[Dan Herrmann]

Original question - worst partial redesign?

Let's stick with Buffalo, but a muni this time.  Sheridan Park GC was killed so that the Town of Tonawanda could give up land to a developer.  The idea was to generate jobs (which I don't think ever happened).

Holes 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, and 8 were all sacrificed to the bulldozer.  The replacement holes were third-rate.

What had been a wonderful muni (hosted the 1962 USGA Publinx) became an also-ran.

Sheridan Park was a William Harries design, opened in the early 1930's.

[Mike_Cirba]

I have two examples and I'm not sure if they qualify for Best Partial Redesign or Atrocious Partial Redesign...

The first is Bucks County Country Club in Jamison, PA, where the addition of housing to a circa 1961 William and David Gordon design necessitated the creation of 5 new holes, which were done by a fellow named Jeff Broadbelt.   The new holes, even though they occupied some trying pieces of property, were all quite daring architecturally, with one absolutely fabulous long, uphill par three to an amazing green being the highlight.

Although the replacement holes mostly worked well, they only served to highlight how mostly mundane, rote, and unimaginative the original holes were and the course now comes off like a hot, frilly pink negligeee sewn onto a pair of thick women's corduroys.

The second example is Cobb's Creek.   In the mid 1950s, approximately 15-18% of the course was co-opted by the US Army for a Nike Missile Battery.

This forced a re-routing by course officials that managed to use all of the existing original greens in new and generally creative ways given the constraints of the situation.   That today's course is still fairly well-regarded architecturally attests to that.

However, the net effect is that six of the very best original holes were either eliminated or otherwise compromised and a fair, objective assessment is that each was far superior to the holes they were replaced with.

[Kyle Harris]

Geez Mike,

I think the Gordon half of Bucks is head and shoulders above most of the Broadbelt holes. The par 3 and the par 4 immediately after being the only exceptions.

I challenge you to find a routing as good as the Gordon holes for that land, and also as diverse as holes typically play like this for me:

1. Driver/3-wood - Wedge
2. Driver - 3 wood/long iron to reach the BLIND ALMOST ALPS LIKE GREEN in two - or a tricky lay up to a tricky wedge shot.
3. Cut, uphill long iron or fairway wood to a reverse camber dogleg right
4. Neat downhill par 3 that's a mid to short iron and devlish in any sort of wind or long of the green
5. Balls tough uphill dogleg left requiring shot shaped correctly off the tee to a great two tiered green best approached with a low running shot.
6. Longer par 3, nothing really noteworthy but it's still okay
7. Oddly tough par 5 with small pond upfront, difficult pitch shot into this green and the tee shot must be roped to be able to play the hole accordingly. Anything note reaching the hilltop is blind and this fairway really needs to be played from the left side.
8. Another shot shape tee shot, hitting too far or overcooking a draw leads to a ball bounding down hill to an awkward angle.
9. Good drive and short iron hole to a smaller than appears green.

and that's just the front nine. Most of the Broadbelt holes have too much going on, and the 16th holes with its four tiered narrow green is the ultimate in excess.

[Ronald Montesano]

Dan,
Close to home on that one.  The old members at Sheridan still wax on the courses through the sewer tunnel, across the road.  An original layout still hangs in the clubhouse.  I'm shocked that you think that baseball diamonds cannot provide proper substitute golf land.  They're quite flat and uninspiring, after all.

[paul cowley]

.....the re design of the original Seaside nine holes [Colt and Allison] into the new Seaside eighteen holes [Fazio]....at Sea Island Resort.

I have much respect for the Fazio Organization, but losing the original Seaside nine has been hard as I feel it was one of the best nines ever....it definately was for me.

[Mike_Cirba]

Kyle,

At minimum, I think you'd agree that Bucks County is now stripes on plaid.

All,

Thinking more about it, the worst partial redesign ever has to be the abuse of Timber Point where 18 excellent holes were turned into 27 on the same acreage.

[Bob Harris]

Geez Mike,

I think the Gordon half of Bucks is head and shoulders above most of the Broadbelt holes. The par 3 and the par 4 immediately after being the only exceptions.

