[Dan_Belden]

  The back nine at Shinnecock gets all the glory, but I think the outward half might be the most underated nine holes in golf.  So much attention is heaped on a wonderfull set of holes on the back nine, that front nine is often disregarded entirley.  Reading a previous post on GCA, a fellow poster even went so far as to say that if the nines were to be reversed at SH, the course wouldn't even make the top 100.  I thought this was a remarkable comment.  
   As much as minimalism and desing integrity are stressed on this web site, I would think that the front nine at SH would get more praise.  In this day and age when certain architects try to get more out of the land than is there, or simply build what they want regardless of the land, the front nine at SH is a great exmple of what to do.  
  The nine opens with a wonderfull par 4 from atop a dune with much of the course visible below, and with views of the Atlantic, and Peconic Bay.  It is strategic with all options in view, something much desired on the opening hole.  
   The nine has two superb par 3s, a great Redan, and great long par 3 that changes with the wind.  
   The sixth is one of the best par 4s in the world, and great, great example of working with the land and using what it has to offer to design a golf hole to perfection
   The 4th and 8th have perhaps the most subtle greens on the course, and require exacting shots to play the holes well.
   The 3rd and the 9th are fantastic long par 4's whose strategies are defined by the natural features of the land.
  All in all this fantastic set of golf holes should be praised for what they are, strategic holes routed wonderfully to take full advantage of the land features that were there.  

[Chris_Hunt]

I would agree that the SH front nine is much better than most front nines, although I would not consider it underrated with the course being in the top 5 in the world.  The comment you made reference to about switching the nines and having the course fall out of the top 100 is absolute garbage.

I cannot recall having walked a course with a front nine as honestly and strategically designed as at Shinnecock.  Of course the hedge has got to go, but features such as the tight Redan 7th, shorter than normal but with a sharper front corner; the square green at the 3rd; the challenging of the cross hazards at the 4th to gain advantage into the green and the hole being named after the pumphouse (as opposed to hiding it); perhaps the coolest looking fairway undulation on the planet at the 9th; as well as the excellent 5th and 6th.  Also, the short hole from the 9th tee to the 1st green is a great way to start at the front again after the eighth.

All in all, I would not say it is underrated....overshadowed perhaps.  If it has a 'less strong' link, I suppose it is the 2nd, but I don't see many long uphill par-3's that look better.

My favorite fronts must be:

Shinnecock
National
Sandwich
Lytham
RCD
Machrihanish

Western Gailes
Baltray
Ballybunion
Silloth
Oakmont

[ed_getka]

Its not underrated since not a lot of people have played it, but the front nine at The Kingsley Club is one of my favorite front nines I've ever played. 3 great par 3's, the par 5's make you work on every shot and a delightful assortment of par 4's, with 6 and 8 being the short variety that make you wonder why you haven't birdied them yet. Most of all its FUN!

[Paul Richards]

Dan, not sure if it meets your description of "underrated", but
the best front nine in all of golf is undoubtedly Royal County
Down's.
 

[Ran Morrissett]

Dan,

The only knock on the front of Shinnecock -and it's a relative one - is that from the approach to the 1st through to the tee ball on 9 the property is less exciting than other great front sides, such as those at Pine Valley, County Down and Yale. To call it flat is inaccurate but it isn't unique either.

Conversely, the topography of Shinnecock's back is as thrilling as any in the world.

But your point is well taken - given the property that Shinnecock's front occupies, it is hard to imagine a better collection of holes. In particular, 5 and 7 are great personal favorites.

Cheers,

[Tim Weiman]

Dan:

I would agree with Chris Hunt: the front nine at SH is "overshadowed" rather than "underated".

On your point by point, I'm in agreement, though I've never been a fan of the pond any more than I am the same on #17 at Royal County Down.

[Paul Perrella]

   Dan,

     I don't know if it is underated but the front nine at Portstewart is, for my money, about as good as it gets. I've mentioned before that this front with Waterville's back would produce something special.

