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Kirk Gill

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: CHARMLESS COURSES
« Reply #100 on: January 07, 2010, 05:39:05 PM »
I still can't see how TOC can be considered a charming course, for all the reasons I originally enumerated.

So I went and checked out dictionary.com (I'm a geek that way, amongst others), and for the adjective charming they list two definitions - "pleasing; delightful," and "using charm; exercising magic power."

Maybe TOC is charming after all !
"After all, we're not communists."
                             -Don Barzini

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: CHARMLESS COURSES
« Reply #101 on: January 07, 2010, 05:39:37 PM »
Bill,

Buda at Hoylake was before my time, and maybe after a few rounds my opinion would be different? However, there are two things which didn't help my experience.

Firstly, we played off the yellow tees about 2 months after Tiger's Open win, so the course was very firm and fast but also 1,000 yards shorter. So I was looking forward to taking on the 14th (usually played as 12) where Tiger holed his long iron for a two after laying up with an iron between the bunkers, however from a forward tee it was a driver over the bunkers and a flick with a wedge?

The other problem, I just hinted at. We played the holes as they were in the Open, so we teed off on 17 and the famous 1st with the cop and out of bounds right was our third. This though means every time I discuss the course with someone I have no idea which hole is being discussed...

Having said that I remember the 10th and 13th (sorry, 8th and 11th) as a great 5 and 3 in the dunes, so perhaps on another play I would start to love it more, and maybe see a bit more charm?

Cheers,

James

We were there not long after you, October 2006.  The course had greened up nicely and was still pretty firm although we were rained on pretty hard while there.  We played off tees that must have been back of the ones you had to play but not back with the tigers.

I have the same problem with the hole numbering, we were still on the Open routing, and I still have to convert the hole numbers in my head.

I really liked all the holes but the stretch of #7-13 was really great.

On the par 5 #10 (our routing), Bobby Jones was just short left in 2 and made a 7 chilly dipping his way up the slope.  Jones quotes Bernardo Darwin in "Down the Fairway," Darwin saying a little old lady with a croquet mallet could have bested Jones' score by a shot or two.  That was in the 1930 Open during the year of the Slam.

That's the kind of thing that I have to include in my appreciation of a golf course!  ;D

David_Madison

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: CHARMLESS COURSES
« Reply #102 on: January 07, 2010, 07:10:29 PM »
Baltusrol Lower - no charm; Baltusrol Upper - loaded with charm

jim_lewis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: CHARMLESS COURSES
« Reply #103 on: January 07, 2010, 07:53:13 PM »
I have probably made this comment here before.

Carnoustie reminds me of my high school physics teacher. She was stern, humorless, and not very attractive. Wore no makeup. She tolerated no nonsense, and even the boys who were known to cut up in other classes would not dare risk it in her class. She tolerated only the best performance from her students and had no patience for those who didn't belong in her class. Best teacher I ever had. I loved her. The only teacher I have maintained a friendship with for nearly 50 years.

Bill:
#2 is charmless for anyone who doesn't enjoy getting their ass kicked.

Jim Lewis
"Crusty"  Jim
Freelance Curmudgeon

James Boon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: CHARMLESS COURSES
« Reply #104 on: January 08, 2010, 04:20:01 AM »
Bill,

Buda at Hoylake was before my time, and maybe after a few rounds my opinion would be different? However, there are two things which didn't help my experience.

Firstly, we played off the yellow tees about 2 months after Tiger's Open win, so the course was very firm and fast but also 1,000 yards shorter. So I was looking forward to taking on the 14th (usually played as 12) where Tiger holed his long iron for a two after laying up with an iron between the bunkers, however from a forward tee it was a driver over the bunkers and a flick with a wedge?

The other problem, I just hinted at. We played the holes as they were in the Open, so we teed off on 17 and the famous 1st with the cop and out of bounds right was our third. This though means every time I discuss the course with someone I have no idea which hole is being discussed...

Having said that I remember the 10th and 13th (sorry, 8th and 11th) as a great 5 and 3 in the dunes, so perhaps on another play I would start to love it more, and maybe see a bit more charm?

Cheers,

James

We were there not long after you, October 2006.  The course had greened up nicely and was still pretty firm although we were rained on pretty hard while there.  We played off tees that must have been back of the ones you had to play but not back with the tigers.

I have the same problem with the hole numbering, we were still on the Open routing, and I still have to convert the hole numbers in my head.

I really liked all the holes but the stretch of #7-13 was really great.

On the par 5 #10 (our routing), Bobby Jones was just short left in 2 and made a 7 chilly dipping his way up the slope.  Jones quotes Bernardo Darwin in "Down the Fairway," Darwin saying a little old lady with a croquet mallet could have bested Jones' score by a shot or two.  That was in the 1930 Open during the year of the Slam.

That's the kind of thing that I have to include in my appreciation of a golf course!  ;D

Bill,

I can feel I'm being drawn in... You've reminded me of the Bobby Jones scenario on 8, er 10, no its 8!  ::) I do love that sort of thing and its the sort of things which do help with a courses charm offensive. Now I think of it I'm sure I could start a pasionate discussion on the finer points of the course, the club, its history etc, but I can't help but feel that by tomorrow I'll have forgotten all about it? Keep trying to draw me in though...

