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Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Golf Course Development: A 100 Years Flood?
« on: February 13, 2009, 10:15:14 AM »
In my backyard alone, three courses under construction - Norman's Laurel Cove, Nicklaus' Bear Creek and Von Hagge's Stillwater lay fallow. 

Virtually any course with a housing component completed in the past two years is vulnerable as well.

The elephant in the room is about to turn nasty.  Is this a 100 years flood?

Mike
« Last Edit: February 13, 2009, 10:25:17 AM by Michael_Hendren »
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

tlavin

Re: Golf Course Development: A 100 Years Flood?
« Reply #1 on: February 13, 2009, 11:05:01 AM »
It's bleak, but so is just about any sort of development.  Here in Chicago, we have several large skyscrapers that have halted construction, with caissons and a few "stories" built.  The money has disappeared.

Greg Chambers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Course Development: A 100 Years Flood?
« Reply #2 on: February 13, 2009, 11:14:40 AM »
With all due respect, I would like to know what sort of value a thread like this adds to an otherwise excellent discussion group.  I think we all get the picture here, and I'm not sure what this accomplishes by continuing to harp on the obviously bleak economic future of our game.  Especially when real lives are effected.
"It's good sportsmanship to not pick up lost golf balls while they are still rolling.”

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Course Development: A 100 Years Flood?
« Reply #3 on: February 13, 2009, 11:19:51 AM »
Greg,

Don't worry - if thread adds no value it will die a natural death.

Kindest regards,

Mike
« Last Edit: February 13, 2009, 11:27:02 AM by Michael_Hendren »
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Adam Jeselnick

Re: Golf Course Development: A 100 Years Flood?
« Reply #4 on: February 13, 2009, 11:52:00 AM »
Greg -
For all those whose livelihood depends on the golf industry, and course development more specifically, this discussion group has proved a valuable resource for updates on projects that might not make the morning papers or any other online news source. 

However, in this case I think Michael's post is about 6 months behind the curve.  While countless projects are in the "wait and see" mode, there are renovation and new course construction projects moving forward, albeit with some trepidation.

In fact, an argument could be made that forging ahead with a golf course construction project now might put the owner(s) in prime position to take advantage of the eventual economic recovery.

I, too, am tired of "the sky is failing" op-ed pieces and gloomy rhetorical questions... but I think knowing which projects have failed, and taking lessons from the specific reasons for their decline, can benefit all those with a vested interest in the future of golf course development.

-AJ


Davis Wildman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Course Development: A 100 Years Flood?
« Reply #5 on: February 13, 2009, 11:52:26 AM »
All of us in the biz side of golf are doing all we can to 'think outside the box'.  It is times like these that generally bring greater efficiencies to all aspects of the 'process' regarding planning, design for new construction or renovations and restorations, managing/operations and marketing.

Golf is ready to embrace elements of change that maintain its value; however you may define that, and that appears to be obvious in much of the writing and commentary here on GCA and in associated industry journals/periodicals.

Unfortunately there are and will be casualties alone the way, but that's 'free market' at work I suppose.  

The sun will shine again.


Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Course Development: A 100 Years Flood?
« Reply #6 on: February 13, 2009, 12:01:34 PM »
Greg,

Few things are more important than the condition of our economy and its effects on the things we hold dear.  Perhaps we are beating a dead horse to death, but for someone like me who has lived in three different parts of our great country, seen more than a couple serious downturns, and studied the Great Depression in some detail, I am aghast at how little understanding and knowledge we seem to have as a people.  If it takes constant repetition to get get a few fundamentals through our thick skulls, then so be it.  Over-consumption, i.e. the acquisition of things beyond our financial means, is at the heart of our troubles and doubling down as we are doing will only make things worse.  The emperor has no clothes and the sooner we admit so publicly and adamantly the sooner we'll be on our way to a sustainable recovery.

Mike H,

There is an interesting article in yesterday's WSJ about the Candy brothers in the UK.  There was one also about another type of real estate- chicken coops- which are driving their owners into bankruptcy.  If residential golf was the only elephant in our closet we could all sleep much easier.

