Are Seminole's green complexes and surrounds

[Patrick_Mucci]

amongst the best in all of golf ?

They incorporate what I'd call a repelling technique, in that the greens are smaller in function than they appear, visually and measurably.

Shots hit to their perimeter invariably end up in bunkers, or the surrounding turf, sand or rough

When the ultimate element is factored in, the WIND, they become functionally smaller and more complex targets.

With their shape/configuration, in combination with the surrounds, the wind with its variable direction and velocity can make what appears to be a benign shot, a complex, intimidating and difficult shot.

It's a combination of angles, varying carry distances and the penalty for being short, long, left or right of the ideal target.

Do presentations of this nature force a golfer to work the ball versus a direct assault ?

[Mike Nuzzo]

It would be better to me with fewer bunkers - aesthetically and practically.
Having fewer bunkers can be just as strategic.

[Ryan Farrow]

No.

[Joe Hancock]

No.

Ryan's a minimalist.

Joe

[John Mayhugh]

amongst the best in all of golf ?

They incorporate what I'd call a repelling technique, in that the greens are smaller in function than they appear, visually and measurably.

Shots hit to their perimeter invariably end up in bunkers, or the surrounding turf, sand or rough

When the ultimate element is factored in, the WIND, they become functionally smaller and more complex targets.

With their shape/configuration, in combination with the surrounds, the wind with its variable direction and velocity can make what appears to be a benign shot, a complex, intimidating and difficult shot.

It's a combination of angles, varying carry distances and the penalty for being short, long, left or right of the ideal target.

Do presentations of this nature force a golfer to work the ball versus a direct assault ?

Interesting question.  I do think that the "repelling technique" and greens that play smaller than they actually are does require a lot greater variety of shotmaking.  This is especially true in the wind.

I've never seen Seminole in person but it seems like Ross also did this with far fewer bunkers and on a smaller scale at Holston Hills.  Fortunately, not nearly as much wind in Knoxville, Tennessee either.

[Andy Troeger]

Personally, if ALL or nearly all of the greens employ the same repelling technique that would seem like a weakness to me for lack of variety. Perhaps the subtety of the greens themselves overcome this...

At the same time it does make things more difficult and separates the perfect shot from the mediocre one.

Just a couple thoughts--I'm not familiar with the course so the thoughts are based solely on the previous comments.

[Joel_Stewart]

I've never seen Seminole in person but it seems like Ross also did this with far fewer bunkers and on a smaller scale at Holston Hills.[/quote]

According to Pete Dye who is one of the oldest members at Seminole and the only person you will ever meet who knew Donald Ross, the current greens at Seminole do not resemble the Ross greens.

[Matthew Mollica]

Pat, thanks for starting another interesting thread.

Let me preface my response by stating that I've not been to either Seminole, or Pinehurst.

Given your description of Seminole's greens, and write-ups of the repellant characteristics of the putting surfaces at Pinehurst #2, do you think the two courses are similar in that regard?

If not, how are they different?

Lastly, are there other Ross courses out there with greens similar to those you see at Seminole?

Thanks,

Matthew

[Joe Hancock]

Pat,

I also have not been to Seminole. A few questions:

Are most of the internal green contours of a large, convex nature vs. small and concave?

Are the majority of the surrounds below, equal to, or above the general grade of the greens?

Is there a repetitiveness about these shaped features? If so, is that a good thing or a bad thing?

Do the features at Seminole represent a conscious decision by Ross to be bold based on the grasses available in the time of design?

Thanks,

Joe

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,

I also have not been to Seminole. A few questions:

Are most of the internal green contours of a large, convex nature vs. small and concave?

They're varied, in form, size, presentation, angle, elevation and playability.
In examining/analyzing them, you also have to factor in the wind's effect on their play

Are the majority of the surrounds below, equal to, or above the general grade of the greens?

