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Forrest Richardson

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The Rubbish of "Pro Golfer Designers"
« on: January 22, 2009, 08:16:46 PM »
DAILY MAIL |  Article from: The Daily Mail (London, England)
Article date: March 16, 2001   

MONTY GRABS FULL CREIT


Byline: NIGEL DEMPSTER

THE proud boast of Scotland's world No 6 golfer Colin Montgomerie that he personally designed the new Emirates Hills course in Dubai has shocked friends of the course's true designer — architect Desmond Muirhead, who lives in America on the West Coast.

Norwich-born Muirhead, 77, one the world's best-known golf course designers, was commissioned by Dubai Government minister Mohammed Alabar to create an entire golfing town in the desert near the Nad Al Sheba racecourse.

The £6 billion project includes luxury homes for 80,000 and four golf courses, one of which, costing £25 million, has already been constructed.

Says a friend of the veteran designer, who is credited with inventing the term 'golfing community': 'Montgomerie may be the front-man whose name is being used. But it is absolute rubbish to say he designed the course. He is a golfer and had no input whatsoever.

'It's like saying Pavarotti designed the Sydney Opera House.' This week, a Sunday rag ran a spread in which Montgomerie, 37, claimed to have designed the course, and asserted: 'I have an eye for it and it's something I will eventually become more deeply involved in.' He also claimed to have 12 more golf course designs on the go worldwide.

But Muirhead, from his home in Newport Beach, California, confirmed to me that he is the man entirely responsible for the new Dubai course, plus the housing development surrounding it.

Muirhead, who read engineering at Cambridge, followed by architecture and town planning at the University of Oregon, tells me: 'I am a great admirer of Colin Montgomerie as a golfer, but it would be silly to say he has designed this course. He is not an architect.'

'Colin had nothing to do with it, other than being what is known as the celebrity endorser. In fact, I am shocked to learn of his claim.'

------

OK. Perhaps I am a biased individual in this regard. But, aside from some of the true gentlemen in our business (who are, indeed, profressional golfers), there are very few professional golfers who actually perform golf course architectural work. I recall speaking directly with Desmond about this travesty of the truth — Desmond must have used the phrase "Pack of lies" twenty times during the short time we went back and forth on the raging trend of golf professionals getting into the design business. His frustration at the time was this very incident — Colin speaking to the media and, literally, assuming credit when Desmond told me he only visited the site once, and that was before any work had begun.

So, I ask you — What lies are you privy to in this regard? I am interested because I am currently writing a piece on the good, the bad and the ugly associated with professional names taking credit for golf course architecture when, possibly, it is not at all deserved.
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Ronald Montesano

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Re: The Rubbish of "Pro Golfer Designers"
« Reply #1 on: January 22, 2009, 08:44:59 PM »
Two words:  John Daly
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

paul cowley

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Re: The Rubbish of "Pro Golfer Designers"
« Reply #2 on: January 22, 2009, 09:02:44 PM »
Man, I'm going to send you some Advil to help you with the headache you'll get  from trying to determine to which enth degree of over lapped grey design area it takes to establish who did what, and why?

Have you lost your mind?

I have.
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Michael Blake

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Re: The Rubbish of "Pro Golfer Designers"
« Reply #3 on: January 22, 2009, 09:22:31 PM »
The course IS called 'The Montgomerie Course'

He must've designed it.  ;D





Forrest Richardson

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Re: The Rubbish of "Pro Golfer Designers"
« Reply #4 on: January 22, 2009, 09:26:28 PM »
All I can say about the Dubai story, is that I heard directly from Desmond — and, basically, "it was rubbish."

Now, Cowley — I do take (every so often) Advill PM. So, please send the correct brand and dosage. By the way, for the record, Paul lost his mind in 1971. But, I have been relegated to not tell that detail and so, have refrained.
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Melvyn Morrow

Re: The Rubbish of "Pro Golfer Designers"
« Reply #5 on: January 22, 2009, 10:40:03 PM »

Forrest

I can understand the frustration. I certainly do not understand Colin’s madness claiming he designed something that maybe clearly credited to another.

As you know I am slowly making a list of clubs and courses that have a connection with Old Tom. This is being broken down into clubs/course still in play, courses moved to new sites with no Old Tom input and closed course he was involved with. Plus I am looking at the courses survey and also opened by him.