    I am a huge fan of Shinnecock and would personally think that the sum of all 18 holes is SH's greatest strength. One of the few courses (along with Pine Valley) where all the holes are at least solid if not superior.

[GeoffreyC]

Shinnecock Hills is a 10.  How can the front 9 be under rated?

Chris-  glad to see there is another Siloth fan out there.  That's one fun golf course to play.

[Dan_Belden]

Good to see all these opinions.  Agree that overshadowed is the right word, but it is nice to have a discussion of Shinnecock that focuses on the front nine.  This post is much more in response to what was posted on a previous topic.
   I think that an important point to make as well is that Flynn did not try to do too much with the front nine, especially when you consider how good the topo is on the back nine. What the 13th tee is the highest point on Eastern Long Island, maybe the whole Island.
  Tim, kind of aggree with you about the ponds on both courses.  At least at Shinnecock it is only in play on the second shot, and not the tee shot.  
    Also aggree that the front nine at Royal County Down is unbeliveable.  This sort of leads to another thread, which courses have the best set of outward holes.  
  

[Gene Greco]

Paul Perrela is correct. My interpretation of this question leads me to answer Portstewart as well. The dunes are so spectacular it's like playing golf down 5th ave. in Manhattan; they cast shadows which swallow you whole!

[ian]

I'm still struggling with the idea of SH front nine being underated. The course is so strong from one to eighteen, so how can anyone overlook the front nine?
If the comment was for a course, such as Black Diamond, where everyone remembers the back nine for the quarry holes and forgets the front for the same reason; now you have my attention.
Some to ponder:
Muirfield Village
Doral, (blue)
St. Andrews, (old)
The National (Canada)

[Joel_Stewart]

Crystal Downs always come to my mind as the one of the best front nines.  I don't see Shinnecock in that category although its good.  
I'm biased but I enjoy Olympic Club front nine.  #2 thru 7 will beat you to death.

[John_D._Bernhardt]

I find under the definition of underated courses Western Gailes as having a superior front nine. Machrihanish is another but Like RCD and Cypress Point, I question if the course is underrated.

[mike_beene]

Good point on Western Gailes.It is underrated period.The front 14 are as good as any I have seen or played(and the rest are good but suffer from the comparison.Why is Western Gailes so underated?

[Dan_Belden]

 I wish I knew how to move quotes around, and then I could therefore tell everyone why I started this thread.  The thread was started in response to the thread," your favorite course and why".  The opening statement listed several great courses, including Shinnecock Hills.  The caviat for Shinnecock was that with the fine balance of things if the nines were to be reversed, and nothing else changed, the course would not be in the list.  Dan

[Sebonac]

I beg to differ on two holes....I do not think Shinnecock has a "great" Redan...It is a hard Redan..and it is very difficult to recover on that hole from many spots....but it does not set up for great run-in draw like a good Redan should.....At Shinny you just hit and hope....also...#9 is questionable as a good hole....the second shot is very random....with luck playing a big part in your results.....Otherwise...It is awesome....

[Tim Weiman]

Sebonac:

What's wrong with luck playing a big part?  Doesn't that make it better?

[John_D._Bernhardt]

What part of any course on Long Island in underrated.

[A_Clay_Man]

The only true answer to this specific question has to be....

Pacific Grove.

With the well known unique sexiness of the backnine, everyone poo poo's the front. After going around the front religiously, one gets a  real appreciation for the shotmaking neccesary for scoring. The esthetics aren't too shaby either, over looking the Monterey Bay.

Also,

 the likelyhood is that egan, neville and possibly even the good doctor had input in the design back in 32'.

[TEPaul]

I'm the one who has said I think if the nines at Shinnecock were reversed the golf course would not come off half so well--and that's something I firmly believe!

In saying that however, I in no way mean to criticize the front nine at Shinnecock!!

Frankly, I believe I'm coming to consider Shinnecock as possibly the strongest overall presentation in architecture today and as such I would not be in the slightest bit surprised if in the next 2-5 years it manages its way by the others and hits the top spot in the world!!

