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Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Atrocious Partial Redesign
« on: February 10, 2009, 10:27:35 PM »
I avoided calling this thread "Worst Partial Redesign" and settle on the more ambiguous "Atrocious Partial Redesign."  While reading the recent Pine Brook in Weston thread, some one of  us went off on a Cornish renovation and it got me to thinking about Orchard Park Country Club, south of Buffalo, NY.  A Travis original (one of a bunch in the neighborhood...Stafford, Cherry Hill, Penn Hills, Lookout Point) that was defiled by Ault Clark and Associates back in the 1990s, OPCC now has a big pond that frames two totally non-Travis holes.  The club evidently did not like the claustrophobic nature of its two finishing holes and used some inappropriate land in the middle of the course for the replacements.  I imagine that this type of thread has made an appearance on GCADG before, albeit not during my time on the site.  Other candidates for the crown?
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Brad Klein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Atrocious Partial Redesign
« Reply #1 on: February 10, 2009, 10:40:57 PM »
On Ross courses alone, three come immediately to mind:

Inverness (3, 5-6, 8)

Plainfield's three holes across the road (13-15)

Shennecossett


Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Atrocious Partial Redesign
« Reply #2 on: February 11, 2009, 06:51:53 AM »
Blairgowrie in Scotland (MacKenzie / Braid)... Certainly the best inland heath / moor course in the country aside from Gleneagles Kings...

When the club decided to add a very average new 18 (designed by Peter Alliss and Dave Thomas), they got rid of the excellent 9th and 10th on the existing course to give to the new course... Two atrocious new non-descript holes were built on poor out of character turf and now seriously let down the old (Rosemount) course... In addition, the returning nines that once existed on the Rosemount are no longer in place...


James Bennett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Atrocious Partial Redesign
« Reply #3 on: February 11, 2009, 07:11:53 AM »
Eden
Bob; its impossible to explain some of the clutter that gets recalled from the attic between my ears. .  (SL Solow)

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Atrocious Partial Redesign
« Reply #4 on: February 11, 2009, 07:23:14 AM »
Ronald:

I thought the work at Orchard Park was done so that a big spanking new practice range could be constructed adjacent to the clubhouse, where the former 17th and 18th holes were.  I have seen that change made on three or four other courses and every one I've seen has been a disaster.

Clubs which make the range a priority over the golf course deserve to destroy themselves.

PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Atrocious Partial Redesign
« Reply #5 on: February 11, 2009, 08:59:28 AM »
Nugent's work on the course I used to work at growing up.

They added "beach bunkers" to a semi-interesting parkland muni called Wilmette outside Chicago. Since the park district is so freaking cheap, they have redesigned two holes at a time, each about 7 years apart. But all they really do is take out fariway bunkers, place fairway mounding, and redo the greens with different grasses than the other greens...blah!
H.P.S.

Lloyd_Cole

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Atrocious Partial Redesign
« Reply #6 on: February 11, 2009, 09:01:29 AM »
edited
« Last Edit: February 11, 2009, 09:05:23 AM by Lloyd_Cole »

D_Malley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Atrocious Partial Redesign
« Reply #7 on: February 11, 2009, 09:03:01 AM »
Ronald:

I thought the work at Orchard Park was done so that a big spanking new practice range could be constructed adjacent to the clubhouse, where the former 17th and 18th holes were.  I have seen that change made on three or four other courses and every one I've seen has been a disaster.

Clubs which make the range a priority over the golf course deserve to destroy themselves.

St. Davids comes to mind

Lloyd_Cole

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Atrocious Partial Redesign
« Reply #8 on: February 11, 2009, 09:04:30 AM »
Nugent's work on the course I used to work at growing up.


Hard to expect subtlety and sympathetic design from The Nuge! Sorry, I was drawn to this post after thinking that should a group of GCA minded musicians decide to form a prog rock band (I know there are prog fans here) - 'Atrocious Partial Redesign' should be their name.

Kyle Harris

Re: Atrocious Partial Redesign
« Reply #9 on: February 11, 2009, 09:06:49 AM »
Nugent's work on the course I used to work at growing up.


Hard to expect subtlety and sympathetic design from The Nuge! Sorry, I was drawn to this post after thinking that should a group of GCA minded musicians decide to form a prog rock band (I know there are prog fans here) - 'Atrocious Partial Redesign' should be their name.


Let's do it.

;)

David Stamm

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Atrocious Partial Redesign
« Reply #10 on: February 11, 2009, 09:51:29 AM »
La Cumbre

Bel Air

Ojai

Lakeside



.....and many, many others in So Cal.
"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

Rich Goodale

Re: Atrocious Partial Redesign
« Reply #11 on: February 11, 2009, 10:35:16 AM »
Ronald:

I thought the work at Orchard Park was done so that a big spanking new practice range could be constructed adjacent to the clubhouse, where the former 17th and 18th holes were.  I have seen that change made on three or four other courses and every one I've seen has been a disaster.

