[Jeff Goldman]

There is too much supply for the demand for golf professionals.  Most established clubs have a number of assistants, who are already or in the process of becoming Class A PGA Prof's, and so obviously there is a large number of applicants for each job that opens.

One thing that sometime gets missed is how dicey some of these jobs are.  Many clubs have Boards that change with some frequency, and it's easy for a new board member or members to want to "make things better", especially if he blamed the pro for having to wait behind two groups, or the superintendent because he thought the course was in lousy condition when he brought out his brother from the coast (not noticing that the weather had been in the 90s with rain for three straight days), etc. etc., that can be it.

One other thing.  Anyone else notice the cycles of proshop ownership, whereby the pro owns the shop, makes a decent profit, the club decides it wants a piece of that, takes the shop back, runs it into the ground, gives it to the next pro to run, who makes a go of it, and the later board decides it wants a piece of it, takes it back, runs it into the ground........

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

I played my first ever county match at Sherwood Forest for Worcestershire colts...many moons ago.
I certainly cant remember details of the pro, but the combination of pro/sec would make sense for the way that most clubs in the UK are run.

The clubs of that particular size as Sherwood Forest/Blackmoor/Beau Desert..that kind of club somehwat away from suburbia would be well managed in such a way.

By the way...Is Whittington Barracks still going by the same name?
Happy memories of that place playing with Mark James and Martin Poxon

[jeffwarne]

There is too much supply for the demand for golf professionals.  Most established clubs have a number of assistants, who are already or in the process of becoming Class A PGA Prof's, and so obviously there is a large number of applicants for each job that opens.

One thing that sometime gets missed is how dicey some of these jobs are.  Many clubs have Boards that change with some frequency, and it's easy for a new board member or members to want to "make things better", especially if he blamed the pro for having to wait behind two groups, or the superintendent because he thought the course was in lousy condition when he brought out his brother from the coast (not noticing that the weather had been in the 90s with rain for three straight days), etc. etc., that can be it.

One other thing.  Anyone else notice the cycles of proshop ownership, whereby the pro owns the shop, makes a decent profit, the club decides it wants a piece of that, takes the shop back, runs it into the ground, gives it to the next pro to run, who makes a go of it, and the later board decides it wants a piece of it, takes it back, runs it into the ground........

Bingo,
We have a winner.

Although one look at most Board members portfolio now might suggest to them they're not quite as smart as they once thought

[Mark_Rowlinson]

Michael, It's now known as Whittington Heath, but the course is almost the same (remember the periscope?). http://www.whittingtonheathgc.co.uk/html/index.asp

[Rich Goodale]

All the professionals I know in Scotland have a retainer, get some sort of bonus for visitors rounds, own the shop concession (and get the space for free) and can do lessons.  As far as I can see most are doing very well, thank you, and at least one of them has taken over the role at another club to share costs nd increaew buying power.

As with any business, the good businesspeople will survive and the people who think that their employers owe them a living will be looking for another job or profession before long.

Just MHO.

[Bill_McBride]

At most busy places it's quite difficult for the pro to get time to play with their members and guests.  Many pros will do most anything to not look like they're ever taking a moment for themselves in a quest to keep their job and not give anyone a chance to point the finger, if even for a second.  It's too bad, because I think most members would enjoy the opportunity to get in some quality time with their pro on the golf course that brings them together in the first place.

Like I said above! 

[Adrian_Stiff]

Tom, I think the answer may be different in different countries. I'm not aware that there is an over-supply in the UK, but I could be wide of the mark. Your job as a professional at a well-run public facility with two or three courses, a driving range and other practice and teaching facilities can be very rewarding. A professional unlucky enough to be stuck at a stuffy old members' club might be very lonely.

There are probably three times as many golf pro's as there were in 1976 and in 1976 there were 92 scratch golfers in the country, I dont know how many now but perhaps 25x that??? Too many good golfers chasing the dream. I don't know the answer I guess they have to try though, only a small % are interested in 'falling back' to be a club pro...I think the club pro will die out although the future may lie in taking more management roles. That www is killing them, its taken a huge chunk away, and I am not sure some clubs will afford a £10,000 retainer soon.