What I really mean to say in my remark about what would happen if the nines were reversed is an indication of the routing genius of William Flynn. His first hole and the gradual presentation throughout the first few holes of the front nine and onto the second half of the front nine is one that lets the golfer feel a certain gradual "ratcheting up" of both the demand and the topography etc that is most interesting and impressive! The first 3/4 of the front nine uses the flatter land of that part of the course to do that brilliantly and then when you stand on the tee of #9 you begin to get an indication of the topographical "character change" of the land to come--and then on #10---boom--it's an entirely different presentation and demand, leading through a number of holes like this and then back out to a bit more of the flatter land contiguous to the front nine and another "ratched up" finish back up at the topographical part of the course at the end.

Doing the course this way does not in any way discount the quality of the front nine--but it's a much better way to ratchet the experience up gradually to the more dramatic and probably demanding back nine and then quickly down and back up again!

As the nines are now is to me a much better way of letting the golfer into the feel of the course gradually instead of smacking him in the face with some of its most dramatic real estate first off #10 as the first hole.

But again in saying this it in no way implies that there is something wrong with the front nine--I simply happen to believe that it's in the right place against the back nine and works much better that way!!

[Paul_Turner]

The front 9s at Westward Ho! and Brancaster might be underrated.  Both courses have a couple of dullish holes but they also have a few world beaters:

4,5,6,7,9 W Ho!  I particularly like the 7th which is usually overshadowed by the spectacualr 6th.

3,4,8,9,  Very demanding but superb holes.

The front 9 at Rye is superb and at St Enodoc too, although the best holes are at the very start there.

And what about the front 9 at Royal Portrush, that's pretty difficult to beat!

[Dan_Belden]

TEPaul:

    Thank you for the explanation.  Aggree with you that the routing is superior with the nines as they are.  What impresses me about the front nine is that I don't think the design could be any better.  Honestly when people ask me which I like better, Pine Valley or Shinnecock, half the time I say SH,and half the time I say PV.  I think which ever one I am on is my favorite.  
   On a different note, I am going to be playing Merion in a couple of weeks.  Looking forward to seeing what they have done. Anything in particlular that I should look for.?  
    Aggree that the front nine at The Dunluce course is fantastic.  Whole course is fantastic for that matter.  Dan

[TEPaul]

Dan:

Not at all thinking that I'm glad you agree with what I'm saying about Shinnecock--only that you seem to understand my rationale--again the front nine is not to be underated only that it's a perfect "lead in" to one very impressive golf course which of course includes all 18 holes--both front and back!

Again, I just think the nines are in the correct place! In a routing like Shinnecock's with both #1 and #10 so close to the clubhouse it would be easy to turn the nines around for whatever reason and I just don't think that would not be a good idea!!

I'll tell you why someone might think to do something like that which again in my opinion would hurt the overall feeling and flow of the course. A reason could be something as simple as although #9 and #18 are side by side #9 is actually where #18 should be in sort of  a classic sense, if you know what I mean.

William Flynn was so good at fixing things like that in a routing sense but there he obviously didn't think it would matter. As to how he could have done it if it seemed important--let's talk about that!

[Dan_Belden]

TEPaul:

    Honestly I think that the 16th hole would be the Ideal finshing hole.

I have a good story for you.  One of the times I played SH  I was with a teamate of mine from Arizona 
   We teed of on one, played thru4, caught a group and went over to 18.  We then proceeded to play 18,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17, then went to 5 and finsished out from there with 9.  It was really a fun way to play it.  So I almost don't think it matters how the nines play, the course is just so good that it might not matter.  14th as your tenth hole of the match isn't bad.  Dan

[Dan_Belden]

TEPaul:

   The main reason I don't want the nines switched, is the tee shot on 10.  That is a tough tee shot for the first hole of the day.  But think of a finish of 14,15,16.   With 14 being the 16th hole etc..etc..

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