Once again, they vary, but, I'd have to say that the majority are below grade.  The heart of the golf course is barely above sea level.  I believe this caused Ross to elevate most of the greens in the center of the course.

However, # 1, # 7, # 8, # 9, # 10 and # 15 are at or barely above grade at the front of the green.

Is there a repetitiveness about these shaped features? If so, is that a good thing or a bad thing?

There is NO repetitiveness.
Each presentation differs due to the terrain and unique application of a putting green and surrounds.
While some say # 2 and # 11 are mirror images of one another, upon closer examination the left and rear of both green surrounds differ substantively.

Do the features at Seminole represent a conscious decision by Ross to be bold based on the grasses available in the time of design?

I don't think so.
I think the use of the topography was upper most in his conscious design decisions.  And, I think he used the two ridges brilliantly.
I think you appreciate that use when you view the pictures of Seminole shortly after a hurricane flooded the center of the golf course a few years ago.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat, thanks for starting another interesting thread.

Let me preface my response by stating that I've not been to either Seminole, or Pinehurst.

Given your description of Seminole's greens, and write-ups of the repellant characteristics of the putting surfaces at Pinehurst #2, do you think the two courses are similar in that regard?

There are similarities, but, the two courses are entirely different in the presentation, due in part to the topography and, I believe, the influence of the WIND.

I've always described Pinehurst # 2's greens as semi-umbrellas.
Seminole's are less so in terms of crowning within the putting surface.
Seminole's bunkering is also on a much larger scale.

If not, how are they different?

Lastly, are there other Ross courses out there with greens similar to those you see at Seminole?

I can only relate the greens/surrounds at Seminole to other Ross courses I've seen or played, and off the top of my head, they're quite unique.

I'm sure that sandy soil, unique topography, the wind and the need to elevate in certain areas conspired to produce a unique product.

[PThomas]

might not get much discussion Patrick just because Seminole is so exclusive/so few people have been there!

and i dont recall many pictures of the course on GCA either, unfortunately

[Patrick_Mucci]

I've never seen Seminole in person but it seems like Ross also did this with far fewer bunkers and on a smaller scale at Holston Hills.

According to Pete Dye who is one of the oldest members at Seminole and the only person you will ever meet who knew Donald Ross, the current greens at Seminole do not resemble the Ross greens.
[/quote]

Joel,

Aerial photos in the clubhouse and elsewhere would seem to refute that claim.  As would the topography.

I've also seen the original Ross field drawings and they too would seem to refute Pete's alleged contention.

As to Pete Dye knowing Donald Ross, I believe that's mostly an embellished myth.

Dye was only 22 when Ross died.
Pete was a life Insurance salesman until his early to mid 30's when he entered the design business.  And, he didn't marry Alice until 1950, two years after Ross's death.

As to his membership at Seminole, I don't believe he became a member until the 1960's, and, I believe his initial membership was a brief one, so I'm not positive that Pete, who's a terrific fellow, is an unimpeachable authority when it comes to Seminole.

[Bill_McBride]

I'm among the many who have not been fortunate enough to play Seminole    but one of our members, former Walker Cup captain, Downing Gray, and our head pro went down there a couple of winters ago to play in an event.

On return they were still shell shocked and said the greens were more diabolical than any they had ever played before between them.  The greens were running about 12 and the wind was howling.  More bunker shots rolled off the greens - perhaps into another bunker  - than stayed on the greens.  Putting was very challenging, one of those Troon moments when you were constantly concerned that the ball might move while addressing it with the putter.

It didn't sound like much fun under those conditions.

[Jerry Kluger]

Pat:

How much of the greatness of Seminole can be attributed to the wind - if the wind is calm, is the course still great?

If Pine Tree and Seminole switched locations, would Pine Tree be better and would Seminole be a lesser course? 

[John Sabino]

Pat - completely agree with your assessment of Seminole's greens, absolutely among the best in golf.

Jerry - having played the course in calm conditions, it is still great!