I remember reading Paul Daley’s article on GCA.com some years ago in which he stated that some had taken credit for the works of Old Tom. This is all well and good, but a word of caution as in Old Tom’s case some modern observers have in error credited Old Tom with designs he did not do i.e. Brora, Skibo Castle, Hanger Hill and Machrie, but that was not done maliciously,  it was down to poor research and not the fault of Old Tom. Yet I have read one or two on this site make the claim that Old Tom did not do this or that, but their opinions are based either upon errors down to very poor research or deliberately trying to promote their own agendas.

The point is to have a true record of events which can stand the test of scrutiny. But be careful there are connections or information that may not be generally available to all seekers and being on the spot does make a tremendous difference in obtaining these important details.

There are those who make genuine errors, those who have their own agendas and those who have what appears to be the Colin Montgomerie madness if indeed he was not responsible for any of the design or alterations to the original design. I believe it is important to try and get a true record of events for the sake of the history of Golf.

Melvyn



Jeff_Brauer

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Re: The Rubbish of "Pro Golfer Designers"
« Reply #6 on: January 23, 2009, 12:11:23 AM »
Forrest,

You know my number.....
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Jim_Kennedy

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Re: The Rubbish of "Pro Golfer Designers"
« Reply #7 on: January 23, 2009, 03:39:09 AM »
Forrest,
Hasn't this changed for the better since 2001? If you are writing an article about this you must feel differently, but nowadays it seems (to me) that the respective contibutions of the architect and the pro golfer are more likely to be given their proper due, at least on sites like this.
...and don't you think that today there are more players, like Tom Lehman, who are willing to get out and learn how to play in the dirt?

I don't thinks it's right that Montgomerie took the credit, but who was it that let him do it....and why don't architect's object to this type of treatment up front?
 


"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Tony Ristola

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Re: The Rubbish of "Pro Golfer Designers"
« Reply #8 on: January 23, 2009, 05:57:36 AM »

I don't thinks it's right that Montgomerie took the credit, but who was it that let him do it....and why don't architect's object to this type of treatment up front?
 
Rubbish isn't a strong enough adjective.

I'd written an article about this in Paul Daley's Golf Arch. Vol 1 titled: Institutionalized Fraud, Prostituting the Royal and Ancient Game.

Architects, associations and the media have all played their roles in allowing this to snowball to laughable proportions.

It would be nice to have an accurate historical record about these things, but honesty only applies to playing the game, not the golf course building side.

The ASGCA has guidelines that touch on it, but seem to be all but ignored.
Why does it happen? Cash is King.

GUIDELINES FOR PROFESSIONAL CONDUCT
 
1.   A golf course architect shall not engage in conduct involving dishonesty, fraud, and deceit…or misrepresentation.
 
2.   A golf course architect shall not indulge in…exaggerated, misleading or false publicity.
    
7.    A golf course architect shall recognize the contributions of others…and shall not knowingly make false statements about their professional work…
 
Source: American Society of Golf Course Architects

Ally Mcintosh

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Re: The Rubbish of "Pro Golfer Designers"
« Reply #9 on: January 23, 2009, 06:22:19 AM »
I don't know if has changed for the better... Maybe in the States

I will give you the most glaring example in Europe:

A vast amount of the work that EGD / IMG do... As Designers for The European Tour, they are forever saddled with the Celebrity Designer... (Monty included)

(EDIT: please note my additional posts 63 & 66 on this - I do not place any blame on the architects in this case. It is down to the way that the courses are perceived by the media and golfing public when they are in play)
« Last Edit: January 25, 2009, 03:41:11 AM by Ally Mcintosh »

Brian Phillips

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Re: The Rubbish of "Pro Golfer Designers"
« Reply #10 on: January 23, 2009, 07:52:00 AM »
I don't know if has changed for the better... Maybe in the States

I will give you the most glaring example in Europe:

A vast amount of the work that EGD / IMG do... As Designers for The European Tour, they are forever saddled with the Celebrity Designer... (Monty included)
EGD always, always credit themselves and even name actual architect designing the course from their office.  They now use the wording "......golf course in association with Paul Lawrie" or whoever it may be.

