[Anthony Gray]

  At my home course the 8th green (not a typo the eighth green) is next to the clubhouse so you never have the pleasure of sitting and watching players come in.

  I love relaxing on a patio watching players come in. Do you?

  What courses are the best for this? The worst?

  How big of an importance is it in routing a course?


  Anthony



 

[Jeff_Mingay]

Anthony,

I can't say placing the 18th green close to the clubhouse is of big importance with regard to routing. However, I can say that one of my favourite features of many classic links throughout Great Britian -- St. Andrews-Old, Troon, Lytham & St. Annes, Prestwick immediately come to mind -- is in fact the proximity of the home green to the clubhouse (and O.B.!). 

[Carl Nichols]

I think it´s a plus, but shouldn´t override a better routing that wouldn´t finish at the clubhouse.  Two terrific places in the DC area to enjoy a post-round drink *outside* are at Columbia and Chevy Chase, and both overlook the 18th green.

[Eric Smith]

Anthony,

My initial thought was, yes, the 18th needs to be at the clubhouse.  Then I got to thinking that it was only last week when I was walking off of the 18th green at Harbour Town just before sunset and I believe they got that one right - and it's a ways from the clubhouse.

However, the setting at the HT clubhouse is pretty special too, as you get to watch alot of interesting shots played into the really cool 9th green.

[Bill_McBride]

All things being equal, absolutlely.  No long walk when you are finished (a la Crystal Downs or O Club).  It's fun to watch your friends finishing their rounds. 

At the new Pensacola CC course #18 is a great par 3 with an elevated green perched right above the bay.  You can sit on the back balconies with a refreshing beverage and see the play of the entire 165 yard max hole length.

The clubhouse is off to the left and back toward the tee from the green.

[Anthony Gray]

  Eric,

  Your post on the 19th hole thread got me thinking about this. I like the portch at Pinehurst but it is not elevated enough to see the approach. Troon is classic. I think Royal Smith is going to be perfect.

   Anthony

[Jaeger Kovich]

I think its very important. There is a reason its called the HOMEhole. The whole idea of golf as a journey into nature relies on the idea of returning home, similar to baseball with home plate in that respect. Golf originated with 9 holes OUT and 9 holes IN. Tradition also shows the importance of the clubhouse on the 18th green. I've never been to St. Andrew's but I cant picture the course in my mind without seeing the clubhouse behind the 18th green and the valley of sin. We also see the importance in photographs, how often do you see the clubhouse in the shot behind the winner of a tournament after sinking the last putt?

I think the idea of having the clubhouse close to the 18th green, aside from making the walk shorter, adds pleasurable excitement to the game. The added pressure of someone watching always makes things more interesting for player and spectator.

My favorites: winged foot west, queenwood, baltusrol upper

[Andy Ryall]

I think its ideal as long as it does not compromise the quality of the hole.   Riviera is a prime example and Arcadia Bluffs is pretty cool as well.    On the other hand, I wouldn't change Sutton Bay's dramatic 18th despite a 10 minute cart ride back to the clubhouse.   It all depends!

[Greg Chambers]

I think most courses would be best with no clubhouse at all.

[Adrian_Stiff]

I see it as very important in the routing of the golf course, all my courses the 18th is right under neath.

[Adam Jeselnick]

I have been a part of golf course projects where grading around the 18th was re-worked to accomodate a clear line of sight from the clubhouse terrace.  At courses where achieving that view was simply not possible given the routing, clubhouse site, or both, placing a green other than the 18th (usually the 9th) within sight of the clubhouse is a suitable compromise.

If not, what makes tallying your scorecard and enjoying a post-round beverage unique at the golf clubhouse, versus driving to a nearby restaurant or bar?  From a purely financial perspective, the food and beverage operation certainly benefits from the 18th-clubhouse proximity.  There is also the intangible benefit of extending the golf experience by watching other players finish while sharing stories from your round.