I understand that there is still around $1.75 trillion in subprime and Alt A loans out there coming up for interest rate adjustments.  If the government bails out the debtors, what is there to stop all other homeowners to simply stop paying their mortagage and get in on the action?  How far is a collapse in commercial real estate down the pike?  I've heard that there has been considerable short selling of REITs and with all those hated CEOs laying people off, how much office, retail, and manufacturing space is needed?

BTW, I lived down the street (well, highway) from a course built in the 100 year flood plain with all the tees and greens raised several feet above that level.  Surprisingly, in the mid to late 80's, three "100 year floods" occured within two years and the only way one could tell that the flood plain contained a golf course was that the top of a couple of the flags peaked through the water.  Though we live in very volatile times, the course is still there and, I suspect, our economy will struggle through as well.  The questions are how hard do we want to make things and how much of the long term are we willing to sacrifice for short term gains.  Just how many IVs can we put in the golden goose before we bleed the sucker dry? 




Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Golf Course Development: A 100 Years Flood?
« Reply #7 on: February 13, 2009, 12:11:20 PM »
Lou:

When we were building the golf course for Texas Tech, I learned a very interesting fact about 100 year floods.

When engineers do the calculations for the runoff caused by a 100-year RAINFALL event, they assume that the ground was dry beforehand, so that a certain amount of the potential runoff will percolate into the ground (how much depends on soil type).  But, if you get a 100-year rainfall event when it's already been wet ... you get way worse than the 100-year-flood they always talk about.  (That's why we have them more often than once every 100 years.)

Unfortunately, I believe that our modern financial engineers have been working with even less cautious assumptions.

Steve Lapper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Course Development: A 100 Years Flood?
« Reply #8 on: February 13, 2009, 02:42:46 PM »
With all due respect, I would like to know what sort of value a thread like this adds to an otherwise excellent discussion group.  I think we all get the picture here, and I'm not sure what this accomplishes by continuing to harp on the obviously bleak economic future of our game.  Especially when real lives are effected.

Greg,

What I think Mike was asking (which is a VERY interesting question) is whether or not the GC development demise is a "black swan" like event? Like a 100yr flood that has a very, very low probability, will this pullback in course build-out be a lasting shift or a temporary one? I think such a discussion and accompanying thought is quite valuable for everyone, and especially those within the industry.
The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking."--John Kenneth Galbraith

Mike Nuzzo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Course Development: A 100 Years Flood?
« Reply #9 on: February 13, 2009, 03:27:52 PM »

Unfortunately, I believe that our modern financial engineers have been working with even less cautious assumptions.


According to the CNBC report last night the Raters assumed home price increases of 6-8% annually --- forever
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

Brent Hutto

Re: Golf Course Development: A 100 Years Flood?
« Reply #10 on: February 13, 2009, 03:38:55 PM »
According to the CNBC report last night the Raters assumed home price increases of 6-8% annually --- forever

And if reaching the intended conclusion had required them to assume increase of 20% annual--forever, that's what they would have assumed. The outcome was known, the "calculations" were just cover. Kind of like searching for nukes in Iraq.

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Course Development: A 100 Years Flood?
« Reply #11 on: February 13, 2009, 04:13:56 PM »
Steve, your explanation is precisely what I was getting at. I have been studying the residential real estate bubble for eighteen months.  I think what we see there is indeed a "black swan" or paradigm shift.  We are not an ownership society at all - we are a mortgagor society.  Until home prices drop until they approximate 3x median household income in most markets there will be air left in the bubble and there's not a single thing lawmakers, homeowners and lenders can do other than prolong the inevitable.  While we're a couple of years into this, capitulation seems remarkably distant.  There is a supply and demand imbalance in owner-occupied housing that is absurd and I can't help but wonder if that's true in golf course development.  It makes absolutely no sense to develop a golf course at retail when you can buy at a steep discount and have cash flow this afternoon.

Mike
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

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