I challenge you to find a routing as good as the Gordon holes for that land, and also as diverse as holes typically play like this for me:

1. Driver/3-wood - Wedge
2. Driver - 3 wood/long iron to reach the BLIND ALMOST ALPS LIKE GREEN in two - or a tricky lay up to a tricky wedge shot.
3. Cut, uphill long iron or fairway wood to a reverse camber dogleg right
4. Neat downhill par 3 that's a mid to short iron and devlish in any sort of wind or long of the green
5. Balls tough uphill dogleg left requiring shot shaped correctly off the tee to a great two tiered green best approached with a low running shot.
6. Longer par 3, nothing really noteworthy but it's still okay
7. Oddly tough par 5 with small pond upfront, difficult pitch shot into this green and the tee shot must be roped to be able to play the hole accordingly. Anything note reaching the hilltop is blind and this fairway really needs to be played from the left side.
8. Another shot shape tee shot, hitting too far or overcooking a draw leads to a ball bounding down hill to an awkward angle.
9. Good drive and short iron hole to a smaller than appears green.

and that's just the front nine. Most of the Broadbelt holes have too much going on, and the 16th holes with its four tiered narrow green is the ultimate in excess.

Kyle,

I agree with you that the original Gordon holes are far superior to the Broadbelt holes.  The shame of it is that the holes that were replaced especially 15, 16 and 17 were the best holes on the course.  Check out Google Earth with the new historical imagery feature.

Bob

[Joe Hancock]

I googled "Atrocious Partial Redesign", and best I can tell, his career as a French Impressionist painter was in direct competition with Monet. No wonder I never heard of him......

[Mike_Cirba]

Bob/Kyle,

Ya gotta love a site where we're debating course changes at BCCC in the same breath with Inverness, Oak Hill, and Timber Point.

[Eric Pevoto]

Geez Mike,

I think the Gordon half of Bucks is head and shoulders above most of the Broadbelt holes. The par 3 and the par 4 immediately after being the only exceptions.

I challenge you to find a routing as good as the Gordon holes for that land, and also as diverse as holes typically play like this for me:

1. Driver/3-wood - Wedge
2. Driver - 3 wood/long iron to reach the BLIND ALMOST ALPS LIKE GREEN in two - or a tricky lay up to a tricky wedge shot.
3. Cut, uphill long iron or fairway wood to a reverse camber dogleg right
4. Neat downhill par 3 that's a mid to short iron and devlish in any sort of wind or long of the green
5. Balls tough uphill dogleg left requiring shot shaped correctly off the tee to a great two tiered green best approached with a low running shot.
6. Longer par 3, nothing really noteworthy but it's still okay
7. Oddly tough par 5 with small pond upfront, difficult pitch shot into this green and the tee shot must be roped to be able to play the hole accordingly. Anything note reaching the hilltop is blind and this fairway really needs to be played from the left side.
8. Another shot shape tee shot, hitting too far or overcooking a draw leads to a ball bounding down hill to an awkward angle.
9. Good drive and short iron hole to a smaller than appears green.

and that's just the front nine. Most of the Broadbelt holes have too much going on, and the 16th holes with its four tiered narrow green is the ultimate in excess.

Kyle,

I agree with you that the original Gordon holes are far superior to the Broadbelt holes.  The shame of it is that the holes that were replaced especially 15, 16 and 17 were the best holes on the course.  Check out Google Earth with the new historical imagery feature.

Bob

The 17th green of the original course was a sad loss.  To be fair, Jeff Broadbelt inherited a routing set by Toll Bros. 

Pearls on swine. 

[Bob Harris]

Geez Mike,

I think the Gordon half of Bucks is head and shoulders above most of the Broadbelt holes. The par 3 and the par 4 immediately after being the only exceptions.

I challenge you to find a routing as good as the Gordon holes for that land, and also as diverse as holes typically play like this for me:

1. Driver/3-wood - Wedge
2. Driver - 3 wood/long iron to reach the BLIND ALMOST ALPS LIKE GREEN in two - or a tricky lay up to a tricky wedge shot.
3. Cut, uphill long iron or fairway wood to a reverse camber dogleg right
4. Neat downhill par 3 that's a mid to short iron and devlish in any sort of wind or long of the green
5. Balls tough uphill dogleg left requiring shot shaped correctly off the tee to a great two tiered green best approached with a low running shot.
6. Longer par 3, nothing really noteworthy but it's still okay
7. Oddly tough par 5 with small pond upfront, difficult pitch shot into this green and the tee shot must be roped to be able to play the hole accordingly. Anything note reaching the hilltop is blind and this fairway really needs to be played from the left side.
8. Another shot shape tee shot, hitting too far or overcooking a draw leads to a ball bounding down hill to an awkward angle.
9. Good drive and short iron hole to a smaller than appears green.

and that's just the front nine. Most of the Broadbelt holes have too much going on, and the 16th holes with its four tiered narrow green is the ultimate in excess.

