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Patrick_Mucci

NGLA - Golf's enchanted journey
« on: February 04, 2009, 09:16:18 PM »
Taking Bradley Anderson's suggestion, I thought I'd write a hole by hole description of my general play of NGLA, paying no attention to a specific round

A number of factors determine your fate and the day's play.
Wind direction, Wind velocity, temperature, moisture in the air, ground conditions, green speed and HOLE locations.  Yardages will be provided from the red and green tees.

NGLA's practice range and green could best be described as spartan.
One usually spends some time on the range, but, not an inordinate amount of time.  The same could be said of the small practice putting green that was enlarged a few years ago.

The first hole, "Valley" is a short, 327/307 yard par 4, down hill that plays from west to east.

As you exit the proshop or practice putting green you have to ascend wooden steps leading to the highly elevated 1st tee.

The views from that tee are inspirational.
The golf course lies in front of you, as does the massive clubhouse.
The 18th green, surrounds and approah along with Sebonic Bay in the distance lie to the north providing a splending view of land and sea.   And, that magnificent, huge flag pole that sits to the right of the 18th fairway, with its majestic American flag is quite a site.
Behind you, is a fascinating coastline and the Bay.  On a clear day it's alleged that you can see New York to the west.

The visual on the tee is interesting, a shouldered rough hides an intricate bunker complex that parallels the left side of the hole just out of view.

Portions of the fairway, a ribbon like feature, are visible, as is a yawning right side bunker just 54 yards from the center of the green.  The green is also visible, although its unique contouring isn't yet apparent.

The hidden nature of the left side of the fairway and left of the fairway with the punitive bunker complex, lull many golfers into a false sense of security.

Further left, but still in the golfers range, lies a fountain, lawn, hedges and parking lot, all of which are in play.

I've seen golfers hit 5 irons, 3-irons 1 irons, 3-woods and drivers off the 1st tee.

All have their own way of starting the hole.

The safer one plays his tee shot, the more cumbersome or blind the approach shot.

The fairway is undulating.

Drives to the right, with the shorter carry are almost always blind into the green.

Heroic drives left, with the longer, more dangerous carry, are faced with a clear view of the green.

The green has to be one of the greatest greens in golf and certainly in the top 5 amongst 1st hole greens.

There are numerous bowls and plateaus.
An elevated spine runs down the center of the green with bowls feeding off it left and right.  The old back left bowl, which was next to impossible to stay in, has been softened/removed.

It's fun to stand on the 2nd tee and watch the approaches into that green.

The green is flanked with deep bunkers to the left and rear and shallower bunkers to the right.

The green is elevated above the fairway, but, as part of a seemless inclined plane extending from the fairway, as opposed to a sharp seperate structure/foot pad.

Those hitting their ball to the right are left with a relatively short shot of between 108 and 54 yards.  But, the shot is blind, as the back of the right side bunker rises up to obscure any view of the green from the lower fairway.

I've always opted to take my driver off the tee.
I aim at the right side bunker which begins 54 yards from the center green.
If I draw my tee shot, my prefered flight, I'm going to be on the front of the green or just short of the green, with anywhere from 54 to 10 yards from the center of the green.

If my drive is hit to the center or left center I have an interesting dilema.

I can now choose any one of my 14 clubs to play my next shot, depending upon the hole location.  That's really a neat feature at NGLA.  I can literally hit any of my 14 clubs to get to the hole.

If the hole is on the spine/plateaus, wedges with spin are almost useless.
If the hole is in one of the bowls, pick your poison.
With the front of the green having a pronounced slope, hit it too gently and the ball will come back at you and probably end up further down the slope.
Hit it too hard, and now you face a putt, wedge or chip to a green that runs away from you.

If I drive into the bunker, I'll hit my sand wedge.  If I drive right of the bunker, I'll hit my sand wedge.  Since the right side bunker is on the upslope leading to the green, to reach it, all carry is usually needed.
Thus, it takes a carry of approximately 277/257 yards to reach the bunker.
While it's slightly downhill, the wind and moisture in the air can make it play longer.

