[Matt_Ward]

Gents:

I'll give you all a sleeper -- when the hits are UPPPPPP -- you can't find a much more demanding course to play then Desert Dunes in the SoCal desert. I've been there when winds of 60-70 mph can whip through those passes. Starting hitting it the slightest bit sideways and you will whip through more balls than you can imagine.

Another SoCal torture chambey -- play The Ike at Industry Hills from the tips.

Bob H:

Keep in mind that the "extreme" tees you mentioned at The Ocean Course are rarely used for real purposes of 18-hole stroke play scoring. They are present -- but more for a "what if" fantasty than actually reality.

Even with that said -- I would agree that The Ocean Course still plays extremely mean from the next set of tee markers.

Chris B:

Good call on The Shattuck in NH -- but that's child's play to what you can experience at Bethpage Black.


Nick S:

The key demand at BB is that you are generally hitting into elevated targets -- the approach must FLY ALL THE WAY to the target in question. The terrain is also tough to walk and you can feel the sheer physical dimension as you climb Mt Olympus (aka the 15th hole) and the final climb on the route from #17 to #18 tee and to the green at the final hole.

BB makes hit off the tee for both length and accuracy -- those failing to get off the tee in a consistent manner are screwed -- big time !

Jim:

Can't see your point on Galloway -- if you want over-the-top hard try Shoregate just south of that by Ron Fream. Played from the tips and with the mosquitos biting it can be some adventure.

[TX Golf]

I'll second The Bridges in San Ramon and Crosswater in Sunriver.

Crosswater is borderline unfair for the bogey golfer. I wouldn't be surprised if a bogey golfer had multiple double digit scores on that course come  the end of a round.

[JSlonis]

Clearly the most punishing course pound for pound is Flying Hills near Reading, PA where close in houses, children, and OB line both sides of most every hole.

Its about 5800 yards and the last time I was there about 15 years ago I fired a solid 113.

Mike,

Great call on Flying Hills.  I used to play a Junior tourney there every year.  I vividly recall making birdie on a par 3 after bouncing my tee shot off an adjacent rooftop and onto the green to about 5 feet.

[Mike_Cirba]

Dan/Jamie,

Ahh...nice to see I have company enjoying the sadistic seduction of the Irv Althouse designed Flying Hills Golf Course. 

Gotta love this description from their website;

 The Flying Hills Golf Course weaves its way through the award winning residential development of Flying Hills and the surrounding open space of the community.  Flying Hills Golf Course features numerous rolling hills, streams, and densely wooded areas were you will often spot deer during your round of play. Flying Hills Golf Course is a par 70 playing to around 6000 yards, with undulating greens and plethora of pines and doglegs. Finishing up your round of golf, the last hole is highlighted by the over-the-lake shot on the signature 18th hole. This course is a pleasure to play by all skill levels, but even the most skilled players will enjoy the challenge to execute precise ball striking to better their score! 

      A conservative pondering of calculated gambles is required as the course offers the temptation for bold play with the big stick in cutting corners;  compromised with playing it safe and getting the ball in the fairways with your straight club.......... the secret to shooting low scores here! 

All,

Yes, believe it or not, there really is a golf course someone in there!

[Rob Rigg]

Another vote for BP B - ouch, that was a long day for a guy who had not played much since college and was living the good life in the City.

Tetherow - another tough course for mid-high handicappes because it can really punish a mistake.

If you are walking in the summer - really tough for any handicap!

[Kyle Henderson]

It hasn't been mentioned but I will say that Tobacco Road is a real beast for average players. Same with Tot Hill Farm. Both were ranked in the top 10 of the Golf Digest hardest clubs in America, if you put any stock in those rankings. But I will say both of those courses are very hard. I can certainly agree if anyone were to say they are the two hardest courses in NC. Maybe not the hardest in the US, but certainly up there.