[Mike_Cirba]

Patrick,

It's sort of like that old saw that the wavy bunkers emulating natural dunes at Seminole were also Dick Wilson's idea....

..until pictures surfaced from before Dick Wilson's time there with the same wavy bunkers.

I love Dick Wilson and think he's generally underrated and overlooked, but I don't understand the credit he gets from some for Seminole.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat:

How much of the greatness of Seminole can be attributed to the wind - if the wind is calm, is the course still great?

Jerry,

I think the wind, or the effect of the wind, is the icing on the cake

If Pine Tree and Seminole switched locations, would Pine Tree be better and would Seminole be a lesser course? 

That's a question many have posed over the years.
But, you can't transpose the routings onto the terrain, at least not at Seminole.
The waterways and ridges have far too much influence to allow simply dropping another routing onto the property.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Bill McBride,

Certainly those conditions, under a medal play format, are stressful.

But, absent a medal play competition, those conditions are fun.

Years ago I invited some members to Boca Rio. They commented that the conditions were perfect.
They then invited me to Seminole.
I indicated that I'd only play if the wind was up.
When I got there, the American flag was snapping in the wind and they asked me what I thought about the conditions.  I told them they were perfect, just what I had hoped for.

With wide, generous fairways, it's a very sporty, challenging golf course.

In many cases a golfer suffers the consequences of a poorly thought out shot, or an overly bold shot, one that's beyond his ability.  The golf course is eminently fair.   Although, I do believe that excessive green speeds diminish the sportiness and challenge and can take the course over its architectural threshold.

[Bill_McBride]

Bill McBride,

Certainly those conditions, under a medal play format, are stressful.

But, absent a medal play competition, those conditions are fun.

Years ago I invited some members to Boca Rio. They commented that the conditions were perfect.
They then invited me to Seminole.
I indicated that I'd only play if the wind was up.
When I got there, the American flag was snapping in the wind and they asked me what I thought about the conditions.  I told them they were perfect, just what I had hoped for.

With wide, generous fairways, it's a very sporty, challenging golf course.

In many cases a golfer suffers the consequences of a poorly thought out shot, or an overly bold shot, one that's beyond his ability.  The golf course is eminently fair.   Although, I do believe that excessive green speeds diminish the sportiness and challenge and can take the course over its architectural threshold.

Patrick, I think your last sentence sums up the conditions that day.  The guys I mentioned have played enough high level golf to handle manageable conditions.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Bill,

With hole locations cut early in the morning, when it's usually calm, Mother Nature's fickle side can make conditions difficult.  One to two club length winds are pretty normal, three and up can turn "sport" into a "task"

[TEPaul]

"As to Pete Dye knowing Donald Ross, I believe that's mostly an embellished myth.
Dye was only 22 when Ross died.
Pete was a life Insurance salesman until his early to mid 30's when he entered the design business.  And, he didn't marry Alice until 1950, two years after Ross's death."


Pat:

It's no myth. Pete was in the army somewhere right around Pinehurst and he knew Richard Tufts and he went over to Pinehurst a lot. He did get to know Ross there. Also Pete and Alice being in the insurance business before architecture (which is true---they were both very successful insurance brokers) has nothing much to do with anything anyway as both Pete and Alice have always been really good players---tournament players; particularly Alice. And that Pete met Ross at Pinehurst did not come to me second hand, Pete told me that himself just about a year ago. During that same phone call I asked both Pete and Alice why they took that famous trip to Scotland to study golf architecture and they both said Richard Tufts (Pinehurst) was the one who told them to go over there to study architecture.

As for whether or not the greens of Seminole were changed from the way Ross designed them, it is certainly true that Pete says they were pretty much changed (internally) by a pretty well known contractor from Georgia some time ago. I recall he was a black guy.

