[Tom Huckaby]

I take back what I said about the range finder.  I think Old Tom would have abhored the range finder and the cheater line for retarding the mental acuity and judgment necessary to play the Game, but would have embraced B&I advances because B&I advances have been part of the Game for as long as there's been the Game.

So Dave, assuming given your vociferous stances in this thread you shall be from this point forward eschewing all distance information as you play the game, can you enlighten us as to:

a) how you will manage to not notice any of it - please give self-blinding techniques; and

b) from what slush fund shall you derive the means to cover your expected losses to your opponents?

Or is this a case of... no, can't be... do as I say, not as I do?

 

TH

ps - Jim - he deserves no credit for any of this... he's just shifting one contrarian stance to the contrarian order of the day, as he found more opponents on this side... arguing against Melvyn would have been going with the majority, and thus far too easy! 

[Brad Tufts]

When I read this thread, all I can hear is Jim Carrey's awful "eeeeeeeeeeeeeeehh" squeal in Dumb & Dumber.

I don't have an agenda, other than saying "why do we have to have an agenda?"

I understand that you, Melvyn, protect what you feel is the purest, cleanest, best way that golf can be played.  That is abundantly clear.  That is your path to the enjoyment of the game.  You have been taught to play the game a certain way, and it is admirable you stick to it.

But why is that the ONLY way it can be?

Personally, I enjoy golf for the practice, for the mental workout, and to see if the combination of the two can produce something special that day.  I totally admit that I am a slave to distance.  I like to know my exact yardage if I can find it, even if I'm not skilled enough to use the exactness of the number.  Golf is a technical game for me, and I prefer to fly my shots near the hole.  I have learned that this approach is the most efficient way to better scores or match play victories, for me anyway. 

Would I like to be able to look at a shot and hit it 4 different ways?  Sure!  But 9 of 10 times a high shot that stops on a dime works for me.  If I had grown up over a links course, I would certainly have more shots in my repetoire.  Hell that's why I love going over there so much, because it multiplies the options.

However, that is not how golf is for me.  I play a decent game that is efficient through the air.  Conditions in Boston in the summer are generally benign, the ground is medium to firm.  I play in many local amateur events where everyone looks for the spraypainted yardage on the par 3s, if they don't already have a (recently-legalized for competition by the MGA) rangefinder.  I work an hour from my home course, so much of my golf is with the use of a cart.  I choose 18 holes in 2-2.5 hrs. over walking 11 of them before dark.  So sue me.   

You might call my golf perspective depressing, or my locale and conditions of play unfortunate.  However, in the framework of my life currently (i.e. not in Scotland, not in the 1860s, not with a gutty), I find quite a bit of enjoyment out of golf in New England. 

People love golf for many reasons.  Some because they like to challenge themselves and eyeball a distance, some because they like to challenge themselves to hit the ball the exact distance the laser tells them to.  Some because a golf cart allows them to get in 18 in 2 hours after work, or 36+ in a day without needing a new set of leg tendons afterward.

I tend to think that somewhere in your theories you are looking out for us, Melvyn, combatting what might be the undoing of the game, the runaway ball, course lengthening, and other departures from the game's roots.  Totally cool.  I just worry you are isolating yourself. 

You have mentioned a few times how GCA is a discussion group and it's a forum of opinions, etc... but you only have one, and it's so fiercely defended that the discussion is no longer a game of catch.  Your opinion seems to just be bouncing back to you off a brick wall... 

[Kirk Gill]

Tom, for myself I'd say that genies such as this one tend to remain unbottled. In things of far greater import than the game of golf, change can be both hailed as progress, or decried in the name of tradition, respect, or out of bull-headedness. I love that there's nothing to prevent Melvyn or anyone else from playing the game the way they wish, under the rules. Maybe the presence of cart paths is intrusive to the aesthetics of the game, but if one wants to walk then in most cases that is still a workable, available option. One can use gps or distance-finders......or not.

