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Tom Huckaby

USGA Publishes Bogey Ratings
« on: January 23, 2009, 05:05:46 PM »
OK, some here may recall the rants of me - and others - against using Slope as a measurement of difficulty... and truly VEHEMENT rants against courses that market their courses as somehow desirable because of their high slopes.  The rant was:

1.  Slope measures the DIFFERENCE in difficulty (more or less) between the scratch player and bogey player.  It just plain does not accurately measure pure raw difficulty for either - it's not intended to.

2.  High slope would mean in general that the course is a LOT harder for the bogey than the scratch.  Promoting that as somehow GOOD is just crazy.  If anything LOW SLOPES should be sought after and praised.

The last part of the rant has been that oh how I wished courses would publish their bogey ratings... and given there are so many more bogey golfers (or close thereto) than otherwise, it would be a valuable thing for many golfers to see... what they could really expect in terms of difficulty...

Well, unbeknownst to me, traction has been made.

Perhaps some are familiar with the USGA's national course rating database.

http://63.240.106.223/natcrsrating/ncrlisting.aspx

THEY NOW LIST BOGEY RATINGS!  Heck maybe they always did....  I just looked at it today.

To me this is a huge thing.

Does anyone else care?

 ;D

Charlie Goerges

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: USGA Publishes Bogey Ratings
« Reply #1 on: January 23, 2009, 05:16:27 PM »
Hey Tom, I think it's neat. One thing I noticed is that for a course close to my home, the course (from the tees I usually play) rating is .7 under par, but the bogey rating is 7.6 over bogey. The slope is 142. I'm guessing its easier for the scratch in relation to handicap than it is for the bogey golfer. Am I right?
Severally on the occasion of everything that thou doest, pause and ask thyself, if death is a dreadful thing because it deprives thee of this. - Marcus Aurelius

Tom Huckaby

Re: USGA Publishes Bogey Ratings
« Reply #2 on: January 23, 2009, 05:17:59 PM »
Hey Tom, I think it's neat. One thing I noticed is that for a course close to my home, the course (from the tees I usually play) rating is .7 under par, but the bogey rating is 7.6 over bogey. The slope is 142. I'm guessing its easier for the scratch in relation to handicap than it is for the bogey golfer. Am I right?

I think you have that right.. but my head kinda hurts trying to ascertain.

 ;D

For me it is just cool to see bogey ratings... they have a lot of meaning, I think.

TH


PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: USGA Publishes Bogey Ratings
« Reply #3 on: January 23, 2009, 05:44:39 PM »
Do they have a "hungover" rating as well?   :D ;D
H.P.S.

Tom Huckaby

Re: USGA Publishes Bogey Ratings
« Reply #4 on: January 23, 2009, 05:45:18 PM »
Do they have a "hungover" rating as well?   :D ;D

They do, but if I told you where to find it, I'd have to kill you.

 ;D

Bart Bradley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: USGA Publishes Bogey Ratings
« Reply #5 on: January 23, 2009, 05:47:06 PM »
So Tom, if the bogey rating is 96.1 what does that mean?  A bogey golfer will likely shoot a 96?

Please educate  ??? 8)

Bart

Tom Huckaby

Re: USGA Publishes Bogey Ratings
« Reply #6 on: January 23, 2009, 05:49:52 PM »
So Tom, if the bogey rating is 96.1 what does that mean?  A bogey golfer will likely shoot a 96?

Please educate  ??? 8)

Bart

Well we need John VanderBorght to give a well-educated answer... but it's described pretty darn well at the bottom of this page:

http://63.240.106.223/natcrsrating/ncrlisting.aspx

The answer is pretty much "yes" - in his best 10 of his last 20 rounds.

« Last Edit: January 23, 2009, 05:52:18 PM by Tom Huckaby »

Bart Bradley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: USGA Publishes Bogey Ratings
« Reply #7 on: January 23, 2009, 05:55:06 PM »
Thanks...I think I get it now...it seems that since they are using a 20 hcp as a "bogey" golfer, any bogey rating over 92 would be a harder than average course for said golfer.

Perfectly clear, I think?

Bart

Tom Huckaby

Re: USGA Publishes Bogey Ratings
« Reply #8 on: January 23, 2009, 05:58:34 PM »
That seems clear to me also, Bart.

However.... not sure 92 is a perfect barometer.  Remember indices are achieved by the difference between course rating and adjusted score... then also adjusted by slope... so the number might actually be LOWER than 92....

But hell, it's close enough.  Over 92 means a tough course for the bogey.