EGD do not hide behind the Pro, they actually make sure that people know that it is a joint venture not a lie.  I cannot remember reading anywhere recently where EGD have not made sure their office get the credit they deserve. They may not have been as vocal in the start when they first set themselves up but they are now.

Stan Eby, Gary Johnston, Robin Hiseman and Ross McMurray are all good architects that receive the credit they deserve.

Bunkers, if they be good bunkers, and bunkers of strong character, refuse to be disregarded, and insist on asserting themselves; they do not mind being avoided, but they decline to be ignored - John Low Concerning Golf

Tim Liddy

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Re: The Rubbish of "Pro Golfer Designers"
« Reply #11 on: January 23, 2009, 07:52:13 AM »
Yearning for the day when golf courses are known not only for great strategic golf, but their environmental contributions (storm water control, surface water filtering, water recycling, etc.). Not marketing tools. No more “I” in golf course descriptions. It is about the golf course.

Geoff Shackelford
“A majority of people still think familiar names and big budgets translate to great golf, no matter how many examples there are saying otherwise. It’s why the game is in the mess it’s in and why so many of those courses are being redone within 10 to 15 years after opening. We are so far from realizing the game’s true potential through architecture that inspires.”


Adam Clayman

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Re: The Rubbish of "Pro Golfer Designers"
« Reply #12 on: January 23, 2009, 08:53:06 AM »
What is it about the real designers that allow others to get credit? 

Is it a lack of respect for the craft? The art? The work?

Are there any other disciplines where this practice is also standard operating procedure?
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

JESII

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Re: The Rubbish of "Pro Golfer Designers"
« Reply #13 on: January 23, 2009, 09:11:45 AM »
I think it goes to the front end of the job...would the designer have gotten the job on the front end if they had put their foot down for full credit after the fact? I don't know.

Tony Ristola

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Re: The Rubbish of "Pro Golfer Designers"
« Reply #14 on: January 23, 2009, 09:35:26 AM »
What is it about the real designers that allow others to get credit? 

Is it a lack of respect for the craft? The art? The work?

Are there any other disciplines where this practice is also standard operating procedure?
To question 1: My guess is $.

To question two: $ and lack of respect for the game. I include architecture as part of the the honor and integrity the game.

To see professionals, those entrusted with defending the game and setting an example (LOL) operate in this manner, is pretty disgusting. As for the tournament it's not like they're starving.

To question three: Haute Coutoure.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2009, 09:42:38 AM by Tony Ristola »

jeffwarne

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Re: The Rubbish of "Pro Golfer Designers"
« Reply #15 on: January 23, 2009, 09:50:35 AM »
Are there really people who would play a course BECAUSE it was Montgomerie designed? ??? ??? ???
I mean even Daly has some sort of strange public appeal
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

John_Cullum

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Re: The Rubbish of "Pro Golfer Designers"
« Reply #16 on: January 23, 2009, 09:51:20 AM »
Which do you think the owner/developer would prefer? It's their project, their money. They wanted a course that would sell. They chose Monty. Muirhead was the guy who got hired to do the dirt work for the "Montgomery Course" and he knew it at the time he made the deal. Should he not have have kept his mouth shut?
"We finally beat Medicare. "

Melvyn Morrow

Re: The Rubbish of "Pro Golfer Designers"
« Reply #17 on: January 23, 2009, 10:05:49 AM »

Do we not all have the right to know the truth, is that not what many strived for in life and death struggles on a daily basis? Are we all that vane? Why not just re right history as the communist did after their revolution and bury our heads in the sand.   

The problem ultimately is apathy which starts and finishes with the golfer and the clubs. If the golfers were really interested many of the clubs would then be bothered to check into their own history thus resolving this problem once and for all.

Lets look at this site alone, apathy is strong even here a GCA site. I have monitored historical topics and at times they do not get the same number of hits as some O/T subject. History is regrettable not important to the majority of golfers and this I firmly believe is reflected in the total ignorance they show when on a course. The idea of an architect/designer never registers and most don’t see let alone understand GCA in any of its forms.

This is certainly not a failing on behalf of the architects or designers, but in my opinion that of the club for not advising the golfer of its own history. I would like to each club display a record of its history from the original designer, the number of holes it started with, as well as the changes and course features to look out for. If the novice Golfer has to learn, what better way, particularity if a Pro or Celebrity makes a positive comment on any part of the course. We are back to education, it needs to be explained to allow the majority to understand the true nature and challenges that awaits them when they venture out on to the Fairways and Greens.