[Jason McNamara]

Given that I've been reading about companies buying up a couple privates in certain areas, will the next step be having some (non-managing) pros split their time between clubs?

As an aside related to some of the pvs comments, one of my more enjoyable moments on the course was in a game where our head pro joined us.  He's a recognizable guy - not at the Haney / McLean level, but just below that.  Doesn't get to play much, due to admin tasks and other demands.  Anyway, we play this dogleg-right par 4 that always gave me fits.  He hits a nice fade up there 280, middle of the fairway but in a divot.  Gives it a look, about 120 to a tucked pin location, hits a low wedge to 15 feet, makes the putt.  Nothing to it.  Just a pleasure to watch.

[Rob Rigg]

Dave,

It always cracks me up when people talk about their "Clubs" in a non-chalant manner - some do this, others do that, the others do something else.

No malice here, it is something for the rest of us to aspire to, I just find it entertaining enough to call out. Chapeau my man!

I can remember one club where the pro added little value and just collected a check hiding in his office until a committee with cajones let him know it was time to retire after way way too long.

I have played at many other clubs where the pro took on a lot of responsibility, communicated well with the members and also presented a great "public face" as a representative of the club.

I hope in this market, the latter survive while the former are replaced with pros who have a wider skill set and abilities.

Like everywhere in Corporate America, this is a buyers market and those with skills will probably do well or at least maintain, while underperformers will not.

A good pro can still provide the heartbeat that keeps a club humming.

[Sean_A]

Dave,

It always cracks me up when people talk about their "Clubs" in a non-chalant manner - some do this, others do that, the others do something else.

No malice here, it is something for the rest of us to aspire to, I just find it entertaining enough to call out. Chapeau my man!

I can remember one club where the pro added little value and just collected a check hiding in his office until a committee with cajones let him know it was time to retire after way way too long.

I have played at many other clubs where the pro took on a lot of responsibility, communicated well with the members and also presented a great "public face" as a representative of the club.

I hope in this market, the latter survive while the former are replaced with pros who have a wider skill set and abilities.

Like everywhere in Corporate America, this is a buyers market and those with skills will probably do well or at least maintain, while underperformers will not.

A good pro can still provide the heartbeat that keeps a club humming.

Rob

I think the roles of members' committees and club pros are very much different in the UK.  In my experience at private clubs over here the pro isn't anything like the centre of the club.  The committees and Captain drive the club and there can be a huge difference to the quality of club life depending on how well the Captain and the committees are supported.  The pro really just supports this system here and there.  Sure you get the hang abouts at the pro shop, but often times many of these guys are committee men.   In a very real sense, the volunteer committees take on some of the responsibilities that a US pro would handle. 

Ciao

[Jon Wiggett]

Tom, I think the answer may be different in different countries. I'm not aware that there is an over-supply in the UK, but I could be wide of the mark. Your job as a professional at a well-run public facility with two or three courses, a driving range and other practice and teaching facilities can be very rewarding. A professional unlucky enough to be stuck at a stuffy old members' club might be very lonely.

There are probably three times as many golf pro's as there were in 1976 and in 1976 there were 92 scratch golfers in the country, I dont know how many now but perhaps 25x that??? Too many good golfers chasing the dream. I don't know the answer I guess they have to try though, only a small % are interested in 'falling back' to be a club pro...I think the club pro will die out although the future may lie in taking more management roles. That www is killing them, its taken a huge chunk away, and I am not sure some clubs will afford a £10,000 retainer soon.

Adrian,

from a UK point of view since my involvement in the game from the mid 70's there have been a whole series of things that were going to kill off the club pro but none off them have. The job has changed quite a bit and the pro has had to become much more professional in his business but I would suggest that he is better off now than he was 50 years ago.

