[PThomas]

Oakmont?? (i haven't been there)

or did the tree removal make it (more?) charming??

[Melvyn Morrow]

Gentlemen

Please when you play in England or any other part of GB&I speak plainly and honestly, however if you want to follow in the footsteps of William Wallace by being hung, drawn and quartered, continue the criticisms of our hallow places where our heroes have walked the walk and played the eternal game.

Caislean Credi (Hill of Credulity) not only survives at Scone Palace but it can also be seen by the true believers on many of our courses. The Stone of Destiny is what you face when you do not bow to the beauty and CHARM of our courses. Failure to observe and appreciate these charms may see you resting for eternity in our Moot Hill at Perth.

Are you feeling lucky, willing to face your hill of credulity, accept your destiny and willing to gamble, all for a word?

Can’t stay any longer off have an another appointment with my Rage Management therapist.

Melvyn  

[Tim Pitner]

Sean,
For lack of charm I suggest Royal Lytham - great test of golf, but it's hard to love it; West Lancs - good course but bleak; The Belfry - which is testing enough, but still feels like a potato field; The Oxfordshire - just a blot on the landscape, however probing it may be; Prestatyn - very good golf course, but an unattractive place; Royal Dublin, perhaps?

I happen to think Royal Dublin is full of charm.... Playing out and back along Bull Island after crossing the old wooden bridge to a lovely clubhouse...

There are more charming courses certainly... But I don't think it deserves to be on the list.

I concur with Ally.  Royal Dublin's flat course and industrial backdrop isn't for everyone, but I was charmed by the presence of an old-fashioned links in the middle of such a large city (as well as by the elements Ally mentioned).  The extremely friendly staff didn't hurt either. 

[Tom Huckaby]

Hmmmmmmmmm

I like the way Rich looks at this... that is, it's not so much quirk, or if a course particularly makes one smile, but rather does it charm?

And to that end, I believe Torrey Pines is charming.  Heck there are only so many courses in which one can retrace the footsteps of the greats, particulary recent footsteps... and although Torrey is a very difficult golf course, I have to believe if I played it again soon, I would be charmed.  There are some very difficult shots to be played there (from what I can see - haven't played the current version) and I'd enjoy tackling them and stacking my meager self up to Tiger, et al.  On top of that, the views are lovely.  But mainly it would be in the play there... no way could I play it like they do - I have not even close to the skill required - but trying to find away to get around in a decent score would to me be very fun.  In this way, it would be charming.

And the same goes for Bethpage Black.... and Oakmont... and Medinah... and Olympic Lake... and other courses normally thought of as long brutish slogs.

Of course this is also not the ONLY way a course can charm.  I believe Kalen describes Pacific Grove Muni very well in this respect - I am charmed by that course also, for just those reasons.  Every time I play there I wonder why it's been so long, why I don't play it more often.  That course most definitely has charmed me... and it's 5500 yards at most and surely has never and will never host the pros.   

But Pebble Beach to me is more "charming" than Pacific Grove muni.  And overseas, Muirfield is thus more charming to me than North Berwick.

All are fun to play.  All make me smile.  But I like looking at "charm" this way.

ONE CAVEAT - to me also "more charming" may or may not equal "better."

TH

[PThomas]

i'm in the  "TPines as being charmless" camp

[Tom Huckaby]

i'm in the  "TPines as being charmless" camp

Even if we define it as I have, basing it on what Rich said?

If so... you have become quite jaded, my friend.

 

[Peter Pallotta]

Niall - thanks, but I dare say you've probably played many more charming courses than I have, and so you'd know much better than me. That way of defining charm came to my mind because it was Sean who started the thread, and all of the "tier-two" English courses that Sean has profiled here over the years strike me as the epitome of charm in their simple and understated playability. In other words, and to push the analogies too far, those tier-two courses are not pompous and preening, like Olivier; nor dour and self-obsessed, like Mason; nor self-consciously simple, like Tracy; or angry and prickly like Douglas.  They SEEM (and that's the trick, and the skill of the architect) to be utterly comfortable in their own skins, and not to be trying very hard at all -- hence the similarity to Grant and Sims etc.

Peter

[Joe Perches]

I can't find much charm in SoCal municipal courses like Woodley Lakes or Victoria.
Flat, wide, bland, epitome of dull and charmless.