Clubs which make the range a priority over the golf course deserve to destroy themselves.

Tom

This is exactly what happened at Weston CC too.

Rich

PS--not only that, the driving range the got is medicore too...... :'(

rfg

Phil_the_Author

Re: Atrocious Partial Redesign
« Reply #12 on: February 11, 2009, 10:39:47 AM »
Ron & Tom,

It would be interesting to get an understanding of the evolution of Orchard Park to explain how it became what it is today.

For example, on August 26, 1935, Tilly, at the beginning of his PGA Course Consultation Tour, spent his entire day "On the two courses of the Park Country Club, first in inspecting the entire course at Orchard Park..." During this inspection he was accompanied members of the Golf & Green Committee's and the superintendent.

In far too concise terms, in his report to Jacobus at the PGA he explained what he saw and recommended:

"At Orchard Park I gave them a plan for a rearranged fifth hole, one of 565 yards; a reconstructed frist green; the elimination of numerous 'Duffers' Headache' bunkers (my new name for the superfluous pits that catch only very bad shots of the average golfer, and inspected new land that they anticipate using in the future, and advising them about it..."

I'm wondering if they ever purchased the "new land" and, if so, what they used it for? How did this effect where the practice facility is today?

The irony in this is that Tilly also visited the "other course" of the "Park Country Club", the Williamsville Course which was "sixteen miles distant." Among the important issues discussed there was to "Make room for a practice teeing area..."


Chris_Blakely

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Atrocious Partial Redesign
« Reply #13 on: February 11, 2009, 12:13:49 PM »
On Ross courses alone, three come immediately to mind:

Inverness (3, 5-6, 8)

Plainfield's three holes across the road (13-15)

Shennecossett

Did shenny have a choice - didn't they sell/swap a bunch of land to/with Phizer and then have to do a remodel.  Also, I agree the holes across the road on the ocean are out of place, but I thught the work the melds with the original holes was decent.  At a minimun, I would not have thought it qualifies for 'Atrocious partial redesign.'

Chris

Kirk Gill

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Atrocious Partial Redesign
« Reply #14 on: February 11, 2009, 12:50:07 PM »
Sorry, I was drawn to this post after thinking that should a group of GCA minded musicians decide to form a prog rock band (I know there are prog fans here) - 'Atrocious Partial Redesign' should be their name.

I'm in, 'though my chops might not be up to it!
"After all, we're not communists."
                             -Don Barzini

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Atrocious Partial Redesign
« Reply #15 on: February 11, 2009, 02:07:46 PM »
Mr. Tom,
You are probably correct.  I seem to recall a practice area "way out" in the middle of the course.  What they got is an unplayable par five (has to be played to be believed) where you can only drive the ball 210 from the tips.  They have the dreaded inbounds/on-course OB to stop people from cutting the corner.  It's horrific.
The 17th and 18th were good holes and deserved a better fate.  The other new one is a decent par four with a pond in front that would look good in a milder climate, not in the hearty northeast.


Mr. Philip,
I don't know what land they might have sought.  The course is bounded by roadways on the west and south, by train tracks on the east, and by neighborhoods on the north.  Do you by chance have any more from Tilly on that one?
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Atrocious Partial Redesign
« Reply #16 on: February 11, 2009, 03:15:38 PM »
Phil:

Park Country Club is a separate club, a Colt & Alison design in a different suburb.  Not positive if Tillinghast's report is on Orchard Park CC or another course in the suburb of that name.  If it was Orchard Park CC, some of us might've liked some of those "Duffer's Headaches" that Mr. Travis saw fit to put in!

Another club which replaced original holes with a practice range and made a mess in the process is Tillinghast's Rochester (MN).


Jeff_Mingay

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Atrocious Partial Redesign
« Reply #17 on: February 11, 2009, 03:33:25 PM »
Tom,

It's not entirely atrocious, but the skinny range they inserted left of the first hole at Pasatiempo hasn't done the situation there any favours, eh. When did that go in?

And, speaking of California courses, one of the coolest things about the Cal Club redo is the repositioning of the range there. It was in a really awkward position between holes 1 and 2 previously. Now it's in a nice, non-intrusive spot where golfers can hit driver without fear.
jeffmingay.com

Phil_the_Author

Re: Atrocious Partial Redesign
« Reply #18 on: February 11, 2009, 03:46:06 PM »
Ron,

No, that is the only thing that Tilly wrote. Is it possible that some of those roads didn't exist then? A very good possiblity are the neighborhoods to the north... Dis they get built later, especially after WW II.

There are probably mentions of this possible purchase in the Board meetings of the time. Sounds like a fun research project!

Tom,

The Park CC by Colt & Allison appears to actually be the "Williamsville" course that Tilly visited later in that same day and is the site of the original Park CC.