If aggression is checked, Tobacco can be very forgiving. Very wide fairways and large greens. Granted, when a poor player gets out of position, they could be dead meat.

Tot Hill Farm will certainly kick a hacker in the teeth.

[Scott Szabo]

I'll throw out a course that many of the California boys may have played - the Eisenhower Course at Industry Hills.  I played a junior tour there in the late 80s and, from what I remember, that course would kill a mid to high handicapper that couldn't hit the ball 220 or so in the air and straight.  Granted, my memory may not be what it used to be.

[Mark Pearce]

I haven't played a lot of golf in the States but if there are many courses harder for the mid-handicapper than Wolf Run it would come as something of a surprise to me.  I did really enjoy it, though.

[MHiserman]

A local brute to the SF bay area would be
The Bridges Club of San Ramon.
Once was enough.  I have warned everyone I know.

[Chris_Blakely]

Gents:

I'll give you all a sleeper -- when the hits are UPPPPPP -- you can't find a much more demanding course to play then Desert Dunes in the SoCal desert. I've been there when winds of 60-70 mph can whip through those passes. Starting hitting it the slightest bit sideways and you will whip through more balls than you can imagine.

Another SoCal torture chambey -- play The Ike at Industry Hills from the tips.

Bob H:

Keep in mind that the "extreme" tees you mentioned at The Ocean Course are rarely used for real purposes of 18-hole stroke play scoring. They are present -- but more for a "what if" fantasty than actually reality.

Even with that said -- I would agree that The Ocean Course still plays extremely mean from the next set of tee markers.

Chris B:

Good call on The Shattuck in NH -- but that's child's play to what you can experience at Bethpage Black.


Nick S:

The key demand at BB is that you are generally hitting into elevated targets -- the approach must FLY ALL THE WAY to the target in question. The terrain is also tough to walk and you can feel the sheer physical dimension as you climb Mt Olympus (aka the 15th hole) and the final climb on the route from #17 to #18 tee and to the green at the final hole.

BB makes hit off the tee for both length and accuracy -- those failing to get off the tee in a consistent manner are screwed -- big time !

Jim:

Can't see your point on Galloway -- if you want over-the-top hard try Shoregate just south of that by Ron Fream. Played from the tips and with the mosquitos biting it can be some adventure.

Matt,

I have played Bethpage Black and I shot a lot better score there than I did at the Shattuck.  I know at the time I played the Shattuck that the back tee had a slope of 153.  The course has blind shots, huge carries over swamps, all or nothing par 3's, etc.  Not Easy.  If juxstapose the two courses - The Shattuck makes Bethpage Black feel like you have sidth and options.

As an aside, the Shattuck is the site of one of my all time favorite staff comments.  After the first green, I ran into the greenskeeper and this person said if you see a moose on the course don't go after it.  My response was why would anyone go after a moose.

Chris

[Tom Birkert]

By mid handicapper are we talking 12+?

In my experience I'd have to echo those who have named Bethpage Black. It's a slog. Lots of uphill approach shots, it's an absolute beast off the back tees and you're hitting a lot of fairway woods into greens.

PGA West Stadium I'd agree with too, simply because of the water that's in almost constant play. A few lost balls will add a few to the score very quickly.

[Matt_Ward]

Chris:

I assume you are a mid to high handicapper -- did you play the extreme tees at both BB and Shattuck?

Makes a big differences because the Black is loaded with plenty of tough carries - off the tee and to the approaches on so many holes.

Gents:

One can throw in a few FL courses into the mix -- anytime you have an abundance of OB on one side of the holes and H20 on the other -- throw in forced carries and the like and wind and you have the recipe for some big time numbers.

[Tom_Doak]

No one has mentioned Oakmont yet?  Gravity and fast greens are a difficult combination for high handicappers, too, and there are places there where a poor putter would be likely to pick up.

Old Marsh has as much water in play as any course I've ever seen.

