Are Seminole's green complexes and surrounds

[TEPaul]

It's interesting to me what Ryan Farrow says about the greens of Seminole. Having known those greens for over forty years I'd have to say a number of them certainly aren't as complex with their internal contours as a whole lot of greens I've seen around the country and elsewhere. Others at Seminole that can be really intense (given some pretty good greenspeed and green surface firmness) basically rely on fairly straight-forward slope to make them intense to play and score on.

There are about 6-8 greens at Seminole that really do that and it's interesting that the very same thing is true on another Ross course to the south known as Gulf Stream G.C. The latter course is shorter than Seminole and apparently was designed by Ross to be more of a "Members Course" but about 6-8 of its greens had (have) the very same green slope characteristics as Seminole's. If those greens at Gulf Stream were maintained as firm and fast as Seminole's they too would have the very same intensity of play.

It is also worth noting that Dick Wilson did do some work on Seminole (even if it has remained fairly unclear what ALL he did in detail) as well as on Gulf Stream probably around the same time. I don't know what ALL Wilson did at Gulf Stream either but I am sure of one thing he did----eg change the entire configuration and orientation of the 15th green, a hole and green that Ross seemed to be particularly proud of as he mentioned it in his own book (book manuscript).

[Patrick_Mucci]

"Both Tom MacWood and David Moriarty changed my opinion on issues, but,
they had a reasoned position supported by credible evidence."

Patrick:

That's interesting. If Tom MacWood and David Moriarty changed your opinion on any issues to do with the architects and architecture of Merion East, I'm sorry to hear about that as that would pretty much have to mean your opinion on that course is wrong.

NO, Tom MacWood was dead right, as was my opinion.
Crump's death was a suicide, which was contrary to the accepted cause of death until Tom MacWood proved it.

Initially I challenged his opinion, as did you, but, you too changed your opinion when Tom MacWood provided conclusive evidence to support his position.

One thing MacWood and Moriarty seemed to do with Merion is ask some interesting questions but their deductions, assumptions, presumptions, conclusions and basically their answers to those questions on here were seriously wrong if one is interested facts and not just questions.

With respect to Merion, specifically the 10th hole, David Moriarty was right, originally it was an "Alps" hole.  I challenged him on that as well, but, when he offered reasonable evidence to support his position, I changed my opinion and agreed with him.[/b]

Again, with Seminole's greens you seem to keep asking questions about the laser theodite process which I believe involved Ed Connor (who originally came from Fort Benning, Georgia). I'm not aware that Connor had anything to do with Seminole's greens but he did work on the Pinehurst #2 greens with the Nicklaus company apparently in 1987.

I'm not asking questions about either laser thedolite or Ed Connor as they relate to Seminole.  I just wanted to nip any theory that he changed the greens at Seminole.

As for the black contractor from Georgia Pete Dye referred to (I believe his name was Amos Jones) who Pete  believes significantly altered the internal characteristics of the Seminole greens, you should probably speak to Pete about that.

Does Pete believe it or does Pete know it ?
When was the alleged work done ?
Why was it done ?

To date, why is there NO published record of the work ?
"The Story of Seminole", the official Seminole publication, makes NO mention of any work by Amos Jones, nor does it mention any significant altering of the internal characteristics of Seminole's greens.

Brian Silva's work is mentioned, Dick Wilson's work is mentioned, but, there's no mention of any work by Amos Jones or ANY other architect.
Is that an oversight or is it historically accurate ?

Perhaps you've been familiar with Seminole for about 40 years, as I have, but you should remember Pete has also been a member of Seminole for a number of decades now, and Pete is also a golf course architect and because he is, one might rightly presume he knows some of these things a bit better than you and I do. 

Not necessarily.
This is "information"/"hard core data", not architectural insight or interpretation.

Where is Tom MacWood when I need him to research Amos Jones ?
We could probably narrow the dates that Amos Jones might have engaged in the alleged altering of the greens, and work from there.

So if you want to argue about what Pete said about the details of the evolution of Seminole's greens take it up with Pete and not with me.
All I can tell you is what he told me a year or so ago.