Before your www it was the high street discount shops who were proceeded by the factory outlets all of whom were going to spell the end of the club pro.

I would suggest that there are many more people interested in becoming a club pro than there are positions. That www affects only the shop sales which are a small part of the profit that most pros make. That more people are taking lessons now than 25 years ago. That the £10'000 retainer (probably more) is very good value for the clubs when you start looking at the alternatives.

You are correct that the way forward for many will be going for a more manager based role but this suggest a plus for the pro and maybe a problem for the secretary!

[Adrian_Stiff]

John- I agree pretty much with what you are saying, lately things are much worse though with the internet, it will probably account for most shops in many business forms....I suppose its progress. I am not sure people have more lessons, our local pro's say it is dire. Golf needs new blood and thats happening less. We start a campaign from late April... 8 1 hour group lessons with a class of 8 similar standard (could be begginners) all clubs supplied, plus a coffee afterwards £19. The aim is to attract new people, we have a second course opening soon that is user friendly our main course is too hard.
Something else that has happened is that you used to be able to pay assistant professionals peanuts for working 50+ hours a week, you now need to pay them £5.52...that has added £10,000 per year to the pro's cost as he pays those direct. It is tough theres no doubt, and whilst you are right that more want to be club pro's than there are vacancys...its a dream really its not a great living at the lower level.

[Jon Wiggett]

Adrian,

you are spot on with the minimum wage deal costing the pro more. My first wage was £24 a week for a 60+ week in summer and even taking inflation into account it is a lot more expensive to employ people now than before. Having talked to a lot of pros in the UK recently the feeling that I get is that there is teaching out there if you have the right approach to developing it. Most lessons come through word of mouth and group courses are not usually all that successful as the people who go on them are usually attracted by the cheap price and will not pay the rate for private tuition.

I think one thing you need to remember is that the pro is the member of staff who has the longest day/week. Most shops are open from 8/9am ish through to 6/7pm ish in the summer and this 7 days a week. If the club had to employ someone for greenfee/competition fee collection then that would be expensive so £10'000 is a real bargin and most clubs will realise that this will not be the place to start cutting costs.

It is a sad thing but getting rid of a greenkeeper will save £20-25K per year with no loss of revenue though this should not be the way to go. I often think that the best way to do it is to decide a budget at the start of the year and then make sure it is stuck to. You can then subtract the greenfee, bar, etc. revenue from this figure and split the remainder amongst the members.

[Will Haskett]

I think, outside of the clubs where money is still not an issue, the role of the club professional is a shell of what it used to be, based on many factors already discussed on this forum.

I grew up in the 90's working as a caddie and back-room worker. It was my only job for almost a decade, and the local clubs all had your traditional system: older head professional with a couple of young assistants. In almost every situation, the following were characteristics you would see in almost every case:

1) The pro owned the shop and the merchandise (a lot of work, but a huge salary boost)
2) All the professionals could play AND teach
3) The members could ask the professionals any advice golf related

I went to college, and came out looking for a job and entered the business as an assistant (back in 2003) and the world of the club pro had already changed and continues to. With the almighty dollar influencing so many decisions, sacrifices have been made. More and more "professionals" in the shop are double-digit handicappers, and not who you want playing with the members. The merchandise has been taken away. At public courses, you sometimes see only a person running the register, probably for close to minimum wage.

And, contrary to some points on here, the bargain superstores have hurt business. I was an assistant at a club with a $40,000 initiation fee, and always heard gripes from the members that we charged $44 a dozen for Pro-V1 balls when they could get them for $40 at Dicks.

I think a lot of it has to do with the type of member some of these clubs are seeing. The technology boom brought a lot of money to people who did not grow up in the traditional club mentality. They can afford to join high-end clubs, but have no perspective on what the professional can be.

I still think the golf business is one of the best jobs out there, but the good opportunities are disappearing quickly. I only lasted 2 years before I had to make a better decision for my family, and I don't encourage many younger guys to explore the business.

[Casey Wade]

The golf business is not for everyone.