In a resort setting, a place like Pebble Beach gets it right by locating the pro shop at the 1st tee, with the Lodge overlooking 18.  Kierland and Half Moon Bay provide a similar approach -- with the added benefit of bagpipes at sunset.  The Home hole at St. Andrew's would be a close second in my book to Pebble.  For the average golfer, a "gallery" environment provides added excitement; for the non-golfing spectactor, this may be their only exposure to the game other than TV. 

Some good stuff here...

[Cristian]

Looking at your friends come in from the clubhouse terrace is fun, but there is a downside; If the clubhouse patio is too close to the 18th green one might loose matches because of distraction from the galleries, or those talking and laughing about other things.

Can we expect golf ettiquette to endure with people outside on the terrace until well after their round or is golf a mental game and putting with terrace distractions just a part of it?

I'm not sure myself, but I'll take a mulligan if I'm distracted off the first tee 

Which widens the discussion; should first tee's also be within sight of the clubhouse?

[Lyne Morrison]

Adam - your post reminded me of the frustration that can come with sitting on a terrace by the 18th and not being able to view the green - due to mounding, a landscape screen, small structure - even a bowling green (lawn bowls). I've even seen situations inside clubs where windows that provide access to a prime view of the course have been blocked off with poker machines.

My feeling is that the club / course interface is very important in the overall experience of a site. Its curious that some appear to not follow this thinking.

Christian - Its true that we need to be mindful of golfers putting out nearby the club, goes with the territory one would think.

Cheers -- Lyne

[Mike_Cirba]

The Old Course does it pretty well,

[Tom_Doak]

Anthony:

It's a cool thing, when it happens.  But I think it's overrated.

Imagine if your client insisted upon it, even if it meant the 18th hole would be markedly inferior.  Happens all the time in our business.

If it were that important, the home holes at Pine Valley and Riviera and Pacific Dunes and Ballyneal, among others, would flunk.

[TEPaul]

I do indeed and one of the neatest 18th greens I've seen is at Misquamicutt. It's actually not that close to the clubhouse (maybe 75 yards) but the thing that makes it so cool to me is there is nothing but short chipping area grass from the clubhouse and all around the practice putting green which is between the 18th green and the clubhouse. That chipping areas grass seems to be everywhere front, left and long.

The 18th is a long uphill par 3 and I'd have to say there is probably more "wrong putting green" relief off that practice putting green than any hole in the world.

I was so enamored with that Misquamicut situation I recommended we do that kind of thing at my club---Gulph Mills. And so they moved our old practice putting green, the first tee, raised that area behind the clubhouse about 8 feet and created a chipping area type lawn behind the clubhouse that melds right into the 18th green on the other side. Our 18th green is very close to the clubhouse. Skull a shot over our 18th by about twenty steps and you will hit the clubhouse.

[James Bennett]

Riviera #18 is visible from parts of the clubhouse, but is quite a way from the clubhouse.  There is a significant uphill walk after the hole is played - a good outcome when the clubhouse occupies an elevated spot.

St Andrews Beach has (had) a fantastic #18 hole, completely invisible from the 'clubhouse'.  In fact, none of the Gunnamatta course is (was) visible from the 'clubhouse'.  A very significant climb back to the clubhouse/carpark after the 18th hole was played.

Several clubs with elevated clubhouses have uphill treks on #18.  Rarely are such holes in the 'better' group for that course.

However, where a clubhouse and the nearby holes work together - well fantastic.  I often wonder whether the clubhouse/18th hole outcome was due to architectural genius, client intranscience or just happenstance.

James B

[Adam Jeselnick]

"Every golfer understands that the overall golf experience doesn't just begin with the first tee shot of the day and end with the final putt on the 18th.  For many, the golf experience begins the minute you drive up to the clubhouse and isn't truly over until the door closes behind you on the way out.  So in a world of first and lasting impressions, the role of the clubhouse and its relationship to the golf course is a critical one."

