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PThomas

  • Karma: +0/-0
work at Bel-Air?
« on: February 02, 2009, 08:03:11 PM »
just read in the Nov 08 GD that Thomas's "many, jagged [bunker] edges, once lost, are being restored"

can anyone verify this?
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David Stamm

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: work at Bel-Air?
« Reply #1 on: February 02, 2009, 08:27:20 PM »
Paul, Fazio has been their consultant from what I've been told for some time. (In fact, I think he's a member). Geoff S mentioned a while ago that the super had been doing some in house sympathetic bunker resto, but I don't know the progress.
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Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: work at Bel-Air?
« Reply #2 on: February 02, 2009, 10:01:19 PM »
I do believe that Fazio and Mr. Marzolf (associate of the firm) have been working there. Tom Marzolf will be in New Orleans at the Golf Industry Show, so I will ask him.
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Jon Spaulding

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: work at Bel-Air?
« Reply #3 on: February 03, 2009, 02:01:33 PM »
Going out on a limb here, and saying that Billy or George would NOT call this sympathetic.....

Let's all pray for the day that Fabio is no longer there and the club decides to move in a proper direction.





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Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: work at Bel-Air?
« Reply #4 on: February 03, 2009, 02:33:58 PM »
What holes are those?

Granted, it's been a long time since I was there, but I am pretty amazed that I don't even recognize the holes anymore.
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Jon Spaulding

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: work at Bel-Air?
« Reply #5 on: February 03, 2009, 02:40:26 PM »
Quote from: Tom_Doak on February 03, 2009, 02:33:58 PM
What holes are those?

Granted, it's been a long time since I was there, but I am pretty amazed that I don't even recognize the holes anymore.

#1 approach
#3 from bottom of hill (lake replaced classic bunker)
#12 approach (now the ______ hole - insert name of favorite movie star with no boobs)

There's plenty more, but I don't want to induce mass-nausea here. Note that the creek on 1 and 12 is a recirculating water feature......
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Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: work at Bel-Air?
« Reply #6 on: February 03, 2009, 02:50:01 PM »
Quote from: Jon Spaulding on February 03, 2009, 02:40:26 PM
Quote from: Tom_Doak on February 03, 2009, 02:33:58 PM
What holes are those?

Granted, it's been a long time since I was there, but I am pretty amazed that I don't even recognize the holes anymore.

#1 approach
#3 from bottom of hill (lake replaced classic bunker)
#12 approach (now the ______ hole - insert name of favorite movie star with no boobs)

There's plenty more, but I don't want to induce mass-nausea here. Note that the creek on 1 and 12 is a recirculating water feature......

Is 12 now the Keira Knightley hole?
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John Moore II

Re: work at Bel-Air?
« Reply #7 on: February 03, 2009, 03:00:10 PM »
Quote from: Kalen Braley on February 03, 2009, 02:50:01 PM
Quote from: Jon Spaulding on February 03, 2009, 02:40:26 PM
Quote from: Tom_Doak on February 03, 2009, 02:33:58 PM
What holes are those?

Granted, it's been a long time since I was there, but I am pretty amazed that I don't even recognize the holes anymore.

#1 approach
#3 from bottom of hill (lake replaced classic bunker)
#12 approach (now the ______ hole - insert name of favorite movie star with no boobs)

There's plenty more, but I don't want to induce mass-nausea here. Note that the creek on 1 and 12 is a recirculating water feature......

Is 12 now the Keira Knightley hole?

I'd give her the business.  ;D
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K. Krahenbuhl

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: work at Bel-Air?
« Reply #8 on: February 03, 2009, 03:01:42 PM »
Quote from: Kalen Braley on February 03, 2009, 02:50:01 PM
Quote from: Jon Spaulding on February 03, 2009, 02:40:26 PM
Quote from: Tom_Doak on February 03, 2009, 02:33:58 PM
What holes are those?