At 327/307 the hole produces many bogies, double bogies and worse.
It can ruin your day before you've barely gotten started.
A bad score can cause the golfer to take irrational risks on the first few holes resulting in a disastrous round.

I've seen golfers drive the green, only to score a 7.

The green is insidious with its spine, bowls and plateaus.

When the greens are at pace, 9 and higher, this green is frightening.

Three putts are common.

Approaches missing the green can be left with incredibly difficult recoveries depending upon the hole location.

As with many of the greens at NGLA, they slope into adjacent bunkers, the rough or back into the fairway.  Hence, shots hit to the perimeter often meet a dire fate, as do marginally hit shots.

My goal when playing the hole is to be lucky enough to make par.
If I birdie the hole, that's an unexpected bonus.
My main thought is, DON'T take a big number.  Don't throw away the round before you get into it.

Other than my drive, I play the hole very, very defensively.

The hole offers great variety, in club selection, line of play and method of play.

If you go to Google Earth, it will give you some idea of the configuration of the hole and it's features.

Could someone please post the aerial and I'll incorporate it in my initial post.

Thanks

Let the questions begin.

TEPaul

Re: NGLA - Golf's enchanted journey
« Reply #1 on: February 04, 2009, 09:42:17 PM »
Patrick:

I haven't even read your first post yet but God only knows you've both started more threads and had more to say about NGLA than anyone else on this website by a mile but you can definitely have this pulpit about the hole by hole intracacies and nuances of NGLA, in my book; particularly after that remarkable qualifying round you shot when you were physically laid low. I still had a lot of confidence and pride in my game back then and I know I sure didn't beat you on that course on that day!

That still kinda pisses me off but I'll learn to live with it someday and somehow! ;)

Charlie Goerges

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Re: NGLA - Golf's enchanted journey
« Reply #2 on: February 04, 2009, 09:46:32 PM »
Hole 1







(Patrick, if different view or smaller images would be better, let me know. I've been gradually pulling together "bird's eye view" images of various courses and NGLA is one of them.)
« Last Edit: February 05, 2009, 12:37:37 AM by Charlie Goerges »
Severally on the occasion of everything that thou doest, pause and ask thyself, if death is a dreadful thing because it deprives thee of this. - Marcus Aurelius

ChipRoyce

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Re: NGLA - Golf's enchanted journey
« Reply #3 on: February 04, 2009, 10:02:21 PM »
What's the carry over the bunker on the left?
(Understand that the picture doesn't take the undulations of the ground into account)

There seems to be the opportunity to bomb it down the left and  leave a lob wedge out of the rough.

Bill_McBride

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Re: NGLA - Golf's enchanted journey
« Reply #4 on: February 04, 2009, 10:16:50 PM »
It's interesting how little the aerial tells you about the incredible contours of this hole, starting way down the fairway.

The rough in this aerial doesn't look anything like as penal as the stuff I was in my first go at NGLA #1 when I pushed my tee shot out to the right, 50 yards short of the fairway bunker and 120 yards to the center of the green.

I was very happy to make a 6.  What a brutal starting hole.  In the afternoon round I was on in 2, happy to make a 5.

 :P

Tough hole for 307 yards.

Ed Oden

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Re: NGLA - Golf's enchanted journey
« Reply #5 on: February 04, 2009, 10:49:56 PM »
Patrick, I can't imagine a better opening hole.  I love everything about it.  Don't you think the green is what really makes it all work?  Its got to be one of the best anywhere.  Interesting to hear that you hit driver off the tee.  In a crazy way, is that almost the "safe" play since the approach from the lay up area is no bargain?

The 18th green, surrounds and approah along with Sebonic Bay in the distance lie to the north providing a splending view of land and sea.   And, that magnificent, huge flag pole that sits to the right of the 18th fairway, with its majestic American flag is quite a site.
Behind you, is a fascinating coastline and the Bay.