You're the one who posted the statement alleging that Seminole's greens were changed by Amos Jones, not Pete.   Therefore, the burden of proof resides with you.  While I know Pete and have played golf with him, it was longer than a year or so ago.  I'm sure that Pete would be happy to take your call and provide additional info that would allow us to clear up this subject.

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

With the vastly different topography at Seminole and Gulfstream, how are the greens and surrounds similar ?

Did Ross elevate the greens at Gulfstream and in doing so did he create the fall offs seen at Seminole ?

[Kirk Stewart]

While I like Oakmont, on a daily play basis I prefer Seminole, by a wide margin.  Oakmont really beats you up, it's a difficult challenge from any and all tees.  The fairways are narrow, the rough brutal, the fairway bunkering penal and the greens treacherous.  If that's your daily cup of tee ( ) you must be one hell of a golfer or a masochist.[/b]

Patrick,

Assume normal conditions at Seminole (firm and fast, green speeds hovering 11+ and the normal wind out of the SE at 10-15mph).

Also assume normal conditions members at Oamont routinely play.

If you played both courses at 6800 yards, I still think Seminole is tougher to score on.


With respect to your post, I do think Seminole has some of the best green complexes and surrounds in golf. The Old Course being my favorite and Augusta, Seminole , Ballybunion Old and Oakmont not far behind.

One of my best memories at Seminole occured on the 3rd. My playing partner had to lay up on his second and did so to perfect yardage~ 110 yards to attack a back right pin. He hit a glorious third shot that nearly flew in on the fly. During the time it took him to clean his club and fill his divot the ball came back to us and turned left only to end up down in the sandy natural area left of the green.

I don't think there is another course out there where one may see so many shots go back and forth across the green. If one is an average/below average bunker player, they may go from bunker to bunker to bunker back and forth across the green complex.

[TEPaul]

TEPaul,

With the vastly different topography at Seminole and Gulfstream, how are the greens and surrounds similar ?

Did Ross elevate the greens at Gulfstream and in doing so did he create the fall offs seen at Seminole?"


Pat:

I'm not sure what you mean when you say the vastly different topography at Seminole and Gulfstream. Both courses have a number of holes that are flat lowland (to the surrounding water table) and both courses have ridgelines. Seminole essentially has a ridgeline on its western side and a duneline/ridgeline elevation on its eastern side (the Atlantic shoreline). Gulfstream has a ridgeline running approximately down much of the middle of the course.

If you are thinking about vastly different elevation changes when you say Seminole and Gulfstream have vastly different topography, then you're apparently mistaken. Seminole probably has a bit more elevation (off sealevel) on its western side (Seminole's highest point) than Gulfstream has in its middle (Gulfstream's highest point) but probably not that much difference. If one stands on the back of the 8th green of Gulfstream (which might be the course's high point) and looks back at the fairway it might be a difference of around 40 feet, maybe a bit more.

So when you ask if Ross elevated his greens at Gulfstream in comparison to Seminole I don't know what you mean. At Gulfstream, like at Seminole, Ross put some of his greens at higher elevations than others as he did at Seminole. Again, greens at Gulfstream such as #5, #3, #8, #12, #13 and #16 are at some of the highest elevations that site and its gradual center ridgeline has to offer. This is similar to the greens at Seminole's primary western ridgeline such as #11, #4, #5, #6, and on the eastern duneline/ridgeline #13 and #18.

Yes, there are a number of falloffs from greens at Gulfstream most all in front as there are at Seminole.

[Patrick_Mucci]

I'm not sure what you mean when you say the vastly different topography at Seminole and Gulfstream. Both courses have a number of holes that are flat lowland (to the surrounding water table) and both courses have ridgelines. Seminole essentially has a ridgeline on its western side and a duneline/ridgeline elevation on its eastern side (the Atlantic shoreline). Gulfstream has a ridgeline running approximately down much of the middle of the course.