During my research through various newspapers, magazines, local history societies and numerous family archives of the great and humble I have found snippets of information on many clubs in GB. On checking the club’s web site I notice a very basic history, yet they do not know their original designer apart from perhaps the number of holes the course started with. I have passed on many records from the formation of clubs, the course being designed by whoever right through to the opening of the course, including those present at the Opening Ceremony to the scores of the players playing the first official match. Yet if 50 % respond with a thank you, I consider myself very lucky. A recent example was a course in Wales, who knew that they had a 9 hole course and that seem to be it until it was upgraded between the wars, yet I had easily found the details of the formation, the designer and all the opening details, the original designer was Willie Campbell, I passed all this to the club months ago and have followed it up but have not had a courtesy of an acknowledgement or reply.  Showing to me the total lack of interest on behalf of the management of the club - alas this is not rare and is very common. If the club shows very little interest what hope is there for the average golfer to know let alone understand how his course started and evolved.

Regrettable apathy does have a strong hold on the human race, so I am a keen believer in the clubs knowing, holding and displaying prominently their own history.  We are all part and makers of history and therefore should show some interest IMHO.

Melvyn


John_Cullum

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Re: The Rubbish of "Pro Golfer Designers"
« Reply #18 on: January 23, 2009, 10:06:35 AM »
Are there really people who would play a course BECAUSE it was Montgomerie designed? ??? ??? ???
I mean even Daly has some sort of strange public appeal

It is a 2001 article, there was still hope back then
"We finally beat Medicare. "

John_Cullum

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Re: The Rubbish of "Pro Golfer Designers"
« Reply #19 on: January 23, 2009, 10:10:35 AM »

A recent example was a course in Wales, who knew that they had a 9 hole course and that seem to be it until it was upgraded between the wars, yet I had easily found the details of the formation, the designer and all the opening details, the original designer was Willie Campbell, I passed all this to the club months ago and have followed it up but have not had a courtesy of an acknowledgement or reply.  Showing to me the total lack of interest on behalf of the management of the club - alas this is not rare and is very common. If the club shows very little interest what hope is there for the average golfer to know let alone understand how his course started and evolved.

It's not apathy Melvin, people just don't care. You are hoping against hope
"We finally beat Medicare. "

Rory Connaughton

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Re: The Rubbish of "Pro Golfer Designers"
« Reply #20 on: January 23, 2009, 10:14:34 AM »
Monty takes credit for the "Montgomerie" Course at Carton House and the club's web site also refers to him as the designer.  Is this accurate?

jeffwarne

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Re: The Rubbish of "Pro Golfer Designers"
« Reply #21 on: January 23, 2009, 10:16:57 AM »
Monty takes credit for the "Montgomerie" Course at Carton House and the club's web site also refers to him as the designer.  Is this accurate?

It has a male version of a Mae West knockoff hole ;)
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Melvyn Morrow

Re: The Rubbish of "Pro Golfer Designers"
« Reply #22 on: January 23, 2009, 10:39:04 AM »
John you said

"It's not apathy Melvin, people just don't care. You are hoping against hope"

Hope, no its not that John, I just pass on the information its the apathy that does the rest, I don't believe that they have as yet reached the care stage.

Melvyn

Rich Goodale

Re: The Rubbish of "Pro Golfer Designers"
« Reply #23 on: January 23, 2009, 10:42:31 AM »
Are there really people who would play a course BECAUSE it was Montgomerie designed? ??? ??? ???
I mean even Daly has some sort of strange public appeal

Dubai was and is primarily a British tourist/expat destination.  Monty had and still has cachet with the average British golfer, for whatever reason.....

John_Cullum

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Re: The Rubbish of "Pro Golfer Designers"
« Reply #24 on: January 23, 2009, 10:51:22 AM »
As I have stated before, I could escort Tom Doak and Bill Coore through the dining room, lounge and grill room of most any golf club and not a half dozen people would have any knowledge about either of them. If I parade Ben Crenshaw and Colin Montgomery around, we'll draw more attention than we can handle.
"We finally beat Medicare. "

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