The competitive arena is where a lot of the notions of how golf Should Be Played obviously become larger issues because of the reality that certain competitors can't have unfair advantage over others (even though some might choose to deal with self-imposed limitations). I know that carts aren't allowed on the PGA tour, but local or club competitions might be different. The use of distance aids may not be allowed, but caddies who provide much the same information are allowed. That's a conundrum that I don't encounter much or at all, as I don't play competitive golf. However, given how competitive many folks are, I'm sure that these are contentious issues to those who participate. I guess that's why we put our trust in governing bodies, and hope for the best. And those bodies have a lot of different people to try and please.

[Tom Huckaby]

Kirk:

You've hit on a couple key issues here, those that I also see preventing getting that genie back in (assuming that's a wise idea, which I am just accepting for sake of argument here):

1.  There may be nothing to prevent Melvyn from playing the game the way he wishes - he must play on courses that are either sparsely marked or not marked at all (though I sure didn't encounter many of those in Scotland myself), but I look forward to Dave answering my questions.  That is, as much as he WANTS to TRY to do this (and he knows that I know that he really doesn't; he's just being his contrarian self here and does not enjoy losing money on the golf course), I just believe it would be tantamount to impossible to fully ignore all the distance information that is available on courses here in the USA.  It's pervasive at damn near all golf courses... one would truly have to play with blinders on.

2.  Competition - heck yeah, it's one thing to play a certain way due to principle, quite another to cede advantage to the field (or an opponent).  Only if ALL play this way will it truly work.  Caddie are no issue - if we reach this no-distance info fantasy world, they could be re-trained.  That is, they just plain don't give distance information, as I fully believe they did not for many years in the game's infancy.  

So as I see it, the genie remains.  Perhaps each of us are quixotic in different ways... me for continuing the discussion here, him for believing the genie can be re-bottled.

 

[Tom Huckaby]

LOVE IT - we can resort to Mucci-ing each other....

So Dave, assuming given your vociferous stances in this thread you shall be from this point forward eschewing all distance information as you play the game, can you enlighten us as to:

a) how you will manage to not notice any of it - please give self-blinding techniques; and

I haven't a clue.  But I'm not saying that they can be ignored.   It's basically impossible to walk over a 150 marker in the middle of the fairway (not that I'm actually there very often) and not notice it.  Distance grafffiti is basically unavoidable.

BINGO - so why the hell make the argument?

b) from what slush fund shall you derive the means to cover your expected losses to your opponents?

I don't bet with guys I don't know anyway, so that part doesn't matter.

Surprised you so massively miss the point - which is if you play this un-watered down game - as I have to believe you are going to try, given your arguments here - then they have info, you don't.  And you WILL lose, no matter how well you know them.  Or are you saying you are just talking out of your ass here?  You're NOT going to play this pure as the driven snow way you advocate? 

Or is this a case of... no, can't be... do as I say, not as I do?

I didn't ask anybody to put on blinders and ignore distance graffiti.  All I asked people to do is realize that because of unavoidability of distance graffiti, we're all playing a lesser game.

  OK, we get that.  But what's the point?  Damn near everyone has played this way their entire lives... of course it's a lesser game... but why make the point if you don't intend to try to play the superior way?  What the hell does it matter? 

 

TH

ps - Jim - he deserves no credit for any of this... he's just shifting one contrarian stance to the contrarian order of the day, as he found more opponents on this side... arguing against Melvyn would have been going with the majority, and thus far too easy! 

So??
So I am just calling a spade a spade.  Glad you admit to it. Now just as Mucci can be ignored for being eristic, you can and should be because you admit to talking out of your ass, in your contrarian viewpoint of the day manner.   Love ya though. 
 

[Tom Huckaby]

LOVE IT - we can resort to Mucci-ing each other....