Kyle,

I agree with you that the original Gordon holes are far superior to the Broadbelt holes.  The shame of it is that the holes that were replaced especially 15, 16 and 17 were the best holes on the course.  Check out Google Earth with the new historical imagery feature.

Bob

The 17th green of the original course was a sad loss.  To be fair, Jeff Broadbelt inherited a routing set by Toll Bros. 

Pearls on swine. 

I agree, the two best greens on the course were 5 and 17.  The inspiration for a number of the greens was Huntingdon Valley's Noble course.

[Mike_Cirba]

Bob Harris,

I can't type or debate much with a bad hand but would enjoy hearing more about the Noble inspiration.

[Eric Pevoto]

Agreed.  I'd like to hear more about the Noble course.

[Ian Andrew]

Ronald:

I thought the work at Orchard Park was done so that a big spanking new practice range could be constructed adjacent to the clubhouse, where the former 17th and 18th holes were.  I have seen that change made on three or four other courses and every one I've seen has been a disaster.

Clubs which make the range a priority over the golf course deserve to destroy themselves.

That's 100% correct - while the 17th was a decent hole - the 18th was an outstanding one - and a huge loss. The hole can be seen on a video the club has in it's archives.

[Ian Andrew]

Ron & Tom,

"At Orchard Park I gave them a plan for a rearranged fifth hole, one of 565 yards; a reconstructed frist green;

I'm wondering if they ever purchased the "new land" and, if so, what they used it for? How did this effect where the practice facility is today?

They actually followed his advice and built the old 5th into a "Sahara" hole with a bunkered waste area that used to cross the entire hole mid-way. That image is on one of the early aerials at the club.

They did not alter the opening green.

I would bet the old pit was the land mentioned and is where the new holes are located.

[Ronald Montesano]

Well, they've got the antithesis of a Sahara there now...Go out 210 yards with your three iron, turn 90 degrees right, whack a three wood over a cistern (you can recover from water with a water wedge, right?) toward the bunkered and mounded green.  I've tried to attach an overhead shot of the big tank of H2O...The hole at the top is the new 5th and the hole at the bottom of the lake is the new 14th or so.

[Ed Homsey]

Ian--

I'm not about to dispute your observations, given the respect I have for your knowledge.  However, I'm really puzzling over just how Tilly proposed to "rearrange" the 5th hole to make it a 565 yard hole.  In a course layout, drawn from Travis's original maps, identified as "Map of Park Club's New Links", the 5th hole is listed as 540 yards.  A 1958 aerial of the course shows the tee to be just west of the current maintenance road.  Looks to be in about the same location as the current 5th tee.  And, the aerial shows bunkering and mounding right in the middle of the fairway and mid-hole. The green was situated just short of the tee for the old par 3 6th.  So, I wonder how Tilly proposed to add 25 yards to the hole; and, from having read all of the letters he wrote concerning Travis courses he visited, it was apparent that he was on a mission to rid courses of what he called "duffers headaches".  Re Orchard Park, he said, "I gave them a plan for.....the elimination of numerous 'duffers' headache' bunkers (my new name for the superfluous pits that catch only very bad shots of the average golfer."  It's hard to believe that he would have left that middle of the fairway bunkered/mounded waste area on #5.  And, it seems to me that a "rearranged fifth hole" would look quite different from the original.  For me, it is hard to see any evidence that Tilly's recommendations were followed; same with his recommendations for Stafford CC which you know like the back of your hand.

[Cabell Ackerly]

On Ross courses alone, three come immediately to mind:

Inverness (3, 5-6,

Plainfield's three holes across the road (13-15)

Shennecossett

two more Ross's (well one and a half)...

Granville Golf Club  -  I cant remember the exact numbers but there's a 2 or 3 hole stretch on the back side that puts a big black eye on what otherwise is a completely unaltered Ross original. The original holes were lost to a neighboring housing development.

CC of Virginia (Westhampton Course) - a Herbert Barker original redesigned by Ross. Holes 1-3 (built in 2005) are an abomination to what was once a classic, intimate and quirky layout. The new holes were created to make room for a bigger pool, and expand the par from 69 to 70.

[Chris_Blakely]

The Powelton Club, Cornish added several holes when I-84 was widened.  They are less than stellar.

Pelham Country Club - only 6 original Emmet holes left after I-95 came through.

Highland Park GC in Skokie, IL I believe has had numerous architects in there to redo many different holes.

[Eric Morrison]

Brad - other than the obvious point of losing Ross holes, what in your mind makes the Shennecossett redesign atrocious? Were any of the holes lost, other than 11, really good golf holes? The property near the water has been a big draw for the course...just curious...

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