[Bryan Bergner]

John

Sounds like you and the acquaintances you speak of had a bad experience in the "club" side of golf.

I'm sorry that I don't know your background.  Anything good happen to you in your experience?  Ever meet any members that were not evil, or require ass kissing? 

To suggest that if you can't make it on tour you should not be in the business is ridiculous
 

BB

[Kyle Harris]

Brett,

Bethpage. With the U.S. Open there in June, the amount of work that will be done both before and after it is played on all 5 courses will provide a unique educational opportunity. In addition, as a municipal golf course, it opens up other avenues of the business that you might not have considered. Finally, between all of the "dignitaries" and people from throughout the world of golf on every level who will be on site, it will also provide a tremendous network building opportunity.

I agree with Phillip.  Seems like a great/unique opportunty.

It's actually not. We (Penn State) had a few interns there for the 2002 US Open and they did very little that was transferable for their career. Bethpage is unique in that the pro shop is somewhat separated from the facility - the pro does no player management, for example. Being around a US Open was an experience, but really not very useful in the grand scheme of things.

[Brett Waters]

Brett,

Bethpage. With the U.S. Open there in June, the amount of work that will be done both before and after it is played on all 5 courses will provide a unique educational opportunity. In addition, as a municipal golf course, it opens up other avenues of the business that you might not have considered. Finally, between all of the "dignitaries" and people from throughout the world of golf on every level who will be on site, it will also provide a tremendous network building opportunity.

I agree with Phillip.  Seems like a great/unique opportunty. 

It's actually not. We (Penn State) had a few interns there for the 2002 US Open and they did very little that was transferable for their career. Bethpage is unique in that the pro shop is somewhat separated from the facility - the pro does no player management, for example. Being around a US Open was an experience, but really not very useful in the grand scheme of things.

Good to know, Kyle. Bethpage has always been one of my favorite golf courses so it was something I was interested in with the Open coming during the same time I'd be there. But, as I'm sure you know, you really need a professional who you can easily get in contact with when it comes down to working on the books.

I'm hoping to make it somewhere out west or on Long Island. My internship coordinator contacted several different clubs on Long Island. Every single one that responded said they either needed 6 month interns or they already had all their positions filled.

[John Moore II]

John

Sounds like you and the acquaintances you speak of had a bad experience in the "club" side of golf.

I'm sorry that I don't know your background.  Anything good happen to you in your experience?  Ever meet any members that were not evil, or require ass kissing? 

To suggest that if you can't make it on tour you should not be in the business is ridiculous
 

BB

Yes, I certainly have had some good experiences in the business. Especially now that I am in a job that I like, and I like it a lot. Actually the first guy to tell me that maybe I aught not to go into the golf business has a very good club, he owns his shop, the range, and his carts, and has a very good membership. Its just that he has been in the business long enough to see some major changes and knows that today the business is not that great today. The other two guys just had some issues with how the PGA itself has managed member issues and things like that.

I'll just say this simply, the golf business is not some milk and cookies affair. The pay in some places for assistant professionals stinks. I worked outside staff at a ClubCorp club where the assistants made $7.50 per hour. My 3 assistant jobs have paid $8.00/hr, $22k/year, and $9.50/hr. I interviewed for a job that paid $25,000/year but you worked 60 hours a week for 9 months of the year, and 50 hours a week for the other 3 months. You will find some very cool members at clubs, but you will find some of the members are real knuckleheads. If you are lucky enough to get an older professional to work under, someone who has been in the business for 15+ years, you will be very fortunate and you will have a good experience. At my current job, I work for a man who has been in the business for 22 years, great man to work for and exceptionally knowledgeable in the golf business. The same can be said for the GM at my old club. The head pro however, was something less than exceptional; more of a 'bean-counter' and shirt folder type who had been in the business less than 3 years.

Like I say, I have had some very good experiences in the golf business. Part of the reason I said to look into AMF Golf Management because most of those Head Professionals either are the old-school type or worked for an older professional.

The golf business can be really good, you just have to make sure to find your fit. I'm not fit for the club side. I am a better fit for instructing and owning my own place. I am lucky to be working for a person who does both now.

I'm just not going to sugarcoat everything that goes on in the business like many people will. If you want to get in the business, fine. Just make sure you know its not all fun.