So Dave, assuming given your vociferous stances in this thread you shall be from this point forward eschewing all distance information as you play the game, can you enlighten us as to:

a) how you will manage to not notice any of it - please give self-blinding techniques; and

I haven't a clue.  But I'm not saying that they can be ignored.   It's basically impossible to walk over a 150 marker in the middle of the fairway (not that I'm actually there very often) and not notice it.  Distance grafffiti is basically unavoidable.

BINGO - so why the hell make the argument?

The argument is made so that people realize the extent of what is, and what should be, not necessarily what will be.

b) from what slush fund shall you derive the means to cover your expected losses to your opponents?

I don't bet with guys I don't know anyway, so that part doesn't matter.

Surprised you so massively miss the point - which is if you play this un-watered down game - as I have to believe you are going to try, given your arguments here - then they have info, you don't.  And you WILL lose, no matter how well you know them.  Or are you saying you are just talking out of your ass here?  You're NOT going to play this pure as the driven snow way you advocate? 

I won't lose if I get enough shots...and I can't believe that YOU so massively miss the point, which is that I haven't said one single time that I intend to play this way.  Why?  Because it's impossible with the courses littered with distance graffiti.

Or is this a case of... no, can't be... do as I say, not as I do?

I didn't ask anybody to put on blinders and ignore distance graffiti.  All I asked people to do is realize that because of unavoidability of distance graffiti, we're all playing a lesser game.

  OK, we get that.  But what's the point?  Damn near everyone has played this way their entire lives... of course it's a lesser game... but why make the point if you don't intend to try to play the superior way?  What the hell does it matter? 

It matters because those who do not understand history are doomed to repeat it.

 

TH

ps - Jim - he deserves no credit for any of this... he's just shifting one contrarian stance to the contrarian order of the day, as he found more opponents on this side... arguing against Melvyn would have been going with the majority, and thus far too easy! 

So??
So I am just calling a spade a spade.  Glad you admit to it. Now just as Mucci can be ignored for being eristic, you can and should be because you admit to talking out of your ass, in your contrarian viewpoint of the day manner.   Love ya though. 
 

You still owe me a beer...

The hell I do.  I owe shivas a beer.  I know no DSchmidt.   

[Kalen Braley]

You guys need to start using different colors...getting confusing as to who said what.. 

[Tom Huckaby]

You guys need to start using different colors...getting confusing as to who said what.. 

He and I know.  You mean others seriously WANT to read this?

[RSLivingston_III]

Does anyone here think the original topic got settled?
Did anyone even bother to read the historical information I posted (way back) on page 3?
No one ever responded to it so I assume they didn't want facts to interfere.

[Tom Huckaby]

Does anyone here think the original topic got settled?
Did anyone even bother to read the historical information I posted (way back) on page 3?
No one ever responded to it so I assume they didn't want facts to interfere.

Ralph - I would hazard a guess that Bob would admit his original topic was meant to be tongue in cheek, prodding Melvyn to admit inconsistency.

But yes, seems to me it's clear that Old Tom was not actually the standard bearer for range finders.

 

[Kalen Braley]

You guys need to start using different colors...getting confusing as to who said what.. 

He and I know.  You mean others seriously WANT to read this?

I hang on every word!!! 

[RSLivingston_III]

I am finding it very disturbing that people are beating up on Melvin and mis-stating what he has said. How many times does he have to say he doesn't care how others are playing there game and he just wants to be left alone in playing his?
You guys don't realize how hard it is to play a traditional game anymore. People, like many on here, won't let you. Trust, me I know.
I have solved it by playing alone or, on occasion, with other hickory players. Yes, there was a time more than a decade a go that I was pushing playing hickories on others, but learned quickly to just offer it to people that showed interest.
I remember when I first went to Scotland there wasn't any kind of yardages to be found. Now it seems like all the courses are being pushed to become US resort courses.
You can't get away from modernized golf any more. Traditional golf could be lost for good, and when it is the game will be poorer for it. The handful of us researching and trying to keep it around will be gone soon enough and the knowledge we bear will probably be lost forever.