I've never quite understood why but for some reason Pete doesn't seem to like Seminole's greens. About three years ago a bunch of us were talking to Pete at a club up here and he did allow as how he thought the greens of Seminole are about of the worst greens in the world. Again, I'm not sure why but that's Pete! 

This whole perception about Ross greens is sort of funny anyway, certainly including Pinehurst #2 and the significantly crowned greens there which so many seem to assume are some Ross signature green style. Those greens were not that way from Ross. Matter of fact, they became significantly that way within the last twenty years or so.

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

I believe Pete's dad, Paul Dye might have had a relationship with Donald Ross.

Pete said that he was introduced to Ross by J.C. Penney, probably between 1945 and 1948, but he didn't indicate that he had any relationship with him.

I knew the Tufts family too.
I also played against Pete at Pinehurst # 2 in the North-South amateur in the mid to late 60's.

If you accept Pete's contention regarding substantive changes to the greens at Seminole then you have to ask the following questions.

1  Who changed the greens ?
2  When were they changed ?
3  Why were they changed ?
4  How were they changed ?

Wilson was retained in 1948-49 and the greens were redone/regrassed in 1990.

Ross's original greens totalled 135,000 sq/ft.
They were allowed to shrink during WWII to save money.
When they were redone/regrassed in 1990 they totalled 88,751 sq/ft.
I don't know their square footage today, but, would guess that it's greater than 88,751.

Did Wilson's work incorporate far more than repositioning the 18th green ?

Indications are that his work included fairway work and greenside bunker work, but, there doesn't appear to be any reference to any changes to or in the greens.  Seminole acknowledges that there's an ongoing debate regarding Wilson's work in 1948.

If the opportunity to change the contours existed, it would seem that it would or might have occured under Dunphy's reign, as Green Chair or President, which coincides with Wilson's arrival on site.  It's acknowledged that Dunphy brought Wilson to Seminole to makeover the golf course subsequent to the powerful hurricane that damaged the golf course in 1948

When you address those questions, don't forget that nothing got done at Seminole without the blessings of the club President. (Dunphy's reign as Green Chairman under Hunt Dickinson might have been the exception.

Tim Neher
Barry Van Gerbig
George Coleman
Allan Ryan
Chris Dunphy
Hunt Dickinson
Bertram Taylor
Latham Reed
? 1937-40
Jay Carlisle
E.F. Hutton

So, under who's reign were they changed ? When, Why ? and to what degree ?

[Patrick_Mucci]

architecture.

As for whether or not the greens of Seminole were changed from the way Ross designed them, it is certainly true that Pete says they were pretty much changed (internally) by a pretty well known contractor from Georgia some time ago. I recall he was a black guy.

I've never quite understood why but for some reason Pete doesn't seem to like Seminole's greens. About three years ago a bunch of us were talking to Pete at a club up here and he did allow as how he thought the greens of Seminole are about of the worst greens in the world. Again, I'm not sure why but that's Pete! 

This whole perception about Ross greens is sort of funny anyway, certainly including Pinehurst #2 and the significantly crowned greens there which so many seem to assume are some Ross signature green style. Those greens were not that way from Ross. Matter of fact, they became significantly that way within the last twenty years or so.

Not according to Pete's written words, as memorialized in his book, "Bury me in a Pot Bunker"

Pete was originally at Fort Benning and was transfered to Fort Bragg about 40 miles from  Pinehurst.

Pete indicated that he made almost daily trips to play Pinehurst # 2 while he was stationed at Fort Bragg.

Having played Pinehurst # 2 since the early 1960's and as recently as a few years ago, I'd be curious to know how the greens were changed during that period, and when, and by whom ?

[Bill_McBride]

Bill,

With hole locations cut early in the morning, when it's usually calm, Mother Nature's fickle side can make conditions difficult.  One to two club length winds are pretty normal, three and up can turn "sport" into a "task"

I think the greens had become extra firm from the wind, and were double cut and rolled for this event.  In a strong wind the conditions became laughable, at least that's what I was told.