Granted, it's been a long time since I was there, but I am pretty amazed that I don't even recognize the holes anymore.

#1 approach
#3 from bottom of hill (lake replaced classic bunker)
#12 approach (now the ______ hole - insert name of favorite movie star with no boobs)

There's plenty more, but I don't want to induce mass-nausea here. Note that the creek on 1 and 12 is a recirculating water feature......

Is 12 now the Keira Knightley hole?

That's one I'd be groveling for a chance to play.
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Jon Spaulding

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: work at Bel-Air?
« Reply #9 on: February 03, 2009, 04:02:29 PM »
Quote from: Kalen Braley on February 03, 2009, 02:50:01 PM
Quote from: Jon Spaulding on February 03, 2009, 02:40:26 PM
Quote from: Tom_Doak on February 03, 2009, 02:33:58 PM
What holes are those?

Granted, it's been a long time since I was there, but I am pretty amazed that I don't even recognize the holes anymore.

#1 approach
#3 from bottom of hill (lake replaced classic bunker)
#12 approach (now the ______ hole - insert name of favorite movie star with no boobs)

There's plenty more, but I don't want to induce mass-nausea here. Note that the creek on 1 and 12 is a recirculating water feature......

Is 12 now the Keira Knightley hole?

A good start. I was thinking Katie Holmes because Maverick is a member. If they were to re-enact the volleyball game from TG, and let Val Kilmer in, I might take back all the negative things I've ever said about the disfigured golf course.
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Jon Spaulding

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: work at Bel-Air?
« Reply #10 on: February 03, 2009, 04:07:26 PM »
I would also like to see a re-enactment of the scene, with a GCA twist, where one of this site's luminaries dresses up as Iceman, gets in Fabio's face and says, "you're dangerous"...to which he says, "that's right, I am dangerous".
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Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: work at Bel-Air?
« Reply #11 on: February 03, 2009, 04:36:49 PM »

 :o :o

I heard it was awful but had no idea.........
« Last Edit: February 03, 2009, 04:45:52 PM by Bill_McBride »
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Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: work at Bel-Air?
« Reply #12 on: February 03, 2009, 04:44:14 PM »
Well there is always Hillary Swank, she's a helluva actress and did a good job "disfiguring" herself in Boys Don't Cry and Million Dollar Baby!!  ;D
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Sean Leary

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: work at Bel-Air?
« Reply #13 on: February 03, 2009, 04:45:22 PM »
Jon,

Do you have any "before" pics or, even better, original pics?
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Jon Spaulding

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: work at Bel-Air?
« Reply #14 on: February 03, 2009, 07:14:35 PM »
Quote from: Sean Leary on February 03, 2009, 04:45:22 PM
Jon,

Do you have any "before" pics or, even better, original pics?

No before pics, and very light on original items in the CPU.  Couple of resources that do.....

- the Emporer
- Captain book
- historicaerials.com (furthest back they go is 1952, but much of the good stuff is still there, including rackage on #12 and the bunker on #3)
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Damon Groves

Re: work at Bel-Air?
« Reply #15 on: February 07, 2009, 11:51:47 PM »
Does anyone know if there is true restoration work going on at Bel Air? Are the bunkers being put back into true Bell/Thomas style? Is the center fairway bunker on number 2 being returned? Restoration of the creek and orginal tee on number 9? The left mound being returned to the number 12 Mae West hole? The unnaturel ponds and creeks that were added later being removed?

I have not played the course myself but from Geoff Shac's "The Captain" it seems as if the course was changed significantly for the worse.
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David Stamm

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: work at Bel-Air?
« Reply #16 on: February 08, 2009, 12:37:56 AM »
Damon, none of the things you mentioned have been brought back. And as long as Fazio is on retainer, it never will.
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Jon Spaulding

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: work at Bel-Air?
« Reply #17 on: February 08, 2009, 11:11:48 AM »
Quote from: Damon Groves on February 07, 2009, 11:51:47 PM
Does anyone know if there is true restoration work going on at Bel Air? Are the bunkers being put back into true Bell/Thomas style? Is the center fairway bunker on number 2 being returned? Restoration of the creek and orginal tee on number 9? The left mound being returned to the number 12 Mae West hole? The unnaturel ponds and creeks that were added later being removed?