[Casey Wade]

Brett,

I forgot to plug my management company, OB Sports.  Some great golf courses but they are mainly Central and West.

check out OBsports.com

[Andy Troeger]

John,
What did you think you were getting into? I considered getting into the golf profession after college (admittedly a little late), did a minimal amount of research to discover that you work a lot of hours, work weekends, and don't make much money for the first few years and perhaps more. The literature also admitted that quite a few folks move on to different careers. That was enough for me to go a different route. Obviously there are rewarding aspects as well--or I wouldn't have looked into it in the first place. Having been a high school golf coach I enjoyed the teaching aspect and being around the game, but there are tradeoffs with everything. My understanding is that you can do pretty well for yourself once you've paid your dues so to speak.

No matter what industry you work in, your immediate supervisor has a HUGE impact on your job satisfaction. Perhaps that is part of the reason so many people want to work for themselves, but that's not always so easy either. Give and take...

[bill_k]

I can appreciate both John's and jeffwarne's opinion. The golf industry is not for everyone. I would venture that most people who get into the business do so by the allure of actually playing the game...and over time that excitement abates as the realities of the business settle in. Unless you are in a specific geographic location (The Met Section. NE Section, New Jersey...etc) no one cares how proficient you are with a club in your hand. You have to enjoy using golf as a medium of influencing peoples lives and enjoyment of the game. Most guys who have managed to secure a good job at a club that respects and appreciates them (such as Jeffwarne obviously has) naturally see the business as tough and demanding but ultimately rewarding if you work hard enough and do the right things the right way.
As a former golf professional, I can honestly tell you that I regard the years I spent in the golf industry as the single worst mistake of my life...but it had nothing to do with the memberships that I dealt with on a daily basis...most of whom I found to be supportive, encouraging, and genuinely concerned about my well-being and career...
The biggest reason I decided to get out was the fact that I came to see that the industry exploits its young golf professionals.
In brief, I realized that the amount of money i made paled in comparison with my college classmates with similar education...in what other profession can an individual with a Bachelors degree and an advanced certification (The PGA's Professional Golf Management Program that leads to PGA membership) earn less than 30k per year?
I have found that a significant number of clubs violate wage and hour laws by paying assistants a salary and then expecting them to work 45-65 hours per week. Many management companies similarly break the law by requiring assistants to teach "off the clock".
I have a friend (who has a college degree) who works at a high-end private facility that pays its assistants $10 per hour (so the only way you can make a decent salary is to work 65 hours per week). The assistants are encouraged to teach, but the club takes 30% of the lesson income right of the top. The only reason my friend can afford to stay in the golf business is the fact that his wife (who has only a high school diploma) has a good job with the state.
So, I would expect a guy who makes enough money to support a family, own a home, and maybe even a car to paint a different picture than a guy who has had some frustrations with the business.
Most of the clubs that hire interns do not do it out of any sort of altruistic motive, they do it because an intern will work for less money and does not require health insurance. I would suggest this young man find a career that will reward him with some satisfaction AND financial reward...so he can enjoy golf on his own terms.

[jeffwarne]

Bill,
All true.
And the resume is huge.
Yet the jobs are out there.
I'm just shocked at how little effort assistants and interns will make to shape the outcome of their career-and how unwilling people are to move to improve their career.
I started with NO contacts, bartending at night to pay for golf to make ends meet

I know I wouldn't wait for my intern coordinator to contact " several clubs"
and find me a job.

[Kyle Harris]

Bill,
All true.
And the resume is huge.
Yet the jobs are out there.
I'm just shocked at how little effort assistants and interns will make to shape the outcome of their career-and how unwilling people are to move to improve their career.
I started with NO contacts, bartending at night to pay for golf to make ends meet

I know I wouldn't wait for my intern coordinator to contact " several clubs"
and find me a job.

Jeff,

Were you pursuing a college degree full time? Brett is an undergrad at NC State. Given the relative difficulty of the business, would you suggest Brett compromise his undergrad degree in order to jockey for position as the 2nd Assistant at some high end club or find people willing to work around him?

[jeffwarne]

Bill,
All true.
And the resume is huge.
Yet the jobs are out there.
I'm just shocked at how little effort assistants and interns will make to shape the outcome of their career-and how unwilling people are to move to improve their career.
I started with NO contacts, bartending at night to pay for golf to make ends meet

I know I wouldn't wait for my intern coordinator to contact " several clubs"
and find me a job.

Jeff,

Were you pursuing a college degree full time? Brett is an undergrad at NC State. Given the relative difficulty of the business, would you suggest Brett compromise his undergrad degree in order to jockey for position as the 2nd Assistant at some high end club or find people willing to work around him?

Kyle,

Every great intern I've hired sent me a resume and or cover letter(with my name spelled correctly ) as the first contact.
The two I hired that weren't great (abysmal actually) the initial contact was from the school.

