[Tom Huckaby]

  Does anybody have a picture of this genie?

   Anthony

Your wish is my command.

[TEPaul]

"The genie problem to me remains in people's attitudes.   That genie is gonna be really tough to corral.
Think it can be done?"


Of course not. Who do you guys think let this genie like range finder thing out of the bottle? The R&A? The USGA? No way, they didn't have anything to do with rangefinders being commonly used but they did make something of a logic misstep with their handicap system RULE on artifical devices and unfortunately that opened the door to a regular Rule Book Rules change.

Somebody in the Rule writing room apparently forgot that in the Handicap Rules it said to post a score under the USGA Handicap System one must play by The Rules of the game. They sort of forgot about that when they relaxed the ban on artificial devices for handicap posting purposes.

OOPs. And how to resolve that? Ah Shit, let's just remove the ban on it in the Rules Book itself!  

And why not since so many recreational golfers and courses hadn't been paying any attention to it for years anyway!

[Tom Huckaby]

TEP:

Well jeez, thanks man, shoot me back down into reality.

 

More seriously though... yes, it's the attitudes of the masses that has driven many changes.  So like I told Melvvyn eons ago when this first came up, the largest problem is that his view is that of a tiny minority... and he's got one hell of a preaching job in front of him to change that.

HOWEVER... in my naivete, I figured that perhaps the governing bodies might take the lead on this issue.  Is there really zero chance of that?

If so this goes back to being a silly what if, and I go back to battling with Melvyn.  I still think the game would be BETTER this way - and of course Melvyn's assumptions notwithstanding I have always maintained that - but I go back to dealing with today's reality.  And in today's realities, range-finders remain a good thing, not a bad one.

TH

[Anthony Gray]

   How about this........ We all want uor performance enhanced.....After all we live in a culture of performance enhancement.....So golf yet again immitates life........a longer driver....a longer ball.....more accurate distance information.......this will never go away from life or from golf.....the girl wants to be prettier.....the golfer wants to be better......life.life.life.golf.golf.golf.....

  Anthony

 

[TEPaul]

Anthony:

I don't want to hear anything else about any genies and their bottles or how in the hell they all got out of them. The fact is there can't be a single genie left in a bottle in America. It's pretty much "Katie Bar the Door" now.

I mean for a few years I've had to suffer through all these pretty looking ads on female cycle products and female hygene products but the other day (and I think on a golf broadcast of all things) I had to endure this ad with this smiling middle-aged couple going on and on about how much fun it's gonna be when the guy gets his dick-extender/enlarger product that the ad is selling.

Super large drivers and hopped up golf balls are the least of my disappointments these days.

[Anthony Gray]

Anthony:

I don't want to hear anything else about any genies and their bottles or how in the hell they all got out of them. The fact is there can't be a single genie left in a bottle in America. It's pretty much "Katie Bar the Door" now.

I mean for a few years I've had to suffer through all these pretty looking ads on female cycle products and female hygene products but the other day (and I think on a golf broadcast of all things) I had to endure this ad with this smiling middle-aged couple going on and on about how much fun it's gonna be when the guy gets his dick-extender/enlarger product that the ad is selling.

Super large drivers and hopped up golf balls are the least of my disappointments these days.

  Tom,

  I am glad that we see eye to eye on this topic. Without performance enhancers from that bottle I would not have these two.







 

[Mike Benham]

Very few solutions being offered in this thread.

With the world recession, stimulus and a fundamental change to business and personal wealth, I offer these simple solutions and alternatives:

1.  Require all courses to have yardage markers, perhaps every 10 yards, of some sort and/or rent yardage gauging devices.  This requirement will foster an increase of production (result = more jobs, tax revenue) of yardage markers, plates, etc. and perhaps spawn new innovative technologies.  

2.  Charge for the use of yardage markers, distance measure devices, etc. based on use.  In the same pricing model as carts, courses can charge golfers for use of the yardage markers.  It would be a pre-pay plan ($ .50 per view or $ 15 for unlimited viewing of the distances placed on sprinkler heads, $ 10 use fee for using your own laser device, etc.).