Now I'm very curious to learn more as I wonder if the club expanded and opened a second course at the Old Orchard site. Later on there must have been a split (Depression or WW II related?) and the two courses are now the home of two different golf clubs.

C&W alludes to this possibility as it lists two Park CC's in New York, with the second one also stating in parentheses "Now Orchard Park Club" and that it was designed by Travis while there is no listing for.

Another fun research question!

As for Rochester... they should be embarrassed over that decision!

Ed Homsey

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Atrocious Partial Redesign
« Reply #19 on: February 11, 2009, 06:11:03 PM »
The history of Orchard Park Country Club is an interesting one.  Orchard Park Country Club was incorporated in 1946 shortly after its founders purchased the 1916 Travis course from Park Country Club.  When Park CC had Travis design the course in Orchard Park they were situated on leased land in Buffalo that was not particularly desirable; plus their lease was scheduled to end in 1921.  So, they were looking for an alternative location.  For a period of time, Park CC maintained their Delaware Ave course in Buffalo and their "summer course" in Orchard Park.  Then, for reasons not clear, they purchased land in Williamsville, NY, a northeasterly suburb of Buffalo.  In 1924, Park CC asked Travis to assess this new land in terms of its suitability for a golf course.  In his correspondence, Travis approved of the site with the proviso that they acquire some additional adjacent land.  That course was designed by Colt and Allison in 1926 and construction was done by Harries and Hall.  Afterwards, Park CC continued to be a two course club, but the depression took a huge toll on their revenues and membership, and despite various attempts, they had to relinquish the Orchard Park course.  Thus, the sale of the Orchard Park course.  As an aside, and addressing the Tillinghast recommendations, the Park CC's history book mentions that "in 1941, new tees were constructed at Orchard Park to bring the course up to the requirements of the PGA".  The 5th hole recommendation by Tillinghast was not carried out (the hole he was referring to is now the 12th, and is in the same form as shown on early course maps).

I am in complete agreement with Ron's original nomination of the early 1990s renovation of OPCC by Ault as one of the worst.  I had several opportunities to play the course before that renovation, and always felt that their two closing holes were among the best holes on the golf course.  Their practice range, at the time, was located out in the area of the Ault created 5th hole and pond.  They wanted a better practice range, and they sacrificed two of their best holes--plus an original par 3 that had some problems.  Since the Ault renovation, some people have moved into positions of influence at OPCC who are aware and appreciative of the Travis connection.  They wish to preserve what is left of the original course, and they support renovation efforts that are consistent with the classic nature of the original course.  I believe that Renaissance Golf has had some influence at OPCC in recent years, and, possibly, Ian Andrew.

REgarding the question raised about purchasing additional land, per Tilly's recommendations:  From maps I've seen that predate Tilly's visit, it does not appear that any property has been added, and it's hard to see where property could have been added--other than to the east, perhaps.  The railroad and roads that border the property on the north, west, and south are the same as they existed originally, from what I can tell.

TMI??

Ed Homsey
Travis Society Archivist


mark chalfant

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Atrocious Partial Redesign
« Reply #20 on: February 11, 2009, 06:17:14 PM »
Inverness is a disaster, the original 7th  was nice drive and pitch  par four.  The eighth was a 225 yard  spirited par three with good bunkering.  A Great loss

Most of the routinig at Oakland Hills is still there but incresingly cluttered bunkering that causes  (nearly) hourglass landing  areas is an eyesore and strategy numbing  affair

John_Cullum

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Atrocious Partial Redesign
« Reply #21 on: February 11, 2009, 06:48:28 PM »
On Ross courses alone, three come immediately to mind:

Inverness (3, 5-6, 8)

Plainfield's three holes across the road (13-15)

Shennecossett



Add a fourth: Savannah Golf Club
"We finally beat Medicare. "

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Atrocious Partial Redesign
« Reply #22 on: February 11, 2009, 06:52:34 PM »
I am so happy that Mr. Ed Homsey chimed in to clarify Mr. Tom Doak's cloudy comments on OPCC and the Park Club.  Our resident expert on Park Club would be Mr. Ian Andrew and if Mr. Tom is involved with OPCC, we'll cede to him.  However, as the energy behind the Walter J. Travis society, Mr. Homsey should be consulted on all things Travis.  He was intimately involved in the late Mr. Bob Labbance's great work on Travis, The Old Man.
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Atrocious Partial Redesign
« Reply #23 on: February 11, 2009, 08:10:00 PM »
Ed:

Thanks for clarifying the history of Orchard Park CC.

I've only been there once, many years ago, when one of my interns was living down the street from it and wanted to show me the new holes.  Bruce Hepner did make an official visit a few years ago when they sought our advice; but, they haven't been a regular client.

Phil_the_Author

Re: Atrocious Partial Redesign
« Reply #24 on: February 11, 2009, 08:13:12 PM »
Ed,

Thanks for the info! It clears up a lot of puzzles and questions.

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