An elevated spine runs down the center of the green with bowls feeding off it left and right.  The old back left bowl, which was next to impossible to stay in, has been softened/removed.

Here is picture of the 1st green from the 17th tee showing the spine and a pin position in the back left bowl:



How was this portion of the green "softened"?

Thanks for this thread!

Ed

TEPaul

Re: NGLA - Golf's enchanted journey
« Reply #6 on: February 04, 2009, 11:31:30 PM »
CharlieG:

That low aerial photo you offered above is amazing to me. I hardly recognized the hole and that perspective makes it appear almost grotesque and not even remotely identifiable compared to what the golfer sees at this eye's view.

The various forms and perspectives of photography of golf holes are certainly interesting and different.



"What's the carry over the bunker on the left?
(Understand that the picture doesn't take the undulations of the ground into account)
There seems to be the opportunity to bomb it down the left and  leave a lob wedge out of the rough."

ChipRoyce:

I really don't know what the carry distance is over those bunkers on the left. Standing on the tee, the deal is you can't see anything in that area---the bunkers, the fairway etc. All you can see (at least from the back) is the fairway when it starts to rise near that right bunker.

I guess I've hit that tee shot a hundred times in somewhat recent years and I never used anything except a 2 iron. I think it's a wonderful 2 iron tee shot because the wind is generally coming right to left and it seems almost impossible (at least to me) to aim too far right. And for some reason it's also a tee shot that I just want to hit a big swinging draw. But on NGLA's #1 you are not going to see your tee shot if you hit an iron until you get down there!

I've only been in those bunkers once and early on in my years after getting back there and I sure didn't miss that 2 iron; I thought it was perfect but when I got down there it was in one of those bunkers. After that my last thought was always to just remember to aim farther right than seems apparent and after that it always worked out fine with just some wedge to the green from the base of the fairway.

I guess I'm unusual because all the rest including most all the bigger hitters just tee it up with drivers and take their chances at the green. That play never seemed right to me---eg maybe something slim to gain but a lot to lose!  ;)

This hole for the good and long player just may be the closest thing I know to Riviera's 10th from the tee as the biggest "tease" strategically on a tee shot! The holes are of about similar length but they could hardly be more different looking or more different in their architectural arrangment. Matter of fact, NGLA's #1 just might be the most unusual opening hole I've ever known!
 
 
« Last Edit: February 05, 2009, 12:12:27 AM by TEPaul »

Peter Pallotta

Re: NGLA - Golf's enchanted journey
« Reply #7 on: February 04, 2009, 11:45:01 PM »
A real good day on gca.com - TE riffing on Pine Tree in the 50s, and now Patrick on his beloved NGLA. I wish I had a "wild applause" emoticon - big head, little arms and tiny hands clapping wildly.

Patrick - thanks for this. A question: the first seems a prime example of a golf hole that offers the much-vaunted "scoring spectrum", i.e. anything from a birdie to a triple is possible.  With its relatively short length, it reminded me of the 1st at Garden City -- but I don't remember anyone mentioning that hole having such a wide scoring spectrum. I know you love the hole, and to me too it seems terrific, but in geneal -- do you think it's a good thing for a FIRST hole to have such a wide scoring spectrum?

Thanks
Peter

John Mayhugh

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Re: NGLA - Golf's enchanted journey
« Reply #8 on: February 04, 2009, 11:46:29 PM »
Great title for an even better topic.  The first hole has to be my favorite starting hole anywhere, with a wonderful green that plays so much smaller than its size.  

As Bill McBride noted, the aerial view doesn't do the contours of the hole justice. In general, this hole is an outstanding example of how different the perspective can be from the ground.  