Keep beating up Melvin, you guys. At least some here realize what a stupid ass idea that is. If he leaves this site because of it... (wheres the head shaking icon)

I can only hope that some day I might be able to sit with him in some pub for a couple of hours and talk.

[Craig Sweet]

RALPH...I replied to the historic information you posted back on page three...

Here is what I posted:


"Ralph..so you are saying they had no interests in knowing that the shot they "felt", and hit, was 20 paces?  I find that a bit difficult to belief.  A HUGE part of programing that "feel" in the brain comes form a curiosity of knowing the distance...using your eyes...sizing up the distance, and giving it your best 20 paces swing.... "

I know that a typical swing with a club will result in a certain outcome...yes there are other factors influencing that outcome...but, never the less...I know a certain swing typically produces a shot of a certain distance...now, how that swing "felt" , and the result, (how far it went)  is programed into my brain....

Isn't it human nature to wonder, at some point, how far that ball went?

[Kalen Braley]

After all these posts, I still fail to see how its beyond reason to beleive that they could have known a few yardages on a few or even many of the holes after pacing them informally or otherwise and taking mental notes.  Or is it really a stretch that a caddie eager to please could have figured this out in thier spare time and verbally supplied this information to them?

I fully beleive Melyvn that yardage books or other references are not written anywhere, but it doesn't mean they couldn't have verbally talked about it.

Is it written what these blokes ate for dinner or where they slept at night?  If not, does this mean we are to beleive they never ate dinner or slept?

[Tom Huckaby]

I am finding it very disturbing that people are betting up on Melvin and mis-stating what he has said. How many times does he have to say he doesn't care how others are playing there game and he just wants to be left alone in playing his?
You guys don't realize how hard it is to play a traditional game anymore. People, like many on here, won't let you. Trust, me I know.
I have solved it by playing alone or, on occasion, with other hickory players. Yes, there was a time more than a decade a go that I was pushing playing hickories on others, but learned quickly to just offer it to people that showed interest.
I remember when I first went to Scotland there wasn't any kind of yardages to be found. Now it seems like all the courses are being pushed to become US resort courses.
You can't get away from modernized golf any more. Traditional golf could be lost for good, and when it is the game will be poorer for it. The handful of us researching and trying to keep it around will be gone soon enough and the knowledge we bear will probably be lost forever.

Keep beating up Melvin, you guys. At least some here realize what a stupid ass idea that is. If he leaves this site because of it... (wheres the head shaking icon)

I can only hope that some day I might be able to sit with him in some pub for a couple of hours and talk.

Ralph:

You and I have conversed many times before over the years; you may recall you gave me great advice in acquiring hickory clubs.  I am a very inactive, but yes still registered (I think) member of the Society of Hickory Golfers, in a large part thanks to YOU introducing me to such.

So perhaps that gives a little background.

I for one am certainly not "betting (sic) up on Melvyn."  Perhaps you haven't read prior threads.... but I'd venture to guess many here can confirm, I am simply defending myself.  

And not to get into these battles AGAIN, but well... if in fact Melvyn was sincere in the fact "he doesn't care how others are playing there game and he just wants to be left alone in playing his?" none of us would have any issue.

The fact is, however, that Melvyn does believe his way to be the "pure" form of the game, and that all of us who do not follow it are necessarily then not really playing golf, miss the spirit of the game, etc.  Some - like myself - take offense to this, in its implications.  But Melvyn can also say whatever he wishes... he does tend to repeat time and time again what you say... but then he also - as he did today in a reply to me - uses very harsh words and tones, and states that the way we play is a "problem" that needs to be fixed.

That doesn't sound like live and let live to me.

I am trying my best to converse with him rationally and without rancor... still at times he lumps me in with all that is bad for hte game... assuming he knows how I play.  You of all people should understand otherwise.

It is I who wants to live and let live.  Seems to me Melvyn couldn't be farther from that.  Read his reply to me today.