The world as we know it is changing, so is the business of golf.  
  

[Rob Rigg]

Tom,

Great idea, I'm sure the lobbying groups of Garmin et al will sign up for it in a second - especially since electronic yardage devices seem to be the only golf item flying off the shelves these days . . .

There would certainly be initial "slow play" pains to go through as people rip 3 irons over the green from 150 yards away but I agree that over time it would raise the average golfers conciousness to a higher level as experience on particular courses builds. Unfortunately, many golfers do not want this as has been discussed. The American cultural mantra of -  Make it easy, make me stupid, do whatever you want as long as I score better - is completely juxtaposed with taking away yardage.

As I mentioned on a previous thread, it seems like golf is being compartmentalized into several very different games - ie) cart golf, walking golf, range finder golf, 460cc golf, hickory golf, persimmon/forged golf, dream golf, fazio golf, professional golf, etc.

I think the reason for this falls squarely at the feet of the USGA because it is their responsibility to put guard rails on the game.

Another reason is the proliferation of public golf courses. If the average golfer lives in a city with 100 public courses and he plays 20 different courses once or twice a year then distance information is much more important to scoring. If a golfer plays 20 times a year at his private club then after a few rounds it is much less relevant.

That raises the question of scoring and the obsession in the US with handicap. If we all played matches then the question of interpreting distance becomes an exciting element of the match. In stroke play format on an unfamiliar course, not knowing distance just pisses people off.

I'll happily sign the petition to the USGA to get rid of distance info - who's putting it together

[Tom Huckaby]

Rob:  you delineated the roadblocks quite well.

It would certainly not be easy... the backlash would be HUGE and angry, for all the reasons you state.

I just wonder if over time it would work itself out... every issue you raise would seem to me to fade away over time, as people adapt....

But of course it doesn't matter if it never gets a chance.  And yes, there really isn't a snowball's chance in hell that said chance will be given.

SO... it remains an interesting what-if.

[Anthony Gray]

  I have noticed a trend with the young players that club selection is based on distance rather than shot type. Rarely do I see a youg player take an extra club for a knock down shot or take a three quarter swing into the wind.

   Anthony

[C. Squier]

  I have noticed a trend with the young players that club selection is based on distance rather than shot type. Rarely do I see a youg player take an extra club for a knock down shot or take a three quarter swing into the wind.

   Anthony

I think this falls under the category of not throwing a curveball until you're 16. If you can hit a stock shot, getting fancy doesn't make a lot of sense. Whether that is a high flying shot to soft greens in the Northeast or low runners in Texas.

PS - from the looks of the pic you posted, you out-kicked your coverage....twice. Great looking family

[TEPaul]

"I'll happily sign the petition to the USGA to get rid of distance info - who's putting it together   "


Rob:

Don't know who's putting it together but I can tell you the chances are the USGA will just label that what they used to call "Bed-bug letters" and file it accordingly.   
 
 
 

[Tom Huckaby]

"I'll happily sign the petition to the USGA to get rid of distance info - who's putting it together   "


Rob:

Don't know who's putting it together but I can tell you the chances are the USGA will just label that what they used to call "Bed-bug letters" and file it accordingly.   
 
 
 

So we'll go to the R&A.   

[Jim_Kennedy]

What's forgotten is that the vast majority of players in the US are not on the golf course for the same reason as someone who disdains the use of all the modern devices like:
range finders -X
yardage markers -X
ProV1s -X
spiked shoes -X
tees
bags
motor carts -x
pull carts -X
steel shafts -X
graphite shafts -X
rubber grips -X
cavity back investment cast irons -X
titanium drivers/fwy woods -X
sand wedges -X
chest length putters -X
belly putters -X
sunglasses
gore-tex rain gear
gloves -X
 
X= Big Aid! 

I got tired of typing.

If you use any 'aid' on the above menu you cannot lay claim to being a purist, you are a cafeteria golfer and lose any moral high ground in this argument, but I'm sure that won't stop anyone from rationalizing it in any way that floats their boat.   

[Tom Huckaby]

Jim:

I can also rationalize using all of those things, and still wanting to eliminate distance information.