If showing initiative by contacting a club/pro on your own (in the appropriate manner of course) is considered inappropriate by the college, I would immediately seek my education elsewhere

Hopefully ,how to find/get a job is part of their curriculum.
I'm having a hard time seeing why he'd be compromising his degree.

[Kyle Harris]

I think we're on different pages. Didn't you suggest he try to extend his months available into September? That would seriously cut into his semester.

I agree with finding your own internship, or at least making the initial contact. We were lucky at Penn State in that the clubs actually came to us, but it was our job to make the initial contact. The internship coordinator was there to make sure the internship would count for credit.

[jeffwarne]

Kyle,
We were
I had an intern who prearranged with his teachers to register, get the assignments for 2 weeks and fly back.
Not being able to work the last 2 weeks of August is a deal breaker on Eastern Long Island.
If the classes start mid late August, and he's there for the first couple days to settle in, it's hard for me to believe those 2 weeks are going to ruin his grades. (but then I went to UGA )
but even if he got a "B" or a "C" in a class, careerwise it'd make NO difference in the golf business (or any other business for that matter),but if it meant getting a job at a great resume builder, it could lead to more great internships and jobs.

[John Moore II]

I can appreciate both John's and jeffwarne's opinion. The golf industry is not for everyone. I would venture that most people who get into the business do so by the allure of actually playing the game...and over time that excitement abates as the realities of the business settle in. Unless you are in a specific geographic location (The Met Section. NE Section, New Jersey...etc) no one cares how proficient you are with a club in your hand. You have to enjoy using golf as a medium of influencing peoples lives and enjoyment of the game. Most guys who have managed to secure a good job at a club that respects and appreciates them (such as Jeffwarne obviously has) naturally see the business as tough and demanding but ultimately rewarding if you work hard enough and do the right things the right way.
As a former golf professional, I can honestly tell you that I regard the years I spent in the golf industry as the single worst mistake of my life...but it had nothing to do with the memberships that I dealt with on a daily basis...most of whom I found to be supportive, encouraging, and genuinely concerned about my well-being and career...
The biggest reason I decided to get out was the fact that I came to see that the industry exploits its young golf professionals.
In brief, I realized that the amount of money i made paled in comparison with my college classmates with similar education...in what other profession can an individual with a Bachelors degree and an advanced certification (The PGA's Professional Golf Management Program that leads to PGA membership) earn less than 30k per year?
I have found that a significant number of clubs violate wage and hour laws by paying assistants a salary and then expecting them to work 45-65 hours per week. Many management companies similarly break the law by requiring assistants to teach "off the clock".
I have a friend (who has a college degree) who works at a high-end private facility that pays its assistants $10 per hour (so the only way you can make a decent salary is to work 65 hours per week). The assistants are encouraged to teach, but the club takes 30% of the lesson income right of the top. The only reason my friend can afford to stay in the golf business is the fact that his wife (who has only a high school diploma) has a good job with the state.
So, I would expect a guy who makes enough money to support a family, own a home, and maybe even a car to paint a different picture than a guy who has had some frustrations with the business.
Most of the clubs that hire interns do not do it out of any sort of altruistic motive, they do it because an intern will work for less money and does not require health insurance. I would suggest this young man find a career that will reward him with some satisfaction AND financial reward...so he can enjoy golf on his own terms.

I can echo just about everything said here. It really resembles my experience, though I wouldn't say my time in the golf business was the worst experience I've had.

[Cory Lewis]

Geez, after reading all the stuff in this thread,  I have one simple thing to say which sums up my thoughts on being a golf professional, if you want to be a golf professional DON'T DO IT FOR THE MONEY!!!!!!!!!!!!  This is not a job that is about money, it really never has been and never will be, it's about finding something that you love doing that you can do for your entire career.  If you want to make money, want to play alot of golf, want to have an easy 9 to 5 job, GET OUT OF THE BUSINESS!!!!  If your like me and you love the 14 hour days, the 80 hour weeks and the satisfaction of turning a 30 handicap student into a single digit handicapper, then you will be fine.   

My advice Brett would be to go somewhere far away that you know nothing about, I guarantee you that you will have a tremendously rewarding experience.  I went to PGM at Campbell and did an internship at Crosswater in Oregon that was the best summer of my life, didn't know anything about the place, but took a risk and it payed off.

[Brett Waters]

I think we're on different pages. Didn't you suggest he try to extend his months available into September? That would seriously cut into his semester.