TH

[PCCraig]

Isn't it human nature to wonder, at some point, how far that ball went?

Yes!!!!!!!!!!!!

That is why this arguement of wandering around a golf course aimlessly searching for "pure" golf and scorning others for using a yardage is nutso.

Ralph-

I'm not sure how to answer to the "ah shucks everyone picks on hickory players" post. Only perhaps that I think its cool that you are actually going out every day with a set of hickory clubs, but unrealistic to think you can play a game by "feel." I have played with hickories before, and while fun and I found it not nearly as hard to do as one would think, its just not the same game everyone else is playing. It's like playing horse when everyone else is playing 3-on-3.

If you walked up to the tee in +4's and your bag of old style clubs I would think "ok...let's see what he can do." Never "why don't you wait for the next group." (Like you made it seem like).

[RSLivingston_III]

That isn't the way they played! They didn't have cards with yardage. They didn't pace anything off.
They were playing matches in under 2 hrs. How would they do that if you were concentrating on yardage in any way, shape or form?
Do you pace off your short pitches, chips, or putts? Or do you just play them by feel? Do you look at it and say to yourself that it looks to be 20 ft. and maybe you should grip down an extra 1/2"?

Is it really that hard to think that 150 years ago the whole game might have been played that way?

I don't know how to better say it. If you haven't played the game that way, you will never understand.


Clarification: when I said they new the "distances" on the courses they played I was refering to the 1 shot holes and by "knowing it" I meant they knew it was a 3/4 General Iron on a benine day.

I over simplified my statements to keep from writing a small book. Long detailed posts usually are semi ignored. And historical facts are thoroughly ignored.

[RSLivingston_III]

Isn't it human nature to wonder, at some point, how far that ball went?

Yes!!!!!!!!!!!!

That is why this arguement of wandering around a golf course aimlessly searching for "pure" golf and scorning others for using a yardage is nutso.

Ralph-

I'm not sure how to answer to the "ah shucks everyone picks on hickory players" post. Only perhaps that I think its cool that you are actually going out every day with a set of hickory clubs, but unrealistic to think you can play a game by "feel." I have played with hickories before, and while fun and I found it not nearly as hard to do as one would think, its just not the same game everyone else is playing. It's like playing horse when everyone else is playing 3-on-3.

If you walked up to the tee in +4's and your bag of old style clubs I would think "ok...let's see what he can do." Never "why don't you wait for the next group." (Like you made it seem like).

Tom,
You are wrong in that this issue will not ever be resolved. Too much spin on statements.
Case in point.

[Tom Huckaby]

Ralph:

Absolute statements are rarely true.  I read most long posts if they are of interest to me.  I accept historical facts too.

And I'd also appreciate a response to my post, directed to you.  You can make it off-line if you wish.

I just believe you have quite misjudged at least some of the characters in this drama.

 

LATE EDIT:  here am I Don Quixote..... yes Ralph, it likely never will be resolved.  Still, a fair judgment of the characters might be a bit nicer. 

[Kirk Gill]

I have to admit that I like the term "distance graffiti." I'll also admit that the more a golfer is self-reliant, the better, whether we're talking distance info or just getting around the course. I'll admit further that I grew up playing courses with 150-yard markers, and no other distance info, and that's what I'm used to. Thus, that's what I like.

"I know what I like, and I like what I know"

I also think that, for me, the more golf resembles science the less I personally enjoy it. At the same time, I know that not everyone feels the same way, and that I might not feel the same way if I had more at stake when I play than lunch or the occasional beer. I'll also freely admit that I'd love to spar over this or any other issue with the lot of you, over a beverage of your liking. I admire Melvyn, and his stands, and feel like this group has been enhanced by his presence. And I pretty much feel the same way about the rest of you, and your opinions, and your ways of expressing them.

And I still think that long putters are crap.

[RSLivingston_III]

Ralph:

Absolute statements are rarely true.  I read most long posts if they are of interest to me.  I accept historical facts too.