I care not about being a purist.  In fact I am insulted if anyone calls me that, which anyone who's ever read a word of mine here sure would not (outside of wanting to insult me). 

I also could give a rat's ass about a moral high ground.

I just see a game that would be more fun, and give some other benefits already described.  I realize it has no chance of occurring.  However it does remain a fun what-if.

 

[Jim_Kennedy]

Huck,
That's 'cause you are a golf slut. 

I was speaking to no one in particular, but since you replied...
How far do you normally hit your 7 iron, 150?, well now that you know that you can throw it away, along with all the other irons in your bag, because once you know how far you hit each and every one of them you are no longer getting the benefits out of playing the game eschewed by Ralph.

The skill level needed to pull a specific club after reading a yardage marker vs. estimating the yardage and pulling a club is minimal,  especially when you know the built-in yardage you get from that club.

So, unless you're going to Play-Like-Ralph,  you only need to close your eyes as you walk by the signage on the par 3s, and don't look for the yardage markers on the course.

[Kirk Gill]

While I, for one, find the notion of playing without any distance aids at all very intriguing, I don't consider that position akin to taking any moral high ground. I think it's interesting, and worthwile, and that's all. TomP, I'm sure you're right about the reaction of the USGA, and most golfers would probably think it's silly, and wouldn't spend a moment of their lives fretting about the issue. Maybe that's part of WHY I am so intrigued by the idea. What if...........

And Jim, I don't need to eschew the distances on the par 3 signs, either. First of all because the tees are never exactly at that distance, and second because I always look at the sign and then look at the hole and say to myself....."sure looks like less than 187 to me," or whatever. I'm just not very trusting, I suppose.

[Kyle Harris]

You know, none of those guys back in the 19th century never really practiced on ranges. How soon until we can all feel guilty for hitting the range every so often?

Maybe these guys were so complacent and satisfied with their games they never sought a competitive edge. The notion that a person who played the game 400 years into its evolution defines what is part and parcel to its ethics is going to lead to some rather poorly judged conclusions and nobody has answered the integral question:

Has the game been broken by the addition of yardage information to the golf course?

[Kyle Harris]

Kyle: just FYI, I've probably hit less that 20 buckets of balls in the last 5 years, 90 percent of the because I'm a cheap ass who only hits them when a friend is running really late to the tee or when they're free at a charity event or whatever.

They're stupid too, IMO. But since they're not part of the stipulated round, they're outside the rules and always should be - like making lots of money or hugging your kids so as to relieve stress so you can make 3 footers for $50 and not worry about it.

I'm not a range rat anymore, either.

Stipulated round. When does that begin and end? (I am DEAD serious) What does information gathered about the golf course outside of a stipulated round matter during the stipulated round?

How would you word a rule about yardage information that won't be broken?

[Michael Moore]

They're stupid too, IMO.

David -

What's stupid about the practice range?

[C. Squier]

Jim - you want to talk about aids?  You forgot the biggest aid ever created:  The handicap system.  I think it is proof positive that aids can benefit the game of golf.  One of the best things about our sport is that a 2 handicap can have a fun match with a 20.  However, there is little reason that a 2 handicap that's devoted the time and effort (and money) to get to their level should ever lose a competitive round to a 20. 

I'll repeat what I said earlier in this thread:  We worry about aids that marginally help golfers (distance aids), but we routinely allow the skill achieved by the low handicapper to be nullified in an instant with the handicap system.  Why no uproar?  Surely Old Tom (or any competitive Scot in their day) wouldn't want their talent advantage taken away so nonchalantly. 

(not to be confused, I'm glad we have the handicap system....)

[Jim_Kennedy]

There weren't even any rules governing B&I until 1908 for clubs (limited to plain in shape) and 1921 for balls. That would seem to mean that there weren't enough advances in equipment to give them much thought, at least not for the first 3/4s of golf's history.