I agree with finding your own internship, or at least making the initial contact. We were lucky at Penn State in that the clubs actually came to us, but it was our job to make the initial contact. The internship coordinator was there to make sure the internship would count for credit.

Interesting; we were told early on in the year to absolutely not contact clubs on our own. However, since I have sooo many places I'd love to go, there was no way I could have my coordinator contact them all. So I have sent some e-mails myself.  .  We have some clubs that come to us, but many that don't, especially clubs out west.

[John Moore II]

I think we're on different pages. Didn't you suggest he try to extend his months available into September? That would seriously cut into his semester.

I agree with finding your own internship, or at least making the initial contact. We were lucky at Penn State in that the clubs actually came to us, but it was our job to make the initial contact. The internship coordinator was there to make sure the internship would count for credit.

Interesting; we were told early on in the year to absolutely not contact clubs on our own. However, since I have sooo many places I'd love to go, there was no way I could have my coordinator contact them all. So I have sent some e-mails myself.  .  We have some clubs that come to us, but many that don't, especially clubs out west.

I would not recommend emails. I would go with what was said earlier in the thread and send clubs a real letter through the mail, better yet send them a full cover letter with resume. Emails are far too easy to just delete without reading but letters are at least going to be seen. It also shows that you are more serious about the job if you send stuff through the mail. At least that is how me and a decent number of other professionals would see it.

[Patrick Hodgdon]

Hey Brett- There is a new head professional up here at Interlachen CC in Minneapolis, Nathan Ohloff who was formerly working as an assistant  at Seminole and the Country Club at Brookline. He is young (27 I think) and is a graduate of the PGM program at Methodist. He came very well recommended by Brendan Walsh and Bob Ford which is saying something indeed. He was just hired so he's probably just putting together his summer crew and Interlachen would be a great place to learn. I would imagine that after getting a head pro gig at a top 100 club at age 27, Nathan could teach you a few things and connect you with some good people so it's probably worth sending a letter and following up a week later with a phone call.

I would also second the suggestion to go someplace completely new. I did a 2 month internship in Annapolis, MD where I didn't know a soul and I have many fond memories of exploring a new city and being on my own.

[John Moore II]

Brett
Check your private messages. Look at the top right corner of this screen, you can check the messages up there. I sent you something the other day

[PCCraig]

Hey Brett- There is a new head professional up here at Interlachen CC in Minneapolis, Nathan Ohloff who was formerly working as an assistant  at Seminole and the Country Club at Brookline. He is young (27 I think) and is a graduate of the PGM program at Methodist. He came very well recommended by Brendan Walsh and Bob Ford which is saying something indeed. He was just hired so he's probably just putting together his summer crew and Interlachen would be a great place to learn. I would imagine that after getting a head pro gig at a top 100 club at age 27, Nathan could teach you a few things and connect you with some good people so it's probably worth sending a letter and following up a week later with a phone call.

I would also second the suggestion to go someplace completely new. I did a 2 month internship in Annapolis, MD where I didn't know a soul and I have many fond memories of exploring a new city and being on my own.

Nathan was an assistant at TCC a couple summers ago when I was working out there while in school. He is a great guy...good to hear he ended up at another nice club as a Head Pro!

[Scott Stearns]

i'm late but i'll junp in.

1-you are responsible for getting your own job.  the jobs intern coordinators get for you are not as good as the ones you can get on your own.  Best thing that ever happend to me was the fact that NOBODY recruited at my alma mater, so i had to find my own way.

1-the recommendation you get (or dont) from the head pro at the end of your internship, and the reputation of the club, will be more important to your first (and second and third) job than your ENTIRE COLLEGE RECORD.  No recommendation will make up for lousy grades, but 3/4 of your college career is over already.  fall semester senior year will have little impact on your overall GPA. 

if you cant make up a few weeks of missed work your senior year, you have bigger problems. 

Get the best job you can - at a good club with a pro that has a reptutation for putting his assistants in good jobs (Bill Harmon, Bob Ford are the models)

When you get a job - work as hard as you can as long as you can, and then milk the experience for all its worth to get your first full time place.

School is (almost) out

[Chris Garrett]

Brett,

I graduated from the Penn State PGM program in 2003.  Although I left the business in 2006, I continue to carry lessons learned during my internships.

You generally will hear one of two thoughts about internships:

1) Go where you'll learn the most.  After all, the PGM bookwork is a time waster compared to what you'll learn hands on at a facility.

2) Put the best possibly facility name on your resume. 

If you can, find the best combination of those two angles.  I'll offer you some advice based on my experiences:

1) Make sure that the head professional is committed to developing Interns, and not simply using them as extra hands during the months which you are there.