Cheers,

James
2023 Highlights: Hollinwell, Brora, Parkstone, Cavendish, Hallamshire, Sandmoor, Moortown, Elie, Crail, St Andrews (Himalayas & Eden), Chantilly, M, Hardelot Les Pins

"It celebrates the unadulterated pleasure of being in a dialogue with nature while knocking a ball round on foot." Richard Pennell

Jay Flemma

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: CHARMLESS COURSES
« Reply #105 on: January 08, 2010, 11:38:17 AM »
Everything at Turning Stone is charmless.
Mackenzie, MacRayBanks, Maxwell, Doak, Dye, Strantz. @JayGolfUSA, GNN Radio Host of Jay's Plays www.cybergolf.com/writerscorner

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: CHARMLESS COURSES
« Reply #106 on: January 08, 2010, 11:47:06 AM »
This thread is a year old, and I may have answered, but charm is an underrated factor in golf courses. I think I could have melded my topic on great courses not well liked into this one had I remembered it.

In general, I think tough courses with little beauty rarely have charm.  I think big scale courses have less charm than smaller, intimate courses (thereby taking out many modern courses from the charming category)

I think I would be very pleased if the reviews of my courses said they were charming, over even having them in the top 100.  Would the comment "you could play it every day" be something akin to charming?
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Anthony Butler

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: CHARMLESS COURSES
« Reply #107 on: January 08, 2010, 03:31:52 PM »
From my experience, Muirfield as a golf club and total experience is loaded with charm, but it's tough to remember indiv. holes that have much. Carnoustie as a whole seems a little more bleak esp. with the huge (and charmless) hotel structure behind the 18th. But a few of the holes (i.e. 5th) have some charm. Interestingly, it's the holes that provide a break from the 470 yd par 4s lined with 2ft rough which stand out.

Someone mentioned Winged Foot. Does history = charm? If not, the 10th with the tee right next to the clubhouse and the green just short of "some guy's bedroom" is rather beguiling.
Next!

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: CHARMLESS COURSES
« Reply #108 on: January 08, 2010, 03:44:18 PM »
My wife will never be accused of being charming, but she loves me and carries out every task in life with awesome passion.  I believe that if she were charming, she would be masking something from me.  I have no interest in describing any golf experience as "charming."  There are many adjectives that I would use that might reach the same point as the contributors to this thread, but words like "charming" and "quaint" are not they.
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: CHARMLESS COURSES
« Reply #109 on: January 08, 2010, 03:44:59 PM »
This thread is a year old, and I may have answered, but charm is an underrated factor in golf courses. I think I could have melded my topic on great courses not well liked into this one had I remembered it.

In general, I think tough courses with little beauty rarely have charm.  I think big scale courses have less charm than smaller, intimate courses (thereby taking out many modern courses from the charming category)

I think I would be very pleased if the reviews of my courses said they were charming, over even having them in the top 100.  Would the comment "you could play it every day" be something akin to charming?

Or is it that you could play them every day because they were charming?

I was pretty much charmed by the Wilderness, my only Brauer design to date, really liked the short par 4s on the back nine and that Biarritz green.  I do love all the quirky stuff which in my mind = charm.   I also liked the absence of real estate and the walkability.

Eric Smith

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: CHARMLESS COURSES
« Reply #110 on: January 08, 2010, 04:01:24 PM »
"An ideal or classical golf course demands variety, personality, and above all, the charm of romance."

Charles Blair Macdonald, 1928

Carl Johnson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: CHARMLESS COURSES
« Reply #111 on: January 08, 2010, 04:15:52 PM »
IMHO, neither Murfield nor Carnoustie (the golf courses) have charm.  The Postage Stamp helps Royal Troon, but much of the rest of the course is charmless.

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: CHARMLESS COURSES
« Reply #112 on: January 08, 2010, 06:41:20 PM »
"An ideal or classical golf course demands variety, personality, and above all, the charm of romance."

Charles Blair Macdonald, 1928


Not sure what the intent of this quote is...I bet they caught him in his cups.  Variety, I can live with.  Personality begins the b-s process of  personifying a golf course, a process that is completed with the charm of romance.  Y'all lucky I found Jesus!
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Carl Johnson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: CHARMLESS COURSES
« Reply #113 on: January 08, 2010, 06:55:43 PM »
"An ideal or classical golf course demands variety, personality, and above all, the charm of romance."

Charles Blair Macdonald, 1928


Not sure what the intent of this quote is...I bet they caught him in his cups.  Variety, I can live with.  Personality begins the b-s process of  personifying a golf course, a process that is completed with the charm of romance.  Y'all lucky I found Jesus!
Where was that?

Eric Smith

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: CHARMLESS COURSES
« Reply #114 on: January 08, 2010, 07:04:15 PM »
Carl,


I found that quote on Mark Brown's website http://www.markbrownandassociates.com/ a few years ago.  He's a former gcaer who passed away too soon.  His business site is still up however and you can see his passion for gca is very evident throughout.

The CBM quote was on one of the pages in there...

Carl Johnson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: CHARMLESS COURSES
« Reply #115 on: January 09, 2010, 10:19:15 AM »
Carl,


I found that quote on Mark Brown's website http://www.markbrownandassociates.com/ a few years ago.  He's a former gcaer who passed away too soon.  His business site is still up however and you can see his passion for gca is very evident throughout.

The CBM quote was on one of the pages in there...

Eric, Thanks, but my intent was to ask Ron where he found Jesus, and the next question would be whether he's found his putting stroke.  I should not have asked the first question or the second, so now I'd like to pull them both off the table.