[Tom Huckaby]

Niall - thanks, but I dare say you've probably played many more charming courses than I have, and so you'd know much better than me. That way of defining charm came to my mind because it was Sean who started the thread, and all of the "tier-two" English courses that Sean has profiled here over the years strike me as the epitome of charm in their simple and understated playability. In other words, and to push the analogies too far, those tier-two courses are not pompous and preening, like Olivier; nor dour and self-obsessed, like Mason; nor self-consciously simple, like Tracy; or angry and prickly like Douglas.  They SEEM (and that's the trick, and the skill of the architect) to be utterly comfortable in their own skins, and not to be trying very hard at all -- hence the similarity to Grant and Sims etc.

Peter

I rather like the way you've put all this as well, Peter.

But my opinions stand...

I'd still say Muirfield (definitely tier I, championship test) is more "charming" than North Berwick - the former charms and bewitches, the latter makes one smile but provides less magic.



TH

[PThomas]

i'm in the  "TPines as being charmless" camp

Even if we define it as I have, basing it on what Rich said?

If so... you have become quite jaded, my friend.

 

i must still disagree o my wise west coast friend

TP just did nothing for me..besides disappointing me..(NOTE- i played it about 10 years ago)

[Tom Huckaby]

Would it still do nothing for you if you played it tomorrow?

None of the recent history there would have any effect on you?

I can't believe that's true.

Interesting the course did nothing for you 10 years ago though.  Perhaps you had too high expectations?  You take no notice / receive no joy from ocean views?

I always enjoyed playing there myself.  Now I too haven't played it in well over 10 years... but man I liked it a lot as it was before.  I have to believe adding the recent Tiger factor, I'd be charmed again.

To each his own....

TH

[PThomas]

Would it still do nothing for you if you played it tomorrow?

IT WOULD BE A ROUND OF GOLF IN NICE WEATHER! ..BUT IT IS BY NO MEANS A GREAT GOLF COURSE...MAYBE ITS A LOT BETTER SINCE THE CHANGES???

None of the recent history there would have any effect on you?

I GUESS SOME. I'LL ADMIT..TIGERS HEROICS ON THE BACK NINE ON SATURDAY...BUT WHEN I PLAYED IT IT WAS LIKE TAKING  AN OKAY PARKLAND COURSE AND DROPPING IT NEAR  THE OCEAN, AND NOT EVEN CLOSE ENOUGH TO AFFECT MY PLAY
I can't believe that's true.

  Perhaps you had too high expectations? 
THAT IS VERY PROBABLY TRUE
You take no notice / receive no joy from ocean views?

I DO...BUT I CAN GO TO BANDON AND PLAY REALLY GOOD COURSES NEAR THE OCEAN!

To each his own....

DITTO BUD!

[Tom Huckaby]

Now Paul, there is no need to shout.

 

You must have played it on a foggy, windless day if the ocean had no effect on you.  Either that or you have taken a Muccian approach to the game I didn't think you had.

Outside of that, note I am not saying it's the world's greatest golf course.  In fact I've made no opinion as to the overall quality of it whatsoever.

I just do find it to be "charming" as I believe that word is defined.  The course would most definitely charm me as it is today, for all the reasons stated.

But of course all of those at Bandon do as well.

In any case, my point was not to argue for Torrey Pines being great, but to argue against it being "charmless".  I suppose some might find it to be such... but not those who have any sense of history, or appreciation for views.

Which of course to me is another way of saying "any golfer in his right mind"... but no need to go down that road again.

 

[PThomas]

Now Paul, there is no need to shout.

 

You must have played it on a foggy, windless day if the ocean had no effect on you.  Either that or you have taken a Muccian approach to the game I didn't think you had.

Outside of that, note I am not saying it's the world's greatest golf course.  In fact I've made no opinion as to the overall quality of it whatsoever.

I just do find it to be "charming" as I believe that word is defined.  The course would most definitely charm me as it is today, for all the reasons stated.

But of course all of those at Bandon do as well.

In any case, my point was not to argue for Torrey Pines being great, but to argue against it being "charmless".  I suppose some might find it to be such... but not those who have any sense of history, or appreciation for views.

Which of course to me is another way of saying "any golfer in his right mind"... but no need to go down that road again.