And I'd also appreciate a response to my post, directed to you.  You can make it off-line if you wish.

I just believe you have quite misjudged at least some of the characters in this drama.

 

LATE EDIT:  here am I Don Quixote..... yes Ralph, it likely never will be resolved.  Still, a fair judgment of the characters might be a bit nicer. 

Tom,
I can't seen to find a question directed at me from you. Could you repost?

Pat,
You have never "played" hickories. You have hit some balls around with some crappy old clubs. As far as I know, Ran is the only one on the site that has played hickories. Tom might have, but I don't know how many rounds he has under his belt.

edit:
And thanks for spinning a statement to establish my background into  "ah shucks everyone picks on hickory players".

[Tom Huckaby]

Ralph:

Absolute statements are rarely true.  I read most long posts if they are of interest to me.  I accept historical facts too.

And I'd also appreciate a response to my post, directed to you.  You can make it off-line if you wish.

I just believe you have quite misjudged at least some of the characters in this drama.

 

LATE EDIT:  here am I Don Quixote..... yes Ralph, it likely never will be resolved.  Still, a fair judgment of the characters might be a bit nicer. 

Tom,
I can't seen to find a question directed at me from you. Could you repost?

Pat,
You have never "played" hickories. You have hit some balls around with some crappy old clubs. As far as I know, Ran is the only one on the site that has played hickories. Tom might have, but I don't know how many rounds he has under his belt.

Ralph - I did an entire post directed to YOU and YOU ALONE.  Here it is, so you don't have to go back up this very page.     I suppose no direct QUESTION was directed to you... more comments... to which a response would be appreciated.  Such response can be a simple "OK, I get that" if you wish.   

Ralph:

You and I have conversed many times before over the years; you may recall you gave me great advice in acquiring hickory clubs.  I am a very inactive, but yes still registered (I think) member of the Society of Hickory Golfers, in a large part thanks to YOU introducing me to such.

So perhaps that gives a little background.

I for one am certainly not "betting (sic) up on Melvyn."  Perhaps you haven't read prior threads.... but I'd venture to guess many here can confirm, I am simply defending myself. 

And not to get into these battles AGAIN, but well... if in fact Melvyn was sincere in the fact "he doesn't care how others are playing there game and he just wants to be left alone in playing his?" none of us would have any issue.

The fact is, however, that Melvyn does believe his way to be the "pure" form of the game, and that all of us who do not follow it are necessarily then not really playing golf, miss the spirit of the game, etc.  Some - like myself - take offense to this, in its implications.  But Melvyn can also say whatever he wishes... he does tend to repeat time and time again what you say... but then he also - as he did today in a reply to me - uses very harsh words and tones, and states that the way we play is a "problem" that needs to be fixed.

That doesn't sound like live and let live to me.

I am trying my best to converse with him rationally and without rancor... still at times he lumps me in with all that is bad for hte game... assuming he knows how I play.  You of all people should understand otherwise.

It is I who wants to live and let live.  Seems to me Melvyn couldn't be farther from that.  Read his reply to me today.

TH

[Melvyn Morrow]

Kalen, Tom & All

By all means believe what you want, be happy that you believe everyone is yardage orientated and that it has been part of golf since it started.

I was always happy to present old reports, photos and articles on golf, but I have just realised that all of them do not tell the true story of golf, the bastard all these years have printed lies, so I have just taken all my files outside and had a massive fire. It’s still burning but I swear I thought I heard Old Tom whispering from the depth of the fire “that it is not true, it’s just their opinion”. But we all know it must be true as you all said it with such convection on GCA.com.

Thank for putting me straight guys, I fully understand the error of my ways, proof in actual opinions and you don’t get better that those on GCA.com.

You are right I have been banging my head against a brick wall. The truth is indeed out there, the modern man and women do fully comprehend those who went before them, because we THINK it happened so it must have been. I like that, but I keep trying it but for some reason that just does not work for me, but then I’m in the minority.