From the tee it's hard to feel confident about what club to hit and the line to commit to.  I can see how there are all sorts of approaches people might take off the tee, but clearly the tee shot is the only place you can be aggressive.  I didn't have any range time before starting and was thrilled to avoid the deep rough.  Actually, fear of hitting the clubhouse also briefly crossed my mind.  For me, the bunker on the right was great to have as an aiming point, but it's also pretty intimidating.


Here's a look at the hole from the left rough as you walk down from the tee.


A look as you near the fairway.  You can see some of the contours that Bill mentioned.  Here on the left side the green is barely visible.  It gets much worse from the right.


I hope never to visit this back left bunker again.


You can see a bit more of the green contouring here.


Finally, one artsy image from the left side.


Is it too early to nominate a favorite thread of 2009?

K. Krahenbuhl

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Re: NGLA - Golf's enchanted journey
« Reply #9 on: February 04, 2009, 11:47:12 PM »
It's fun to stand on the 2nd tee and watch the approaches into that green.

This could be said about a lot of the holes out there.  I don't think there is any other course that I have played where I would have more fun just walking around and watching players hit shots.  It is a fantastic achievement of the design, as well as the maintenance, that you would be out there a very long time before you would see the same shot with the same result twice.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2009, 11:49:27 PM by Kyle Krahenbuhl »

Charlie Goerges

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Re: NGLA - Golf's enchanted journey
« Reply #10 on: February 04, 2009, 11:54:43 PM »
Nice images John M.

TEP, The image is a bit ugly, especially because it appears to have been taken in very early spring before the leaves have appeared, and before the grass has really "woken up". I chose it for 2 reasons. First, it is the highest res image I can currently find. Second, I do like the fact that it is not straight down. While it can't give an idea of the ground contours, it does place the hole in the context of the landmarks of the course, including the clubhouse, windmill, and the giant flagpole (when we get to those holes).
Severally on the occasion of everything that thou doest, pause and ask thyself, if death is a dreadful thing because it deprives thee of this. - Marcus Aurelius

Bob_Huntley

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Re: NGLA - Golf's enchanted journey
« Reply #11 on: February 04, 2009, 11:55:22 PM »
Pat,

Back in 1976 I was the guest of the Magowans in Southampton for the weekend and played National in the morning and Shinnecock in the afternoon. I loved the National ,but thinking that Shinnecock was the more muscular course, had always in my mind thought it the ultimate test.

Now, whilst on the back nine of life with few holes left to play, I must go back to your pet. I have had several chances to play the National of recent years but some obstacle has arisen to prevent me doing so. I will do it soon.

Thank you for reminding me of its pleasures.

Bob

John Mayhugh

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Re: NGLA - Golf's enchanted journey
« Reply #12 on: February 05, 2009, 12:01:13 AM »
Nice images John M.

TEP, The image is a bit ugly, especially because it appears to have been taken in very early spring before the leaves have appeared, and before the grass has really "woken up". I chose it for 2 reasons. First, it is the highest res image I can currently find. Second, I do like the fact that it is not straight down. While it can't give an idea of the ground contours, it does place the hole in the context of the landmarks of the course, including the clubhouse, windmill, and the giant flagpole (when we get to those holes).


The overhead view is excellent for putting the features of the hole in context.  I really appreciate seeing aerials.  Photos from the ground aren't very good at communicating depth so for those who have yet to see the promised land, it's a great enhancement to any discussion. 

Bob, when you make it back out there, if you need anyone to walk around and take pictures, I gladly accept Southsides as payment! 

TEPaul

Re: NGLA - Golf's enchanted journey
« Reply #13 on: February 05, 2009, 12:19:03 AM »
Pat:

I just described my thoughts on the tee shot on #1 but next comes the approach. For me it was always some kind of a wedge after a 2 iron tee shot which got me into the middle and base of that fairway so many times I feel proud about it now.

From there I could never see the green surface and it seems like I basically always used a sort of mid-left branch on a tree behind that green as my approach aim-point and that was always reliable for me.