Can anyone name the author of this quote?

Tom - what if your client insisted on it PRIOR to the initial routing, so that the course design and clubhouse site are simultaneous considerations, rather than making the clubhouse site an afterthought?

Christian - etiquette should prevail, however I believe it is possible to put the 18th green in view of the clubhouse, but out of earshot from typical conversation.  A change in elevation from the green to the terrace can both improve visibility and reduce the noise impact.

Lyne - thanks for your comments.  I would suggest that if the site and proposed routing does not appear to accomodate a reasonable clubhouse site... well, then, perhaps more creativity is required.  

-AJ

[Tom Jefferson]

Anthony;

The home hole at Bandon Trails...fantastic...........before your remodel!!!!

Just kidding,

Tom

[Kalen Braley]

Anthony:

It's a cool thing, when it happens.  But I think it's overrated.

Imagine if your client insisted upon it, even if it meant the 18th hole would be markedly inferior.  Happens all the time in our business.

If it were that important, the home holes at Pine Valley and Riviera and Pacific Dunes and Ballyneal, among others, would flunk.

Tom,

Interesting you mention Pac Dunes.  I always thought that little patio in front of the grill was a great spot to watch folks coming up the 18th hole while you were enjoying a bite and a beer.  I guess now that they have a new clubhouse closer to the back tee on 1 its not quite the same.  I haven't been there in a few years now, but is that little area still there or was it removed?

Kalen

[Damon Groves]

Anthony:

It's a cool thing, when it happens.  But I think it's overrated.

Imagine if your client insisted upon it, even if it meant the 18th hole would be markedly inferior.  Happens all the time in our business.

If it were that important, the home holes at Pine Valley and Riviera and Pacific Dunes and Ballyneal, among others, would flunk.

I concur completely and at times would love to see a course like they have in Scotland with just a shack for the clubhouse. How cool is that? I like the understated quality of the facilities at Ballyneal and Pacific (the old clubhouse) and look forward to seeing what the new clubhouse at Pacific does feel wise. I will be there in May.

[Pete Wendt]

I'll take the 18th green close to the clubhouse, but please move the first tee off the patio!!  Who doesn't love playing Pinehurst #2 with a big group and congregating around the Clubhouse as everyone makes their way up the 18th. 

I don't mind people seeing my last shot of the day, but that first tee shot at Belair makes you reach for the box of Depends.  (Maybe one of the best first tees in golf with a huge gallery to boot.)

[Rob Rigg]

I feel strongly that courses should be built for walking so it makes sense to have the 18th near the clubhouse so you don't have to hike 1/2 a mile in - a la Tetherow.

It is nice to be able to watch people play in but I would agree that it should not compromise the routing or force the architect to avoid using "cool" features on the final hole just so people have something to look at after the round.

There are a couple of courses in the UK where you feel like you are hitting into the 19th hole - that is a bit too close . . . 

[Michael Warren]

I don't think that it is necessary for the 18th hole to finish next to the club house, but I do enjoy watching people play while I sit and eat lunch.  Whether its the 18th or any other hole.  It is a lot of fun to watch people play holes where they have to hit over water.

The golf club at Terra Lago (formally Landmark) is especially good for this.  The club house looks over a par three with an island green.  Its a lot of fun to watch people play this hole.   

[Ed Oden]

I love ending the day in a comfortable chair with a cold beer overlooking the course.  All the better if it is outside.  But it doesn't really matter to me whether the view is of the 18th hole or some other hole as long as the setting is serene and I can still connect with the course.  While I can see how the 18th would be preferable in tournament play, for me those are rare instances.  For some reason, many of the best settings I have experienced have been overlooking he 9th hole and not the 18th. 

I haven't been there since the clubhouse was completed.   But based on the under construction clubhouse I saw, I can only assume that Friars Head is a great place to watch people come up the 18th hole.  The clubhouse is literally a few steps beyond the green.

Ed

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