 ;D

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: USGA Publishes Bogey Ratings
« Reply #9 on: January 23, 2009, 06:11:48 PM »
Hey Tom, I think it's neat. One thing I noticed is that for a course close to my home, the course (from the tees I usually play) rating is .7 under par, but the bogey rating is 7.6 over bogey. The slope is 142. I'm guessing its easier for the scratch in relation to handicap than it is for the bogey golfer. Am I right?

I think you have that right.. but my head kinda hurts trying to ascertain.

 ;D

For me it is just cool to see bogey ratings... they have a lot of meaning, I think.

TH



Tom,

You don't seem to be able to figure out the significance of the bogey rating when asked! Why have you been pushing for it? I bet you can figure out how hard his course is from the slope. The slope is 142! So is it a hard course for the bogey golfer or what?!?!?!















 ;D
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Tom Huckaby

Re: USGA Publishes Bogey Ratings
« Reply #10 on: January 23, 2009, 06:18:09 PM »
Garland, that's not what he asked... what he did asked required a level of thought and math that was beyond my energy level right now.

But I'm sure you have the energy.. so go ahead and answer....

TH

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: USGA Publishes Bogey Ratings
« Reply #11 on: January 23, 2009, 06:40:33 PM »
Garland, that's not what he asked... what he did asked required a level of thought and math that was beyond my energy level right now.

But I'm sure you have the energy.. so go ahead and answer....

TH

Just giving you a bad time Tom, as the smiley deep in my post indicated.

Charlie,

Yes
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

TEPaul

Re: USGA Publishes Bogey Ratings
« Reply #12 on: January 23, 2009, 06:59:29 PM »
Essentially most golfers seem to think, and have for a long time, that a course's "Slope Rating" is the difficutly of the course for a good player (scratch player). It isn't.

The rating of a golf course for the scratch player is the "Course Rating" and that is almost always on course scorecards. (So basically probably way more than fifty percent of golfers think the "Slope Rating" is the same thing as a course's "Course Rating". Again, it isn't!   :P

The "Slope Rating" is a number calculated from a mathematical formula basically derived from the difference between a course's "Bogey Rating" and the course's "Couse Rating."

(Note: a "scratch" player is a golfer with a 0 handicap. A "Bogey" player for the purposes of these USGA Handicap System and course rating calculations is a figurative golfer with a handicap between app 17.6-22.1. A "Bogey" player is also assumed for course rating purposes to hit various shots or clubs certain fixed maximum distances).

Tom Huckaby's point is obviously that if a "Bogey Rating" is made more available to golfers they will begin to understand better what a "Slope Rating" REALLY is and isn't.

If courses would put on their scorecards the "Bogey Rating" along with the "Course" and "Slope" ratings which most all scorecards already have it would probably make things a lot clearer to a whole lot more people.

However, I fear that one of the primary reasons "Bogey Ratings" have never been put on scorecards is there really isn't much room left on most scorecards for it.  ;)
« Last Edit: January 23, 2009, 07:02:15 PM by TEPaul »

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: USGA Publishes Bogey Ratings
« Reply #13 on: January 23, 2009, 07:36:39 PM »
TEP

They should drop the slope rating from scorecards. That will make room for bogey ratings. When posting for a course not in the database of the system you are posting on, put in the rating and bogey rating. Let the computers be programmed to calculate the slope and make your handicap adjustments.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

JohnV

Re: USGA Publishes Bogey Ratings
« Reply #14 on: January 23, 2009, 07:42:27 PM »
Thanks...I think I get it now...it seems that since they are using a 20 hcp as a "bogey" golfer, any bogey rating over 92 would be a harder than average course for said golfer.

Perfectly clear, I think?

Bart

No, any bogey rating 20 strokes over the scratch rating.  Forget par.

JohnV

Re: USGA Publishes Bogey Ratings
« Reply #15 on: January 23, 2009, 07:52:15 PM »
Formula (for men):

Slope = (BogeyRating - CourseRating)*5.381

The slope rating for a course of standard difficulty is 113.  A course is given this Slope Rating when the difference between the Bogey Rating and Course Rating is 21 strokes.  (21 * 5.381 = 113)

Thanks...I think I get it now...it seems that since they are using a 20 hcp as a "bogey" golfer, any bogey rating over 92 would be a harder than average course for said golfer.

Perfectly clear, I think?

Bart

No, any bogey rating 20 strokes over the scratch rating.  Forget par.

So, I should correct my previous post to 21 strokes over the scratch rating.

Tom,  The bogey ratings have been available online for a few years.

Tom Huckaby

Re: USGA Publishes Bogey Ratings
« Reply #16 on: January 23, 2009, 08:18:38 PM »
Thanks, TEP and thanks, JV!

