The Forced Carry Over Water...

[Mike Hendren]

is the bane of golf course architecture in America.

Discuss.

Double-Bogey

[henrye]

Cypress point #'s 15 & 16.  Mauna Kai #3.

Seriously though, when one plays a course that's a 5 or less on the Doak scale, more often than not it's the water hole that sticks in one's memory.

[Anthony Gray]

  Most of Pete Dye's famous holes have shots over water.

  Anthony

[Mike Hendren]

Anthony, one does not have to search far in American culture to know that fame and greatness have little, if any correlation.

HenryE,  while one must negotiate a little sliver of ocean at Cypress Point's 15th and 16th, no one is "forced" to play directly at the 16th green from the tee.  It is not the carry that makes that hole great, but rather the option to play safely to the left.

Mike

[henrye]

Mike, regardless of what you think makes the hole great, it has a "forced cary over water".

[Tomas Hannell]

The F-COW, as this type of forced carry could well be known, does provide the benefit of penalizing a topped shot (and the trads among you may recall MacDonald failing the Old Course for not punishing this strategy). However, there's a balance often ignored. Mid Ocean has a good infusion of F-cows, as does NGLA, all with options to bail out more or less sideways. I like that.

[Ted Kramer]

Here is my response . . .
"Bullshit".
Man up, hit the ball over the water or drop one and try again.
If you don't have the game to hit the ball in the air far enough for a "reasonable" distance, get to the range and work on your game.
And if the water bothers you so much that it takes you out of your game, you're simply not mentally strong enough.

If you are too old and or simply not strong enough, I'd say find another course or another set of tees.

While forced carries over water can certainly be overdone,
I wouldn't describe them as anything even close to,
"the bane of golf course architecture in America"

Not all holes or all courses have to be all things to all people.


-Ted

[PCCraig]

I don't really mind forced tee shots over water so much as I can usually carry them no problem.

[Anthony Gray]

  Water does add aesthetics to the golf hole, Why not use it to provide strateegery . The more of it the better.

  Anthony

[Steve Salmen]

Shoreacres has 5 tee shots that require forced carries.

[Mike Hendren]

Here is my response . . .
"Bullshit".
Man up, hit the ball over the water or drop one and try again.
If you don't have the game to hit the ball in the air far enough for a "reasonable" distance, get to the range and work on your game.
And if the water bothers you so much that it takes you out of your game, you're simply not mentally strong enough.

If you are too old and or simply not strong enough, I'd say find another course or another set of tees.

Not all holes or all courses have to be all things to all people.

-Ted

Ted, I don't disagree, but I find little in  your comments that is consistent with the spirit of the game as I experience it.  From my limited experience in Scotland, the locals equate losing a golf ball to losing a part of one's soul.

Mike

[Mike Hendren]

Shoreacres has 5 tee shots that require forced carries.

And your point is?

Mike

[Jason Topp]

I would agree that crappy use of forced carries is a problem, as is crappy use of any hazard, but . . .

12, 13, 15 and 16 at Augusta?

[Mike Hendren]

  Water does add aesthetics to the golf hole, Why not use it to provide strateegery . The more of it the better.

  Anthony

I have no problem with the use of water for strategic purposes.  Just not to keen on it for penal purposes.

Mike

[Mike Hendren]

I don't really mind forced tee shots over water so much as I can usually carry them no problem.

Congratulations!

[Mike Hendren]

I would agree that crappy use of forced carries is a problem, as is crappy use of any hazard, but . . .

12, 13, 15 and 16 at Augusta?

There are always exceptions.  As for the four holes you mentioned, I am a huge fan of Augusta National Golf Club, but only find the use of water at the 13th to be ideal.

Mike

[PCCraig]

Shoreacres has 5 tee shots that require forced carries.

Which five over water?

By my count #2 and #8.

Or are you including holes such as #11 with the ravine? You can actually play from the bottom of the ravine on 11! Don't ask me how I know that.  

[Patrick Kiser]

I think Flynn said it best.  See my sig line below...

[Sean_A]

is the bane of golf course architecture in America.

Discuss.

Double-Bogey

DB

There isn't a hazard or architectural feature on earth that is a bane to architecture in America or anywhere else.  The bane of architecture is how and how much water is used by archies which of course is at least partially dictated by the land. 

Ciao

[Ted Kramer]

Here is my response . . .
"Bullshit".
Man up, hit the ball over the water or drop one and try again.
If you don't have the game to hit the ball in the air far enough for a "reasonable" distance, get to the range and work on your game.
And if the water bothers you so much that it takes you out of your game, you're simply not mentally strong enough.

If you are too old and or simply not strong enough, I'd say find another course or another set of tees.

Not all holes or all courses have to be all things to all people.

-Ted

Ted, I don't disagree, but I find little in  your comments that is consistent with the spirit of the game as I experience it.  From my limited experience in Scotland, the locals equate losing a golf ball to losing a part of one's soul.

Mike

Then "the locals" should make sure that they focus, and hit good quality golf shots when faced with a forced carry over water. . . .

-Ted

[Mike Hendren]

DB

There isn't a hazard or architectural feature on earth that is a bane to architecture in America or anywhere else.  The bane of architecture is how and how much water is used by archies which of course is at least partially dictated by the land. 

Ciao

Well reasoned and stated.

Mike

[Sean_A]

DB

There isn't a hazard or architectural feature on earth that is a bane to architecture in America or anywhere else.  The bane of architecture is how and how much water is used by archies which of course is at least partially dictated by the land. 

Ciao

Well reasoned and stated.

Mike

By the way Bogey, I am not buying this Double Bogey stuff.  When I typed DB it felt wrong for it no to be about David Brown.  Since DB doesn't work and Bogey is shorter than Double Bogie....well, the writing is on the wall, for me anyway.  Though, getting me into that Hillbilly group of yours could have an influence on my opinion.

Ciao

[Scott Warren]

I would agree that crappy use of forced carries is a problem, as is crappy use of any hazard, but . . .

12, 13, 15 and 16 at Augusta?

There are always exceptions.  As for the four holes you mentioned, I am a huge fan of Augusta National Golf Club, but only find the use of water at the 13th to be ideal.

Mike

Seriously? Without water where it is, 12 and 15 are shadows of themselves and simply good golf holes, IMO.

And why just "in America"? Where are you placed on forced carries over water in Great Britain, Ireland, Australia and Asia?

[Mike Hendren]

Sean,

I indeed shot a smooth 90 Monday so Bogey it is.

Mike

[Tom_Doak]

Anthony:

Pete Dye avoids forced carries over water more than most architects.  He has plenty of water in play to the sides of his holes, and off the back and sometimes the middle tee, but he rarely ever puts a stream or a pond right across the line of play, because he knows exactly what that does to a woman who can only carry the ball 65-70 yards.