[John Kirk]

I haven't played it, but I understand Wushkowan Player's Club has a high number of forced carries.  The rating is only 71.9/136, so it can't be too difficult.

I have a couple friends who speak fondly of Wuskowhan.

[Jason Connor]

I've only played Black twice and Oakmont once, but I'd have to add Oakmont to the list over Black.  (Im a 13-14).

Mid-high handicappers lose many strokes on the greens, and so Oakmont has much trickier and faster greens than Black.

[Chris_Blakely]

Chris:

I assume you are a mid to high handicapper -- did you play the extreme tees at both BB and Shattuck?

Makes a big differences because the Black is loaded with plenty of tough carries - off the tee and to the approaches on so many holes.

Gents:

One can throw in a few FL courses into the mix -- anytime you have an abundance of OB on one side of the holes and H20 on the other -- throw in forced carries and the like and wind and you have the recipe for some big time numbers.

I am a 10 to a 12.  I have not recalculated based on my last three rounds - there is something for me to do during our winter freeze.  I played the tips at The Shattuck and I played the 6600 ish tees at Bethpage.

Chris

[Carl Rogers]

In my skimming of the responses, I do not think anyone has mentioned a Mike Strantz course.  I have played Royal New Kent once.  Any sideways shots and you might as well put an 'X' on the card ... 4 & 5 putting very easy.

[J_ Crisham]

In my skimming of the responses, I do not think any has mentioned a Mike Strantz course.  I have played Royal New Kent once.  Any sideways shots and you might as well put an 'X' on the card ... 4 & 5 putting very easy.

Carl, I think you will see that Tobacco Road is listed on page1. not trying to be microcritical but you were looking for a Strantz course.   Jack

[Jim Thornton]

Tom Doak-

My index is 16.5, and I have played both Oakmont and Bethpage Black.  At least for me, Bethpage played much harder.  The difficulty I incurred at Bethpage was primarily a function of two things:

1.  Forced Carries from the Tee - I'm thinking specifically of the 5th, where I stood on the tee and literally did not know where to hit my drive (I couldn't carry the bunker from the tee, and there was no layup area short or left of the bunker) and the 10th, where I couldn't reach the fairway from the tee.

2.  Requirement to Hit Long, High Shots into the Greens - By my count, there are at least 15 holes that require you to fly the ball onto the green and give you no option to run the ball onto the green.  There are also several holes where you're hitting to an uphill green and must fly the ball all the way to the green - the 2nd, 4th, 5th, 17th and 18th all come to mind.

The reason that I found Oakmont easier than Bethpage Black (although certainly not easy in it's own right - in fact, it's a beast also.  I'm just talking in relative terms) is two fold - the ability to run the ball onto many greens and the presence of a few shorter holes that offer a sense of having a reasonable chance to make par.

1.  Ability to Run the Ball onto the Greens - At Oakmont, by my count, there are at least 10 holes that allow you to run the ball onto the green (the following holes come to mind - 1st, 3rd, 4th, 7th, 8th, 9th, 10th, 12th, 15th, and 16th).

2.  A sprinkling of relatively shorter holes that give you some respite from the brutish length of the remainder of the course.  I'm thinking of the 2nd, 5th, 6th, 13th, 14th, and 17th, all of which present a reasonably good par opportunity, even for a higher handicap player.

I concede your point regarding the difficulty of the greens at Oakmont vs. Bethpage Black - no comparison there whatsoever.  Oakmont's greens are far more treacherous and bring the possibility of 3 or more putts into the equation on every green.  With that said, however, I still stand by my assertion that on balance Bethpage Black is tougher than Oakmont.


Jim

[Tom_Doak]

Jim:

Thanks for your answer and analysis.  I did not recall that Bethpage Black required so many forced carries onto the greens.  The first time I played the course was as a high school senior, in the company of my mom (a 36+ handicap); and while it was VERY difficult for her, I don't remember it as impossible.  Then again, she had no illusions about hitting a 4-iron onto any of the greens!