Guess what? That tree is gone now and there's nothing up there to aim at. How cool is that!!  ;)

Rich Goodale

Re: NGLA - Golf's enchanted journey
« Reply #14 on: February 05, 2009, 12:24:04 AM »
Great thoughts, Pat.  Keep them coming!

In my one and only bite at the cherry, I asked my caddy if I should hit driver or 1-iron in the obvious left-hand side direction.  He said driver, I felt ubermenschish and proceded to melt the blade on the proper line, only to find it sitting in one of those insidious bunkers.  Still full of hubris I asked for a 9-iron and fatted it halfway to the green.  After raking the bunker, my caddy asked me what clubs I wanted (he was double looping and wanted to get away from me ASAP, I think).  I said that the 9-iron would do, chipped it stiff from 40 yards, and he was my butt boy for the rest of the day.

Love that hole, and will make a mental note to hit driver next time I play.

TEPaul

Re: NGLA - Golf's enchanted journey
« Reply #15 on: February 05, 2009, 12:37:51 AM »
Roberto Huntley:

The Magowans, huh?! Wow, I went to school with some of those boys and Mr Magowan's daughter's coming out party was in Southampton on the Friday back in 1963 before that fantastic but fateful Fernanda Wanamaker Wetherill coming out party the next night that landed us rich "good-for-nothings" on the cover of LIFE magazine and in the national media and then in court and again in the national media a year or so later.

For you guys who've never heard of BobH's friends and NGLA hosts, the Magowans, well Mr Magowan was a tough up and coming guy who married into the Merrill family (of Merrill Lynch). As the story goes Mr. Merrill gave the new bride-groom (Mr. Magowan) a little item in Merrill Lynch's porfolio called SAFEWAY STORES and the rest became history!
« Last Edit: February 05, 2009, 12:39:57 AM by TEPaul »

TEPaul

Re: NGLA - Golf's enchanted journey
« Reply #16 on: February 05, 2009, 12:46:13 AM »
"He said driver, I felt ubermenschish"

Richard The Intelligent:

That remark is just so, so, sooo, YOU. Nevertheless, pal, if you are going to talk to and commune with your caddie try to do it in some lexicon he can understand! Try to remember that most of the time your caddie does not have the brain horse-POWER,,,, I do!  ;)
« Last Edit: February 05, 2009, 12:51:33 AM by TEPaul »

Bradley Anderson

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Re: NGLA - Golf's enchanted journey
« Reply #17 on: February 05, 2009, 02:52:17 AM »
Patrick,

I'm at the GCSAA show in New Orleans, and I just got in from a long day of networking (we had a great GCA dinner in the Quarter tonight) and I'll be going all day tomorrow and Saturday.

I probably won't be able to really digest this till Sunday. I can't wait.


Sean_A

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Re: NGLA - Golf's enchanted journey
« Reply #18 on: February 05, 2009, 06:58:23 AM »
Major kudos to Pat and all the folks who are willing to post photos.  I have never had such a good look at the course before and I looking forward to the remainder of the course. 

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Mike Sweeney

Re: NGLA - Golf's enchanted journey
« Reply #19 on: February 05, 2009, 08:06:25 AM »


I guess I'm unusual because all the rest including most all the bigger hitters just tee it up with drivers and take their chances at the green. That play never seemed right to me---eg maybe something slim to gain but a lot to lose!  ;)


I did not see it mentioned, but driver brings the parking lot and driveway into the mix.

Adam Clayman

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Re: NGLA - Golf's enchanted journey
« Reply #20 on: February 05, 2009, 08:28:58 AM »
For those that doubt ...
A quick googly search intimates what TePaul was saying happened. Now to find the photo...

Quote
Grand Jury investigates wild party that wrecked Southampton mansion, Fernanda Wetherill (See also September 20, 1963).
Taken from a site selling old
'Life' covers.
2neat something or other . com

Maybe this one?..