If you are thinking about vastly different elevation changes when you say Seminole and Gulfstream have vastly different topography, then you're apparently mistaken. Seminole probably has a bit more elevation (off sealevel) on its western side (Seminole's highest point) than Gulfstream has in its middle (Gulfstream's highest point) but probably not that much difference.

If one stands on the back of the 8th green of Gulfstream (which might be the course's high point) and looks back at the fairway it might be a difference of around 40 feet, maybe a bit more.

According to "Google Earth" the point you speak of, the 8th green, the highest point on the golf course is 23' above sea level.  Most of the playing surfaces of the golf course are well below that elevation.

The 18th hole, along the ocean is at about 14 FASL.

Seminole's elevation's are considerably higher and far more systemic as he used the huge western ridge to incorporate elements of 9 holes and the eastern ridge to incorporate elements of 5 holes.  Topographically, Seminole's elevations were put to greater use, perhaps because they were so vast in area.

So when you ask if Ross elevated his greens at Gulfstream in comparison to Seminole I don't know what you mean. At Gulfstream, like at Seminole, Ross put some of his greens at higher elevations than others as he did at Seminole. Again, greens at Gulfstream such as #5, #3, #8, #12, #13 and #16 are at some of the highest elevations that site and its gradual center ridgeline has to offer. This is similar to the greens at Seminole's primary western ridgeline such as #11, #4, #5, #6, and on the eastern duneline/ridgeline #13 and #18.

You're forgetting the 2nd green and approach, the 4th hole, the 6th hole and the 7th tee on the Western ridge and the 14th tee, 16th green, 17th tee and to a lesser degree the 17th green on the Eastern Ridge.

Yes, there are a number of falloffs from greens at Gulfstream most all in front as there are at Seminole.

As you know, the fall offs at Seminole exist at almost every flank and on a number of holes, on the back as well.

In light of the generally LOW elevations in many areas, sometimes as low as 1 FASL the question remains, did Ross substantially elevate all of his greens at Gulfstream ?

If he did, that would seem to inherently create dramatic fall offs similar to those at Seminole.

[Joel_Stewart]

Does anyone know what is going on with Seminoles greens? 

I talked with a member today who said they can't figure out why the greens are in such bad condition and they have ruled out that it's a fungus?

[Joe Hancock]

Does anyone know what is going on with Seminoles greens? 

I talked with a member today who said they can't figure out why the greens are in such bad condition and they have ruled out that it's a fungus?

I would imagine that they, as a private club, would be best suited to deal with any problems they may or may not have. For us here to even attempt a response is foolish, and, quite frankly, none of our business.

Joe

[TEPaul]

"In light of the generally LOW elevations in many areas, sometimes as low as 1 FASL the question remains, did Ross substantially elevate all of his greens at Gulfstream ?"


Pat:

It seems to me he elevated them on the lowland holes at Gulfstream about the same way he elevated them on the lowland holes of Seminole. It also seems to me that most all the greens that one hits up to at both Gulfstream and Seminole are pretty significantly tilted back to front which certainly makes perfect sense.

Joel:

That's a good question about what the matter is with the greens of Seminole recently. A neighbor of mine across the fields here belongs to Seminole and plays there throughout the winter and he mentioned a couple of weeks ago that they were having problems but he didn't know why.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Joel,

Another club in South Florida indicated in a memo to the membership that
September and October of 2008 were exceptionally cloudy.  They also provided rainfall and temperature stats which might have indicated that less than ideal conditions were leading up to Thanksgiving.

The conclusion was that clubs that tried to get their courses in F&F shape for the Thanksgiving holidays might have done so, but might have compromised the condition of the course beyond Thanksgiving.

If I was going to hazard a guess, that would be my guess.

[JESII]

Clouds?

No doubt you are referencing a direct source, but...Clouds???

[Patrick_Mucci]

Clouds?

No doubt you are referencing a direct source, but...Clouds???

Jim,

I don't know how it works in Philadelphia, but in South Florida, when it's cloudy the sun isn't out to allow for the anticipated growth of the grass.

When you factor in inproper or unexpected amounts of rain and/or cooler temperatures with cutting the greens to low to extra low heights, that can combine to produce a troubled product.