If you were in it and got out, good for you finding something that makes you happy.

If you have not been in it and are thinking about getting in, talk to both types, people like me who are happy with their jobs and situation and people who are not and then make your decision.

I'm typing this in between checking in groups and later I will be meeting a sales rep.

[ChipRoyce]

Hate to say it, but a good golf pro and his staff are really a luxury and not a neccesity.

Some best said it earlier, at a base level you need someone to act as starter and to take tee times.

Any other services above this become less and less neccesary if funds get tight.

I'm sure many will complain that you need someone to run tournaments, caddie programs, etc... but I'd imagine that in tough times this can be covered by a combination of volunteers and inexpensive staff members.

[Casey Wade]

Hate to say it, but a good golf pro and his staff are really a luxury and not a neccesity.

Some best said it earlier, at a base level you need someone to act as starter and to take tee times.

Any other services above this become less and less neccesary if funds get tight.

I'm sure many will complain that you need someone to run tournaments, caddie programs, etc... but I'd imagine that in tough times this can be covered by a combination of volunteers and inexpensive staff members.

I'm not going to complain, just disagree. 

A golf course is like a good bar.  "You want to go where everyone knows your name." 

Where do you go that you get that treatment by volunteers and inexpensive staff members?

[Casey Wade]

Also, I would much rather be a golf professional now than a stock broker!

[Adrian_Stiff]

Casey - I like your enthusiasm, I am sure you are good pro and the type clubs need, the problem is it is very tough in the UK and probably US to make a good living anymore. We had a slogan when I was an assistant "golfers who know buy from their pro" and most did.... the $44 pro v1 story someone told a few posts back is just so true. They will buy cheapest, the only thing I will say and give credit to members is they say things like " I can get a calloway xxx online for £59 can you match it"... sometimes trade price is £63 plus the ship.

[Will Haskett]

Casey,

I am thrilled that you have a great job. When I was 13 and starting out as a caddie, I hoped to be in probably the same position you are in today.

But, the reality is that I look at all of the clubs in my area, and most of them simply don't resemble the old-fashioned club professional model like they did 15+ years ago.

I know there are exceptions, and great clubs with great pros. Just fewer of them.

Here in Indiana, I know of some of the best players and teachers in the state that can't find a good club gig because of downsizing, budget cuts and other issues. It's the golf world we live in now.

[Jon Wiggett]

Hate to say it, but a good golf pro and his staff are really a luxury and not a neccesity.

Some best said it earlier, at a base level you need someone to act as starter and to take tee times.

Any other services above this become less and less neccesary if funds get tight.

I'm sure many will complain that you need someone to run tournaments, caddie programs, etc... but I'd imagine that in tough times this can be covered by a combination of volunteers and inexpensive staff members.

Chip,

do you really think that you will get volunteers to cover the time required? I don't think so. It is a fact that at most clubs you DO need some one to control who is playing and when. If you don't no one will pay any greenfees and your membership will dessert you.

So lets do the maths

200 days x 10 hours = 2000
164 days x 7 hours =   1148

total 3148 x £5 = £15,740

guess the pro is not such a luxury item working for £3.18 per hour on a £10,000 retainer. Of course this is for the UK, don't know what the situation is in the US

[Casey Wade]

That's why I said the golf business isn't for everyone.

I am not an old school golf professional at an old school golf course.

I will do anything that the facility needs me to do to make it profitable.  

We don't have a large staff in the golf shop.  Myself and 2 assistants.  We all make good money at a mid-high end public facility in the saturated Houston market.  By doing what needs to be done, regardless of what it may be, like picking the range, cooking, pulling carts, selling merchandise, taking tee times, and administering tournaments and giving lessons, we bring together a level of service and comraderie to the public and our members that beats our competition.  This cannot be done with volunteers and inexpensive staff.

We make it a great job.

[Jon Wiggett]

Casey,

I think your last line states the most important point

[Casey Wade]

Casey,

I think your last line states the most important point

Thank you Jon!

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