« Last Edit: February 05, 2009, 08:32:23 AM by Adam Clayman »
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

JMorgan

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Re: NGLA - Golf's enchanted journey
« Reply #21 on: February 05, 2009, 08:54:21 AM »
Great stuff! 

Pat, do one for Garden City, too.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: NGLA - Golf's enchanted journey
« Reply #22 on: February 05, 2009, 08:58:35 AM »
Rich Goodale,

I forgot one of the most important elements in my decision making process from the tee.

My primary goal with my driver is to reach the upslope to the green.

I'm wary of the lies a shorter tee shot can produce.
The fairway is like a roller coaster twisting in the wind.
You can have downhill lies, sidehill away from you lies and sidehill toward you lies, all of which are very uncomfortable and confidence shattering when you're approaching that particular green.

I want the uphill lie, hence, my club of choice off the tee is driver.
I can always choke it up and hit it fairly straight if I'm afraid of going too far.

The distance to carry the last bunker on the left is 230 or more.
The left side bunkers are very penal and are to be avoided at all costs.

TEPaul,

That tree served me well for many years.
It's departure will add more intrique to the approach.

Mike Sweeney.

It's true that a driver will bring the lawn and parking lot into play.
However, I feel that today's equipment produces straighter drives, reducing the propensity to hit it left.

My intent is to drive it at the left corner of the right side bunker with a draw, leaving me a very short distance to the green.

For whatever the reason, that strategy has worked very well for me over the years.

If I was fortunate enough to execute the shot as planned, I could putt, chip, pitch or wedge the approach shot, depending upon the hole location.  You can literally use any club in the bag from just in front of the green.

The more one lays back, the more they're subjected to the roller coaster nature of the fairway and a blind shot.

The key on the second shot is to not let it "get away" from you.
Control is key, that's why I prefer an approach of 60 to 5 yards, especially if my visibility is unencumbered.

The photo of the back left portion of the green seems to have been taken after that deep bowl was filled in.

That hole location was diabolical.
If you flew your approach to that bowl, it wouldn't hold and you'd be over the green.
If you played short of that bowl, you had to putt over the spine or through other bowls, usually resulting in a three putt or more.  Recovering from the right side of the green to that bowl was almost impossible.
The only person I know who seemed to be able to regularly reach and stay in that bowl was TEPaul.  I still don't know how he did it.  It was an incredibly intimidating hole location.

The neat thing about that green is that there are dozens of intimidating hole locations.

Another item worth mentioning is that this hole is probably one of the least affected by the wind due to the descending nature of the hole into a valley.

Peter Palotta,

I also love the first hole at GCGC.

I don't think the scoring spectrum is quite as wide, but, the right side bunkering, knee to waist deep fescue rough, deep bunkers and nearby road can produce a wide scoring spectrum.

I think this ONLY works as a first hole IF the first hole is very short, which # 1 at GCGC and NGLA are.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2009, 09:06:44 AM by Patrick_Mucci »

Gene Greco

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Re: NGLA - Golf's enchanted journey
« Reply #23 on: February 05, 2009, 09:22:34 AM »
   If one looks at the photo taken from above the hole which is at the top of this thread you will note grass within the circular drive in front of the clubhouse. (It has a fountain within its bounds).

This area is actually in play and is maintained as such!

It is firm and mown very tight like the rest of the fairways at NGLA and comes into play with a hooked tee ball hit into a southerly wind.

"...I don't believe it is impossible to build a modern course as good as Pine Valley.  To me, Sand Hills is just as good as Pine Valley..."    TOM DOAK  November 6th, 2010

Bill_McBride

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Re: NGLA - Golf's enchanted journey
« Reply #24 on: February 05, 2009, 09:24:45 AM »
Pat, just a suggestion:  this is a great description of a course you know well, describe well, and there will be quite a few supporting photos posted as there have already been.  It would be a good idea to do a separate thread for each hole, and perhaps those could eventually be combined into an "In My Opinion" essay here on the site.  This is good stuff, thanks.

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