 

not shouting Huck, but since i can't do that Mucci - different color thing thats my way of differentiating my words from yours

and perhaps i have a bit of Mucci in me! (but not the ND fan part, thats for sure! .....but as you stated i think i had built up TP in my mind too much and was thusly quite let down...

hmmmm, maybe this if i mention what i think is a charming course , maybe that would express my opinion better

TOC looks quite charming, set into the town itself

Crystal Downs has some charm, esp in the fall: a  little building up on  a hill, a course whose challenge does not come from brutish length

Dunes Club is also charming...an even tinier building, a very walkable/intimate course with its pick your own tee markers on each hole thing going for it

any clearer?

[Tom Huckaby]

That is much clearer.  You seem to be defining "charming" much differently than I am.  Note that I too find TOC to be very charming - both how I define it and how you seem to.  Haven't been to the other two.

TH

[Sean_A]

the charming and tasteful Sean Arble.   

Sean?  Charming? 

You haven't played with him, have you?

Pietro

I am afraid Mark has my number.  I will certainly buy you a drink, but I am no charmer. 

While I could never in my wildest dreams think Muirfield outcharms North Berwick, I am still intrigued by the idea that folks could think a straight shooting, no nonsense guy like Muirfield could be considered charming.  One of the characteristics that I find appealing about charming people is they rarely ask much of you - it is always a pleasure to be around them.  The same could be said in relation to golf courses.  Championship courses have many wonderful qualities, but in general and imo, charm is not one of them.  Championship courses ask far too much of the golfer without giving much back in return unless that golfer can answer on demand those back breaking and unrelenting questions.  That in a nutshell is the crux of my definition of charmless. 

While I am here I will nominate another for the category.  A course I have great respect for, would like to see again, but in the end, I could never love; Portmarnock. 

Ciao

[Tom Huckaby]

Sean:

This is a very interesting question.

Because you see, I truly believe you and I look at golf courses quite similarly.

I am just not ready to call a place like Muirfield "charmless".  It charms me, for reasons already stated.  And if you know the courses Joe Perches mentioned earlier in SoCal, well THAT is what "charmless" means to me.  We have equivalents here in NorCal for sure.

As for which is more "charming" between N. Berwick and Muirfield, I just have to go with how Rich explained this:  N. Berwick does indeed make me smile, but Muirfield charms me more.  And it does have to do with overcoming a challenge... see, Muirfield does ask hard questions.  But if you get a few right, it's bewitching.  Matching one's self up against the successes and failures of the greats who have preceeded you there is beguiling as well.  The questions at N. Berwick are just plain not as hard... overall... nor can one match up against the greats... not so obviously anyway....

Just do note the relativity of it all... N. Berwick remains "charming" for sure to me.  Good god compared to the courses here previously mentioned, it is the gold standard... in the same way that Pacific Grove Muni is also charming.

TH

[Sean_A]

Sean:

This is a very interesting question.

Because you see, I truly believe you and I look at golf courses quite similarly.

I am just not ready to call a place like Muirfield "charmless".  It charms me, for reasons already stated.  And if you know the courses Joe Perches mentioned earlier in SoCal, well THAT is what "charmless" means to me.  We have equivalents here in NorCal for sure.

As for which is more "charming" between N. Berwick and Muirfield, I just have to go with how Rich explained this:  N. Berwick does indeed make me smile, but Muirfield charms me more.  And it does have to do with overcoming a challenge... see, Muirfield does ask hard questions.  But if you get a few right, it's bewitching.  The questions at N. Berwick are just plain not as hard... overall.

Just do note the relativity of it all... N. Berwick remains "charming" for sure to me.  Good god compared to the courses here previously mentioned, it is the gold standard... in the same way that Pacific Grove Muni is also charming.

TH

AwsHuckster

I know where you are coming from, but I was trying to keep this conversation limited to the canon of great courses, many of which are championship courses.

Perhaps I would describe Muirfield as an engaging, straight up, tax paying, proper chap.  In fact, as I said earlier, I can't really find a flaw in the course, but that isn't nearly the same thing as charming. 

While I am here I have a nomination for a great charmer; Woking.

Ciao

[Tom Huckaby]

Sean:

I guess I look at it differently, or perhaps get more star-struck than you do.