Heck, it doesn't surprise me these have been available on-line for a few years... the USGA course rating database is not typically something one seeks out.  The fact I - who DOES seek these things out - am only seeing it now ought to say something.  So why not put these on the regular GHIN version of this?  That is, the one one uses when seeking course rating and slope for on-line postings... And on top of that, why not publish them in huge letters on every scorecard?

Whoops, stop, baby steps.

Also thanks for the clarification as to what courses ought to be considered harder than average for the bogey golfer... more than 21 over course rating.  So in most instances that will indeed be over around 92 (71 being a pretty typical course rating)... but one can indeed get it more exactly.

This stuff does make my day.  Yes I am very very strange.
 ;D


Charlie Goerges

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: USGA Publishes Bogey Ratings
« Reply #17 on: January 23, 2009, 08:28:50 PM »
Tom H, I want you to say it with me...

T-H-E-R-A-P-Y!
Severally on the occasion of everything that thou doest, pause and ask thyself, if death is a dreadful thing because it deprives thee of this. - Marcus Aurelius

Tom Huckaby

Re: USGA Publishes Bogey Ratings
« Reply #18 on: January 23, 2009, 08:37:34 PM »
Tom H, I want you to say it with me...

T-H-E-R-A-P-Y!

LOL!
I am imagining if anyone I know outside of the golf world read this... how quickly they would indeed commit me.
 ;D


Peter Pallotta

Re: USGA Publishes Bogey Ratings
« Reply #19 on: January 23, 2009, 08:39:31 PM »
Tom - thanks. I like this. It has old-school charm. It's as clear as a bell. If printed on score cards, it might encourage more golfers to play from the appropriate tees. But more, it might have a symbolic (or maybe that's subliminal) effect, i.e. if the PAR "score" and the BOGEY "score" were side-by-side, it might suggest that there are different ways of measuring oneself and different ways of playing/interfacing with the architecture.

Peter
« Last Edit: January 23, 2009, 08:41:49 PM by Peter Pallotta »

Tom Huckaby

Re: USGA Publishes Bogey Ratings
« Reply #20 on: January 23, 2009, 08:44:50 PM »
Peter:

YES!  And can I get an amen?

Well said, brother.

TH

Charlie Goerges

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: USGA Publishes Bogey Ratings
« Reply #21 on: January 23, 2009, 08:54:34 PM »
Peter:

YES!  And can I get an amen?

Well said, brother.

TH

Oh great...now you've given it to Peter!  :o

GCA-TDs?
« Last Edit: January 23, 2009, 08:57:16 PM by Charlie Goerges »
Severally on the occasion of everything that thou doest, pause and ask thyself, if death is a dreadful thing because it deprives thee of this. - Marcus Aurelius

Peter Pallotta

Re: USGA Publishes Bogey Ratings
« Reply #22 on: January 25, 2009, 06:20:55 PM »
Tom - thanks. I didn't know about the USGA publishing Bogey Ratings, or even that such a thing existed. It was your thoughts and this thread and others that brought it all home to me.  Bumping this in the hopes that others jump in with their thoughts -- it is really starting to intrigue me.

Peter


Jim Nugent

Re: USGA Publishes Bogey Ratings
« Reply #23 on: January 26, 2009, 04:18:25 AM »
Formula (for men):

Slope = (BogeyRating - CourseRating)*5.381

The slope rating for a course of standard difficulty is 113.  A course is given this Slope Rating when the difference between the Bogey Rating and Course Rating is 21 strokes.  (21 * 5.381 = 113)

Thanks...I think I get it now...it seems that since they are using a 20 hcp as a "bogey" golfer, any bogey rating over 92 would be a harder than average course for said golfer.

Perfectly clear, I think?

Bart

No, any bogey rating 20 strokes over the scratch rating.  Forget par.

So, I should correct my previous post to 21 strokes over the scratch rating.


If I understand Bart right, he's not asking how tough a course is for bogey players compared to scratch.  He wants to know only about bogey.  In that case, CR doesn't matter.  Only BR does.   

So I think Bart, and especially Huck, are basically right. 

My guess is that in practice, CR usually gives bogey a good idea of what to expect.  Though I also wish they would post BR, not slope, on scorecards. 



Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: USGA Publishes Bogey Ratings
« Reply #24 on: January 26, 2009, 07:08:31 AM »
All of this of course leads to asking why Bogey Score is no longer used.  In the old days, many cards listed Bogey rather than or in addition to par as a guide for a good amateur (probably something like today's 3-6 capper), but not an expert player.  I would like to see more Bogey scores on cards.  I think the last time I saw such was at Addington. 

Ciao
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