not all bad.  Think back to when you were a kid and the b-ball team is playing at a rival school with a quirky gym .  That's the deal and overcoming the home court advantage requires not just physical skill but some intellectual acuity or "street smarts" .

Obviously some great designs employ blind tee shots ,  as I have often referred to the design challenges of #4 at Pine Valley. Here the expert player must figure wind , turf conditions and angle of attack in choosing  re figuring the angle and distance are quite a challenge for the expert player.
This on a golf course that appears straightforward, but really isn't.

Older courses and those across the pond tend to use blind shots to a great effect , as it appears the American designers post WW II  seemed to eschew them as a general rule.  

[Ronald Montesano]

Distinction between blind tee ball and blind approach (are there any blind lay-ups?) factor in to your love/hate?  I'm better with a blind tee ball than a blind approach.  More margin for error in most cases.

[John Moore II]

Distinction between blind tee ball and blind approach (are there any blind lay-ups?) factor in to your love/hate?  I'm better with a blind tee ball than a blind approach.  More margin for error in most cases.

Yes, there are blind lay-up shots, #1 at Tobacco Road has a blind 2nd shot depending on where you hit your tee shot and if you are brave enough to go to the green. Otherwise, its a blind 2nd to the green. But that hole is very interesting. Tot Hill Farm has some blind approaches as well, especially depending on where the previous shot ends up. The rock outcroppings really come into play out there.

But to answer the question, no, the placement of the blind shot doesn't affect whether or not I like the shot. I like blind shots when they are somewhat rare and generally not on public courses.

[Peter Nomm]

There is the "anticipation" aspect that makes blind holes fun - hitting what you think is a good shot and then the anticipation of seeing it sitting close.

I really appreciate is on short holes - most players have a better chance of hitting a "potentially" good shot on a short shot, so blind approaches on short holes have a great place in the game.

[Dan Moore]

I am a big fan of blind drives which use the natural features of the land or a smartly placed bunker to hide the landing area.  I am less enamored with 100% blind approaches, though semi-blind approaches where the surface of the target is obscured and maybe only the top of the flag is visible and holes where positioning off the tee leads to various levels of visibility are a joy. 

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