Because I'd agree that Muirfield is an engaging, straight up, tax paying, proper chap.  But I'd also say he's all those things and well... Winston Churchill (if that works...I am trying to think of a non-offensive Englishman - oh my some might crack up at this choice)....

Anyway what I mean is... meeting Churchill and conversing/debating with him would certainly thrill - and yes CHARM - me... although one would not think of him as an engaging personality.

In any case I get you wanting to keep this in the canon of great courses.  It's just tough for me to call ANY of those "charmless."  Some are more charming than others, for sure.

TH

[Brent Hutto]

I played Formby the day before and the day after my round at Royal Birkdale. No doubt Birkdale is the better course by almost any measure having to do with good shots rewarded, bad ones punished, appropriate mixture of penalties for various errors, all the usual criteria. But any charm it presumably once had (what with being sited in such a magnificant dunescape) has been whittled away and submerged in the continuing process of keeping the course up to date for each generation of Open Championship contestants.

Conversely, I found Formby quite the charmer. Easier yes, but no pushover especially some of the holes in the middle of the round. Less consistently excellent as well with a few shots and a couple of holes of no particular distinction unlike Birkdale which is chock full of mostly very "fair" challenges from start to finish. But two rounds at Formby makes me long for a third whereas one round at Birkdale made me equal parts glad for having had the opportunity to play there and glad not to have to play it again right away.

Not to imply that Formby is the most charming course in my experience. I can think of several others that top it in that regard. But the comparison seemed apt for two courses of the same vintage situated on basically the same bit of geography.

[Tom Huckaby]

I played Formby the day before and the day after my round at Royal Birkdale. No doubt Birkdale is the better course by almost any measure having to do with good shots rewarded, bad ones punished, appropriate mixture of penalties for various errors, all the usual criteria. But any charm it presumably once had (what with being sited in such a magnificant dunescape) has been whittled away and submerged in the continuing process of keeping the course up to date for each generation of Open Championship contestants.

Conversely, I found Formby quite the charmer. Easier yes, but no pushover especially some of the holes in the middle of the round. Less consistently excellent as well with a few shots and a couple of holes of no particular distinction unlike Birkdale which is chock full of mostly very "fair" challenges from start to finish. But two rounds at Formby makes me long for a third whereas one round at Birkdale made me equal parts glad for having had the opportunity to play there and glad not to have to play it again right away.

Not to imply that Formby is the most charming course in my experience. I can think of several others that top it in that regard. But the comparison seemed apt for two courses of the same vintage situated on basically the same bit of geography.

Wow.  You and i could not possibly look at this more differently, Brent.  At least on the surface.

I loved each and every bit of Birkdale.  I surely found no "fair" challenges there - not as we find such over here anyway.  I felt the presence of the champion ghosts who went there before me.

I would call Birkdale charming without a doubt.  I finished it and relished another chance... one that I never got... but I'd go there again in a heartbeat.

It kicked my butt sideways btw, from the visitor (short) tees.  I just loved every bit of the butt-kicking.

Never been to Formby.  I'm sure I'd love it.  I do so love Cruden Bay, N. Berwick, all of the other so-called "Tier II" courses.  Just in terms of being absolutely charmed... that tended to happen more on the championship courses.  And note this doesn't mean I liked them more or consider them "better"... just sticking strictly to which "charmed" me.... well... the magic was greater at the championship tests, as greater questions were asked.

TH

[Brent Hutto]

Tom,

To expand slightly on my use of "fair" on the day I played there there was little rough enroaching on the playing corridors so off the tee it took a pretty bad shot to have anything other than a fairway-ish lie for your second shot (from the visitor tees of course). What low-cut rough was there was maybe an inch or so deep although thick and firm. It rained while we were on the back nine and that might have made missing the fairway more problematic but from memory there was less of the rough in play than on some of the earlier holes, so I got to play from dry rough and then wet fairway if that makes any sense.

Approach shots were often a whole 'nother story. It wasn't too very far offline from many of the greens that there was knee-deep junk and little ditches/burns/whatever water hazards totally in play for a shot left or right but pin high or a little short. That was where all of my stroke were lost (playing with a 20-ish handicap I failed to break 100 due to two sleeves of balls lost in those situations).  And the bunkers fronting many green were ball gobblers with a gravimetric field of up to 40 yards in various directions. But...and here's the fair part...if you chose wisely between a) taking enough club on approach shots you were going to hit plus or minus 10 yards from straight vs. b) clubbing down to leave the ball short of the bunkers, thereby also taking the lateral junk out of play...there just weren't big numbers to be had if you played conservatively. A hacker's version of the Todd Hamilton strategy would work wonderfully at Birkdale.