How far back did you play the two courses?  That has to factor into any analysis of relative difficulty, but it wasn't clearly defined in the first post.

[Jim Thornton]

Tom-

I played the middle (member) tees at both courses.  In both cases there were a few blue tees mixed in, but for the most part it was white tees.  I have no disillusionment about which tees I belong on - as a 16.5 index, I have no business playing blue tees and the championship tees are pure suicide.

One of my pet peeves is people who don't play the tees that are best suited to their ability.  For too many players, pride gets in the way and they play tees that are beyond their ability.  For me, it's just no enjoyable to play a course from blue tees when my game is suited to white tees.  6200 yards or so is plenty for me.  In fact, when I'm playing with better players and they all want to play blue tees, I still usually play white and we just work out the shots based on the number of strokes relative to each tee.  It really doesn't slow down play and I think everybody ends up having a better experience.


Jim

[Matt_Ward]

Chris:

Thanks for the info.

If you played BB from the tips I think you would get a far better appreciation of the design hurdles you encounter from those markers.

Jim T:

Thanks as well for your detailed comments. I have played Oakmont -- not as many times as BB -- but I would give both courses equal stature.

Walking the terrain at BB is no easy matter. Like I said, and what I mentioned earlier, the approach shots to BB are often underplayed by a great many people. You have to hit the fullest of yardages -- often times the elevated nature will add a minimum 2-3 clubs into the target. Good case in point - the 2nd hole. Plays roughly 400 yards in terms of "card" yardage but in reality the approach will mandate extra clubs to get back to wherever the pin is located. The same can be said for the 5th and numerous other holes.

You also have the large carries to negotiate.

Oakmont makes up for this with the wicked nature of the putting surfaces. Three-putts are routine and no doubt you'll get mid to high handicap types four and five putting.

BB is a killer as it constantly puts extreme pressure to drive the ball -- both for distance and sufficient accuracy. Those who are mid to high handicap types will have accidents of the tee game and when they do BB will grab them and punish them big time.

[mike_beene]

I wouldn't answer this Pinehurst #2,but one of the bloodiest rounds I have seen was a guy with a 15 handicap who hits it pretty well but flips his chips and putts.He didn't finish half the holes(but never lost a ball)

[Chris_Blakely]

Chris:

Thanks for the info.

If you played BB from the tips I think you would get a far better appreciation of the design hurdles you encounter from those markers.

Jim T:

Thanks as well for your detailed comments. I have played Oakmont -- not as many times as BB -- but I would give both courses equal stature.

Walking the terrain at BB is no easy matter. Like I said, and what I mentioned earlier, the approach shots to BB are often underplayed by a great many people. You have to hit the fullest of yardages -- often times the elevated nature will add a minimum 2-3 clubs into the target. Good case in point - the 2nd hole. Plays roughly 400 yards in terms of "card" yardage but in reality the approach will mandate extra clubs to get back to wherever the pin is located. The same can be said for the 5th and numerous other holes.

You also have the large carries to negotiate.

Oakmont makes up for this with the wicked nature of the putting surfaces. Three-putts are routine and no doubt you'll get mid to high handicap types four and five putting.

BB is a killer as it constantly puts extreme pressure to drive the ball -- both for distance and sufficient accuracy. Those who are mid to high handicap types will have accidents of the tee game and when they do BB will grab them and punish them big time.

Not sure why everyone says walking BB is so hard.  I have always enjoyed the walk.  Never have I finished there and felt overexerted.  There are numerous courses that are much harder to walk in the northeast some of which I finished and asked myself why I just walked that course.

Chris

[PCCraig]

I would say almost any course can be made reasonable by playing the right set of tees. In no way shape or form should a 15 handicap play a course any longer than 6500, except in Denver.

A couple courses in Chicago, butler national and bull valley are unplayable for a lot of high handicap players, but mostly from long forced carries and forced yardage from playing too far back.

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