You wouldn't know that because most of the yards in Philadelphia are paved with concrete or asphalt.

[JESII]

The best thing about an asphalt yard is how well it prepares us for the challenges of some of the great courses we'll play...just referrence the AW Tillinghast rayionale for the development of Merion and PV...


Clouds?  Don't they typically carry some of that moisture?

[John_Cullum]

It has been very dry in South Florida the last few months. I have a place about 40 miles north of Seminole and the yard is in the worst shape its ever been

[Kyle Harris]

Does the grass even go dormant that far south?

My experience has been in Tampa and Lake Wales, so before I jump into this morass... I'd need some background.

My first reaction is... CLOUDS!?

Dryness would has a bigger affect, especially if they overseed.

[Anthony_Nysse]

Kyle,
  They do not overseed their tifeagle greens. Also, Tifeagle DOES NOT like long periods of cloudiness-It really has an effect on them. Bermudagrass, in general, really struggles without alot of sunlight, regardless of the temperature.

Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt.
Colonial Cc
Ft. Worth, TX

[TEPaul]

"They then invited me to Seminole.
I indicated that I'd only play if the wind was up."


Patrick:

Did you really? They asked you to Seminole and you're telling us if the wind wasn't blowing you were going to tell them you wouldn't play???

You got some pretty big balls to tell them that pardner!

If the wind was up when you all started and then it died down what were you going to do then, just tell them you weren't interested in playing anymore and walk off the golf course??

Don't be surprised, Guys, how Patrick responds to this. After-all this is the same guy who very nonchalantly told Weiskopf in a pro-am he was acting like a total asshole and if he wasn't having any fun it was just fine if he left!   

For practical purposes and other purposes of general perception reasons I will only leave this on this post for less than 24 hours, but----GOD do I love Patrick Mucci!!!

(and if someone on here tries to get cute and copy it they just may see the business end of my .45 revolver)

[Patrick_Mucci]

Dave Schmidt,

It turned out to be a very rewarding day 

TEPaul,

While I love Seminole under any conditions, the week's weather forecast for South Florida called for warm temperatures and clear skies, so I knew that it was going to be a banner day. 

Walking into the courtyard and hearing the American flag "snap" excited me all the more, for I knew that a spectacular challenge lay ahead.

My host and good friend knew me and knew exactly what I meant the previous day when I stated that I wasn't coming unless the wind was up.

While Seminole is great on a calm day, it really, really comes to life on a windy day.

I believe that golfers have a "connection" with certain golf courses.
I tend to believe that a positive mental outlook forms the basis for that connection.  For me, Seminole is one of those courses.  NGLA is another.

In Feb of 2008 I was as sick as I had been in five years.
I had a high temperature, was violently ill in that I couldn't hold anything in at either end, was dizzy, so weak I could barely make it from the bed to the bathroom and about 5 minutes away from being admitted into a local hospital.

I also knew that I was scheduled to play Seminole in another day or two.

Despite being weak, having little in the way of balance, a diminishing temperature and a sensitive stomach, I went to Seminole.

On the first tee I almost fell over when I hit my drive.
I played the worst golf I had played in a long while.
Even my caddy stated that he'd never seen me play so poorly.
But, I had an absolutely great day.
I loved it.  I didn't like my game or my score, but, I loved playing the golf course.  It was a joy and a herculian task at the same time.

There is just something extra special about Seminole and golf at Seminole, especially on a windy day.  It really tests your ball striking and your will.

You can't be having that bad a day if you're playing golf.
And, it's got to be a pretty good day if you're playing golf at Seminole.

I also believe that golfers have an aversion to certain courses.
I know I have mine, and, I believe that aversion is rooted in negative vibes that all too often manifest themselves in bad scoring rounds .

Now back to addressing the rest of your post.

I did tell Weiskopf to take his clubs, his caddy and his miserable self and go back to the clubhouse.  He was moaning and groaning and just being very unpleasant to everyone in the foursome, a foursome with three terrific amateurs and a PGA Tour Pro who wasn't happy to be where he was.  Strangely, after my earnest suggestion, he became more than tolerable and we actually hit it off pretty well.