And the fairways were so perfect and generally level and the greens so large that even on a breezy day there were plenty of shots where caution was not needed. From the middle of the fairway with a middle iron there were plenty of holes where I just reared back and hit the ball up onto the green and had perfectly simple two-putt opportunities.

My only point of comparison in Open courses is seeing (but not playing) Royal St. George's. To my mind, there's no just taking what that course gives you. It is not particularly "fair" and there's long grass everywhere which you absolutely must take on, generally at uncomfortable angles, to play any semblance of a competitive round. And the greens are not as large or receptive as Birkdales. So by Sandwich standards, Birkdale seems almost an American-style walk in the park especially comparing the tee shots. I can only speculate that when I get to play at Sandwich one day it might "charm" me into accepting my ass-whooping. At Birkdale I felt that a few really bad approach shots early in the round cost me a decent score that was there for the taking. In my own contrary manner, I begrudge lost balls and high scores less at a course I perceive as "killer" than I do one I perceive as "fair".

[Tom Huckaby]

Brent:

Many thanks for the explanation.  My experience at Birkdale was wholly different; it was windy and raining and the rough was high.  "Fair" was not a word that came to mind.

That being said, I would agree that in general Birkdale could be seen as among the more "American" of the Open rota courses.  So I get ya.

I'd just never say it lacked any charm.  Not for me.

TH

[Brent Hutto]

Now that I'm rolling, let me try to dissect what I think of as "charm" and why I did not find it to apply overmuch to Royal Birkdale. When I get "charmed" by a golf course that means for whatever reason it entices me to spend an extended period of time outside my usual expectations, self-criticisms and habits of mind and attitude. In other words, if a round of golf feels nothing at all like a round at my home course or at any random place I might play "my usual game" I tend to attribute that to the course being a "charming" one.

During my round at Birkdale, aside from the purely wonderful sensation of hitting shots off that perfect turf and the general euphoria that comes from links conditions (including a fair breeze) I felt like I was grinding out as many good holes as possible much the same as at any round anywhere. Now I know that says as much about my own execrable self-limiting way of "enjoying" the game as it does about the golf course but I do on occasion get taken out of my usual self by visiting certain golf courses. In that regard Alwoodley was perfectly charming, I felt like our days there were part of a better and far more enjoyable pastime than mere "golf". Formby had a bit of that as did the little bit I saw of Ganton (which is charming in spades by my reckoning and I'll bet Andy L. and Mark B. agree).

So anyway, that make "charming" or "charmless" a highly individualistic matter and I suppose for a one-time visitor it is also subject to vagaries of mood or situation on that particular day. But from what I've seen of Muirfield it is not hard to imagine a day there falling more into familiar patterns of experience than into transcendent or uplifting ones (lunch excepted of course).

P.S. We played holes (IIRC) fifteen, sixteen and the first couple of many shots on seventeen during a 3-club wind accompanied by a torrential downpour. There had been wind all day and some lighter rain earlier in the back nine but that brief encounter with the sharp end of the links weather stick was just about all we'd care to take. The guy I got paired up with that day hits it a lot longer than me and on seventeen directly into that wind and rain he couldn't even think about going for the green in three or even laying up to wedge range in three for that matter. A half-hour was plenty of that.

[Tom Huckaby]

I think you nailed it, Brent.

When I get "charmed" by a golf course that means for whatever reason it entices me to spend an extended period of time outside my usual expectations, self-criticisms and habits of mind and attitude. In other words, if a round of golf feels nothing at all like a round at my home course or at any random place I might play "my usual game" I tend to attribute that to the course being a "charming" one.

I couldn't agree more.

I just found that all that happened -  A LOT - for me at each of Birkdale and Muirfield.  Neither was sure as heck Kansas any more for this Dorothy.  On top of that, as Open sites I was feeling the ghosts.. and being jazzed by the challenge.

But in any case I get what you are saying.  Our experiences just did indeed differ.

TH

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