I am so pleased that you guys have won the debate (well certainly in your minds) but due to the concussion from head injuries sustained during this thread I have decided to retire gracefully to those parts unknown. My wife and our friends will start to enjoy our antiquated way of life on that small group of island sticking out into the Atlantic, just North of Europe. In the dead of night I will watch the continental plates move further and further apart and wonder if in time we will meet again on a natural contoured golf course close by the sea.

Perhaps that’s the impossible dream.

NYVLEM

[PCCraig]

Ralph:

Absolute statements are rarely true.  I read most long posts if they are of interest to me.  I accept historical facts too.

And I'd also appreciate a response to my post, directed to you.  You can make it off-line if you wish.

I just believe you have quite misjudged at least some of the characters in this drama.

 

LATE EDIT:  here am I Don Quixote..... yes Ralph, it likely never will be resolved.  Still, a fair judgment of the characters might be a bit nicer. 

Tom,
I can't seen to find a question directed at me from you. Could you repost?

Pat,
You have never "played" hickories. You have hit some balls around with some crappy old clubs. As far as I know, Ran is the only one on the site that has played hickories. Tom might have, but I don't know how many rounds he has under his belt.

Ralph-

What makes you so darn "pig-headed" is the fact that you really 100% believe that I never "played" hickories. That is an insane statement and in no way should you make that assumption.

Yes, Sir Ralph, I have PLAYED hickories.

TCC-Brookline owns two full sets (maybe 10-11 clubs, not an old crap set, but purchased that year) and one day while playing 36 holes of golf one of the Assistants let me take a set out for a round. As I stated before I didn't find them all that difficult after an adjustment period of 2 or 3 holes. I probably shot 6 strokes higher than I usually would have.

Ralph- In no way, shape, or form am I trying to disagree with anyone on here. But I HATE when people believe they know the secret to "pure" and "traditional" golf and somehow every normal golfer is some sort of virus. Give me a break.

Games and sports change. Period. Try going to the NBA and saying you want the three point line removed because that is not "traditional" basketball. Try telling football players to play with leather helmits. Baseball players to not use steriods. And hockey players to only play pond hockey.

[Tom Huckaby]

Kalen, Tom & All

By all means believe what you want, be happy that you believe everyone is yardage orientated and that it has been part of golf since it started.

I was always happy to present old reports, photos and articles on golf, but I have just realised that all of them do not tell the true story of golf, the bastard all these years have printed lies, so I have just taken all my files outside and had a massive fire. It’s still burning but I swear I thought I heard Old Tom whispering from the depth of the fire “that it is not true, it’s just their opinion”. But we all know it must be true as you all said it with such convection on GCA.com.

Thank for putting me straight guys, I fully understand the error of my ways, proof in actual opinions and you don’t get better that those on GCA.com.

You are right I have been banging my head against a brick wall. The truth is indeed out there, the modern man and women do fully comprehend those who went before them, because we THINK it happened so it must have been. I like that, but I keep trying it but for some reason that just does not work for me, but then I’m in the minority.

I am so pleased that you guys have won the debate (well certainly in your minds) but due to the concussion from head injuries sustained during this thread I have decided to retire gracefully to those parts unknown. My wife and our friends will start to enjoy our antiquated way of life on that small group of island sticking out into the Atlantic, just North of Europe. In the dead of night I will watch the continental plates move further and further apart and wonder if in time we will meet again on a natural contoured golf course close by the sea.

Perhaps that’s the impossible dream.

NYVLEM

Melvyn:

Please do not lump me in with that.  I fully believe the game was played originally without any sort of distance aids.  I just do not see why that matters TODAY in this world full of distance information... that is, how in any way shape or form the genie can get put back in the bottle.

Please do read my posts to you if you want to discuss this with me.  You have once again missed my point and mischaracterized my position.

Many thanks.

Tom H.

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