The following year at the U.S. Open he greeted me like I was his long lost friend.  When he later confided that noone had responded to him as I had, I told him that with his personality I doubted that very much.  To his credit, he laughed.

While I used to be a very straight driver of the ball, I think I tend to really enjoy courses with very wide fairways.  There's something about those courses that really appeals to me, consciously and subconsciously.

I'm sure you're simpatico with a number of courses, and have a good deal of angst when it comes to other courses.

Perhaps that acceptance or rejection is the basis for our evaluation of the architecture.

[TEPaul]

Pat:

You said a lot in that last post particularly about Seminole.

Like you, I've known that course and club for many decades but it wasn't until the first Coleman that I really began to totally appreciate it. All those decades previous to that the course was pretty much always in a sort of "sleepy" memberhip maintenance mode if you know what I mean. Back in those days all it was to me was a couple of steps up difficulty-wise from Gulfstream. But then in that first Coleman I could not believe how different it was to play and score on and the truly fascinating thing to me is it didn't look that different but it didn't take long for me to realize it was very different to play. In that first Coleman I shot a 90 the first day and a 70 the second day (helped hugely in the second round by a new incredible caddie).

Since then the course has pretty much been maintained something like that Coleman about 20 years ago. A lot of trees and underbrush were taken or thinned underneath and it really opened up the look and feel of the place.

Even with all that, Seminole to me is very much an acquired taste for a lot of nuancy reasons. Some people don't see it or don't think that much of it but they are generally the ones who haven't had much experience with it, including, as you say, with the wind. I guess the course can sort of lay down if there's no wind sort of like Maidstone can and does but when the wind comes up it can be amazing.

Long ago I learned never to argue with those people who don't think that much of Seminole but again they usually are the ones who've only seen it very little and generally not the way we've known it.

But I don't think it's all that simple really because I did play a couple of Coleman's with no wind and the course was so different than the way I once knew it and it wasn't what anyone would call "Over the Top" setup-wise.

Well, maybe some would say it was a little over the top setup-wise but I wouldn't. The first Coleman was where I experienced my very first real IMM but at that time way back then I just hadn't and didn't put two and two together, if you know what I mean.

[Adam Jeselnick]

While flying into West Palm this week, I took note of how SMALL the site for Seminole is... especially relative to modern course design.  Can anyone provide the acreage for the golf course?
-AJ

[David_Tepper]

Has anyone out there played both Seminole and Royal Dornoch?

If anyone has, how would you compare the green complexes and surrounds at the two courses?

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

Like NGLA, I think you become more enarmored of the course the more you play it, benefiting from playing under all the wind directions possible.

That's one of the geniuses of Ross's design, the wind's influence on play, and the overall balance achieved irrespective of the direction of the wind.

# 10 is a relatively benign hole with no wind or with the prevailing winds, but, into a north wind, northwest wind or west wind, with the hole cut left, close to the water, that little hole becomes ferocious.

Playing Seminole with winds from the West, North, East and South is like playing four dramatically different golf courses. 
The wide fairways allow for changes in wind direction and increased wind speeds.

# 2, # 4, # 11 and # 16 play much softer with the prevailing winds out of the southeast, but, let the wind change direction and those hole become exponentially more difficult.

It's a treat to play and a spectacular treat to play under all wind conditions.

[TEPaul]

"Playing Seminole with winds from the West, North, East and South is like playing four dramatically different golf courses."


Patrick:

Just wait until you play Seminole from all the other wind directions I have! Then you will truly be in love with the course. One time in a strong NSW wind I even had to outmaneuver an Indian attack complete with bizarre and highly strategically confusing smoke messages between the 13th green and the 14th tee.  

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

On a hot, windless day, some of the best views from the golf course are from the back of the 14th tee, looking east 

[TEPaul]

Patrick:

You're right. It can even beat topless St Tropez. That was one of the last strategic features Ross called for. You think he was a conservative, avuncular Scotsman? No way!