2) Use your first and possibly second internships to work in the outside operations of a club/course.  With that in mind, find a place (possibly resort), which does this stuff like clockwork.  You'll really learn a lot, and may even be given managerial responsibilities if you prove yourself.

3) The majority of clubs that take interns are aware that the commitment is from the end of classes in the spring through until classes begin in the fall.  Don't try to take extra days before and after - I only ever took 2 days between school and internship. 

4) Make your self the star employee while you are there.  Work harder than everyone else, always be looking for and/or asking for work, and learn everything you can about why a head professional and facility do things the way they do.  You most likely will be required to work between 35-40 hours a week.  That's really not that much.  Use some of your down time to assist with small projects, or to sit in and learn about everything that you possibly can.

5) At the end of the day, it comes down to contacts and references.  If you work at your local high school golf course, the chances are your network will hardly grow.  If you work for Bob Ford, and do a great job, your network will expand exponentially. 

I hope that helps.  Basically, get to a great club, course, resort, where you are a vital part of the operation and can learn a lot.  Work your rear off so that you get the recommendation for your next internship, and then repeat the process the following summer.  And don't be afraid to go away from home, if you are not one of those guys who gets home sick.

Btw, Kyle is correct about Bethpage.  The disconnect of the pro shop and the operations of the courses basically means that one has little opportunity to be involved outside of selling merchandise. 

And not to forget, your first internship isn't the place to plant your feet with a certain management company.  Wait until your 3rd or 4th internship to do so, if that is your wish.  And your program needs to loosen the strings on you guys to reach out for jobs.  That's a lot for one PGM office to take on.  They should be there to support you, not take over your duties.  Also, get cracking on getting resumes sent out.  Most clubs will fill their spots by early March.

Lastly. if you need any advice, shoot me a PM.  I don't have many contacts left, but can see what I can do if you have particular places in mind.  Btw, my internships were, in order, Inverness Club, Whistling Straits, TPC Jasna Polana, TPC Jasna Polana.  Of the bunch, I would highly recommend Whistling Straits.  It is an absolutely top notch facility and great learning environment.

[Patrick Hodgdon]

Chris just summed it up extremely well but I will simply add that you should let the Head Pro in your application and interview (assuming you do one) you want to learn as much as possible and are willing to wokr harder than any other candidate. If it takes being the guy that works 6am-9pm to get the internship at the better club it will be worth it. Then if you get the gig reaffirm that with the Pro and ask him as many questions as you can about how to effectively run the club. You'll learn more than you ever thought you could.

Also while you are there befriend as many members as you possibly can and either get or research their e-mails. I landed two interships through caddying and it was also a caddying contact/relationship that got me the first interview at my current job in Commercial Real Estate. The more people that know you the better. If you go to the right club many of the members will be members elsewhere and could be a great way to get your 2nd and 3rd internships.

[Brett Waters]

Thanks for the advise guys. Right now, the biggest problem I'm having, is finding a place that actually wants an intern for just 3 months. I've contacted around 20-25 clubs. Several of these were open for interns, but they wanted only the most experienced, 6-month interns. The rest just were not hiring. From what I've heard through my internship coordinator, hardly any resorts are even willing to hire anybody at this time (and understandably so).

Could you guys give me some recommendations of professionals who are great to work under?

And could someone please tell me how golfing is in the desert (AZ or CA) over these summer months? Do many people play golf out there during this time?

[Peter Ferlicca]

Brett,

I worked out here in Palm Desert during the summer last year, and it will be my last summer in the Desert.  I would highly recommend NOT WORKING in the desert during the summer.  NO ONE plays either if you are at a private club, if you worked at Resort you might get some play, but it still is a ghost town.  I AM A YOUNG ASSISTANT GOLF PROFESSIONAL MYSELF, AND READING THIS THREAD MAKES YOU QUESTION IF WE PICKED THE RIGHT CAREER.

Peter F

[jeffwarne]

Brett,

I worked out here in Palm Desert during the summer last year, and it will be my last summer in the Desert.  I would highly recommend NOT WORKING in the desert during the summer.  NO ONE plays either if you are at a private club, if you worked at Resort you might get some play, but it still is a ghost town.  I AM A YOUNG ASSISTANT GOLF PROFESSIONAL MYSELF, AND READING THIS THREAD MAKES YOU QUESTION IF WE PICKED THE RIGHT CAREER.

Peter F

You might want to avoid working in New York, Boston, and Chicago in the winter as well

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