There has never been any prohibition against knowing yardages. Even before markers or yardage books came on the scene, no ruling body has ever seen a player that knows his yardages as harmful to the game. As yardage markers/books became more popular I'm sure some prig questioned an opponent's use of them, saying they were 'artificial aids', and weren't allowed under the rules pertaining to 'advice'. That may have led to the addition of 'public knowledge' (1984) as an acceptable form of advice. Equity, in the rules since 1891, may have the guiding principle behind adding those words. Since knowing yardages had never been previously addressed in the rules you have to conclude that yardage markers/books are little different than making one's own map of the course, and there has never been any prohibition against doing that. Sounds like an equitable decision.
Finally, even if you were trying to make the case that a map made by a player, his caddie, his partner, or his partner's caddie wasn't an'artificial aid', you would always be up against the problem of proof that it was them, and only them, that drew it up. Good luck with that approach.
 
I went to Ralph Livingston's site,  http://www.hickorygolf.com/ , and it's well worth the time spent looking around.

[Sean_A]

There weren't even any rules governing B&I until 1908 for clubs (limited to plain in shape) and 1921 for balls. That would seem to mean that there weren't enough advances in equipment to give them much thought, at least not for the first 3/4s of golf's history.

There has never been any prohibition against knowing yardages. Even before markers or yardage books came on the scene, no ruling body has ever seen a player that knows his yardages as harmful to the game. As yardage markers/books became more popular I'm sure some prig questioned an opponent's use of them, saying they were 'artificial aids', and weren't allowed under the rules pertaining to 'advice'. That may have led to the addition of 'public knowledge' (1984) as an acceptable form of advice. Equity, in the rules since 1891, may have the guiding principle behind adding those words. Since knowing yardages had never been previously addressed in the rules you have to conclude that yardage markers/books are little different than making one's own map of the course, and there has never been any prohibition against doing that. Sounds like an equitable decision.
Finally, even if you were trying to make the case that a map made by a player, his caddie, his partner, or his partner's caddie wasn't an'artificial aid', you would always be up against the problem of proof that it was them, and only them, that drew it up. Good luck with that approach.
 
I went to Ralph Livingston's site,  http://www.hickorygolf.com/ , and it's well worth the time spent looking around.

Jim

You are missing the point.  I don't think anybody is advocating the banning of knowing yardages, at least I ain't.  I am advocating that the knowledge of yardage (distance, type of shot whatever) be gained through experience rather than gifted as some sort of divine right.  I don't like the idea that a guy can whip out a machine and in that instant go a long way to wiping out someone else's advantage perhaps gained through years of experience.  What will it be next?  Guys will have little machines which crank out the firmness of the ground so players can more accurately judge the roll out?  IMO, I don't see any difference between devices which could gauge distance, wind or firmness of the ground.  They would all go some distance to reducing fundamental judgement skills and the knowledge that experience brings. 

Aren't there some courses out there without distance markers?  I am sure I have played some, but I don't recall.  How do the members of these clubs get on?

Ciao 

[Kyle Harris]

Aren't there some courses out there without distance markers?  I am sure I have played some, but I don't recall.  How do the members of these clubs get on?

Ciao 

Did you get to play Merion on your Philly trip? No yardages there, even on the Par 3s.

Caddies with an encyclopedic knowledge of the golf course.

At least SkyCaddie will NEVER be hung over...

[Sean_A]

Aren't there some courses out there without distance markers?  I am sure I have played some, but I don't recall.  How do the members of these clubs get on?

Ciao 

Did you get to play Merion on your Philly trip? No yardages there, even on the Par 3s.

Caddies with an encyclopedic knowledge of the golf course.

At least SkyCaddie will NEVER be hung over...

Kyle

You know what?  I never even noticed about yardage markers at Merion.  I spose I really am not terribly bothered by yardage if it isn't readily available.  I don't recall asking my caddie for yardage and I don't think he volunteered it in most cases.  Maybe he was double looping - yes, I think he was because he often left me with a handful of clubs and disappeared, but I am not sure.  I also recall being well off with my club selection a few times.  I thought the 3rd was much longer than it is (from one of the frontish tees), but my ballooned 5 iron was pin high - pure luck.  I also recall coming up short on #11 with my approach, but this time I hit it solid and was surprised at the splash.  I gotta get back to Merion.

Ciao     

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