I have not played the course myself but from Geoff Shac's "The Captain" it seems as if the course was changed significantly for the worse.

Damon, this is one of the greatest messes/abortions in history as alluded to by GS in his book. To top it off, the club is still moving rapidly in the wrong direction. As mentioned by the head pro, Fazio is judge, jury, executioner on all GCA changes; the members must be OK with this. Very depressing, and with that, a photo of the approach to #8.....


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Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: work at Bel-Air?
« Reply #18 on: February 08, 2009, 11:53:21 AM »
In fairness, it should be mentioned that Tom Fazio didn't do this alone.  The club had already made a lot of changes prior to the first time I saw the course, in 1980 ... both George Fazio and Robert Trent Jones Jr. had done work that I know of, and maybe others as well.  An old member there told me all about it ... he was disgusted with the whole thing.

He would probably be glad he's not around to see these photos.
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PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: work at Bel-Air?
« Reply #19 on: February 08, 2009, 12:10:29 PM »
Those lakes are pretty awful.
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H.P.S.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: work at Bel-Air?
« Reply #20 on: February 08, 2009, 12:16:20 PM »
Actually, I don't think the lakes are awful.  I'd like them on another course ... at least they're not those big ponds between two holes like so many modern courses have.

But this is BEL AIR ... one of George Thomas' two or three best works.  In that context, they're a crime.

Also, for those not familiar, that par-5 eighth hole plays up and over a hill and back down to the green ... so the stream that feeds that pond must start right on top of the hill.  :p
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PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: work at Bel-Air?
« Reply #21 on: February 08, 2009, 02:47:47 PM »
I think both of the holes (with pictures on this thread) with the water look alot alike, but both not all that great. The first one (the second overall picture) I can't stop imagining a huge deep bunker in front of the green instead of the swampy hole there instead. Maybe it's a protected tar pit???   ;D ;)
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H.P.S.

Jon Spaulding

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: work at Bel-Air?
« Reply #22 on: February 08, 2009, 03:45:11 PM »
#3 did have a nice, sprawling bunker at one time in front of the green. #8 is an interesting tee shot even today, although the fun ends once "Shadow Creek" starts towards the top of the hill. It's just the visuals and single dimension of the 2nd shot that are disappointing. And then you get to the "new" tee shot on #9.....

I agree with Tom Doak's comment. Bel Air, taken as "just" any other course....decent track, well kept, nice clubhouse; a nice day on the links. Hell, you might even see someone famous. But....this at one time was a landmark design out West, a fantastic routing over a tough site, with very bold/original features. Most of these have been obliterated by the names mentioned, the largest culprit being Dick Wilson. Fazio is simply carrying on a tradition of crapiness at the club today.

#8 tee shot


#8 from behind


#9 tee shot, back across #8 green & water feature, completely choked in. Beyond awful.

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Damon Groves

Re: work at Bel-Air?
« Reply #23 on: February 08, 2009, 03:56:49 PM »
thanks for the info guys.

Sorry to hear how far Bel Air has fallen from the original work by Thomas. Sounds similar to some of the holes at Ojai. Hard to understand the lack of appreciation of some of Thomas' work given he clearly seemed appreciated during his day.
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Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: work at Bel-Air?
« Reply #24 on: February 08, 2009, 04:20:41 PM »
Is that a new tee on #9, or did you always hit over the 8th green?  I sure don't remember that.

Wait ... I think I remember from Geoff's book that in the old days #9 was a driveable par 4 with a ravine in front of the green.  So they must have fixed it by putting in a back tee where you can't drive into the ravine.
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