[Lester George]

I was fortunate to "win" the job at Kincaid Lake State Park as part of the Kentucky Trail and really enjoyed the challenge of the topography and the limited budget I had to work with (I am sure I had the smallest budget in the system and one of the steepest sites).

I always wondered who was going to play the course.  It is 40 miles from everything!!! I was told that 9 holes was all they had budgeted for and that if popular enough, 9 more would be built later.  I did an 18 hole plan.

I always felt that it would have been better to build 18 holes to make the course MORE profitable and allow for more rounds and more revenue.  Not sure what their numbers are, but, in hindsight, 9 holes may have been the right thing after all.

Lester

[Andy Troeger]

Doug,
While I'm glad that you've played some of my Indiana recommendations and hopefully enjoyed them, you're a wee bit closer to Indiana now than I am to Kentucky coming from New Mexico. If I want mountain golf I can do it much more cost effectively by either staying home or driving to Arizona and Colorado.

While I'm sure I would enjoy the courses, you're the only one promoting them. The few others on the site that have played them have never been all that impressed with anything but the scenery. While I'd like to see them anyway, I could easily come up with a two page list of places I'd like to see--some are higher priority than others. Greywalls is a place I really need to figure out a way to get to, but even that's probably a few years down the road.

[Chris_Blakely]

I was fortunate to "win" the job at Kincaid Lake State Park as part of the Kentucky Trail and really enjoyed the challenge of the topography and the limited budget I had to work with (I am sure I had the smallest budget in the system and one of the steepest sites).

I always wondered who was going to play the course.  It is 40 miles from everything!!! I was told that 9 holes was all they had budgeted for and that if popular enough, 9 more would be built later.  I did an 18 hole plan.

I always felt that it would have been better to build 18 holes to make the course MORE profitable and allow for more rounds and more revenue.  Not sure what their numbers are, but, in hindsight, 9 holes may have been the right thing after all.

Lester

Lester,

It made more sense to build 18 hole "signature" golf courses at Grayson Lake State Park in Grayson, KY and Yatesville Lake State Park in Louisa, KY than at Kincaid Lake State Park in Falmouth, KY.  At least Falmouth appears to be close or to urban places like Covington and Cincinnati.
The two aforementioned courses are 50 miles or more from Huntingon, WV and that is it.

Chris

[Chris_Blakely]

The courses are quite pleasing [I cannot believe that not one GCA'er I have encouraged has gone to Dale Hollow Lake, great bass fishing as well as very sweet course]. The deals are really nice too. Here is the website: http://parks.ky.gov/golftrail/default.htm

I have played the course at Dale Hollow Lake along with most of the other KY state parks.  I can't comment on the bass fishing there, but was not all that impressed with the golf course.  Beautiful setting, but that setting comes at a price.  The land is pretty severe in spots and often balls just off the fairways run into thick trees or worse. 

My tax dollars paid for this and the rest of the KY golf trail courses.  I hope that they are very successful, but I don't think the courses themselves are strong enough to draw repeat visitors to the area.  They are a nice supplement to other attractions but not a draw all on their own.  IMO

Couple of points:

1. They already ARE drawing repeat visitors to the area. I know groups from N Ohio, Michigan, and Toronto who go to Eastern KY yearly now to play ER, HC, and Stonecrest. I know of several who go regularly to Dale Hollow.

2. They did not seem to think that the thinness of the rough was too terrible a punitive circumstance. Of course, it was Army Corp of Engineers that forbade the cutting of more trees so that more sun could be allowed to grow the rough. But the fairways are quite expansive. I am likely about a 25 handicap, and played there two weeks ago losing one ball while finding two. John, did you perhaps hit through fairways where you couldn't resist your driver?

3. John, if you can play a stretch of holes like 12-15 at Dale Hollow and not be impressed, you are a mystery to me indeed. Each their own. I looked at all those pix of Belvedere and could not help but think that  it was a GCA 'in' course, therefor people feel compelled to praise it. Tree-lined classic that GCA'ers usually despise unless worked on by 'in' architect. Give me Greywalls, Eagle Eye, or Eagle Ridge, Dale Hollow etc. I do not CARE who designed them, but they are a blast.

4. Andy, still come see. Remember, I played your suggestions in Indiana [at least some].

I tend to agree that, in these tough economic times, the out of the way courses could suffer most. On the other hand, someone planning a trip from Michigan to Florida in cold times might consider the cheaper altenatives offered by these packages. We can hope.

Doug

1.  I am sure that there are repeat visitors to the KY state park courses and am sorry that my brief response didn't fully explain my point.  Kentucky is a reasonable drive away from Ohio, Michigan, Wisconsin, etc. and the state park system will attract groups from those states looking for a good value that's relatively nearby.  When they offer three nights lodging with rounds of golf, breakfast, and dinner each day for $329 in peak season they will have visitor traffic.  I just don't think that type of play contributes a huge amount to the state's economy.  Hopefully I am wrong.

2.  Some fairways are wide, some are not.  I don't think a player should be able to hit driver on every hole and not worry about the results.  There are too many places where the difference between fairway and lost ball isn't much.  I don't think that works well anywhere, but especially not a "resort" setting.

3.  I said I was not impressed with the golf course, but never said there were no good holes.  There are some, but overall I wouldn't consider Dale Hollow a destination public course.  As to the comparison with Belvedere - I have actually played both courses.  Have you?  If you had, you might have noticed that Belvedere has a safe side on pretty much every hole.  Dale Hollow does not.  Belvedere is 80+ years old and could benefit from removing trees planted after the course was built.  Dale Hollow might benefit from having removed more trees when it was built.   Feel free to stereotype other GCA guys all you want, but the architect's name has nothing to do with my enjoyment of the course.  If you don't believe me, I might point out that I joined a club with Art Hills' name because it's very good and I couldn't care less what people think. 

4.  I wish everyone on the site would go play Dale Hollow, Eagle Ridge, Mineral Mound, or some other course in the state.  We can use the money.

John,

Art Hills newer courses, the ones done in the last 7 to 8 years or so are vastly better than some of the early courses he did.  His strategic bunkering and green sites have gotten much much better and I believe that has a lot to do with Stever Forrest and some of his associates having a bigger role in the design of courses at his company.  Some of this newer courses that I have played and liked are: Shepherd's Hollow in Michigan, Fieldstone in Michigan, Red Hawk Run in Ohio, and Eagle Ridge GC in Kentucky.

I think of all the courses Doug mentions, Eagle Ridge is worth a play for the terrain and greens alone.  The others he mentions are good, but not great.  I think Hidden Cove is good, but could not help but thinkg that it could have been better.  I feel the same way about Stonecrest that I do about Twisted Gun in WV great site and great views, but the golf architecture / layout is quite pedestrian.

I have heard very good things about Hills' new private coures, Olde Stone in Kentucky and from the pictures I have seen, it looks very good as well.  But, I have not played it and I believe it is private.

Chris

[John Mayhugh]

Feel free to stereotype other GCA guys all you want, but the architect's name has nothing to do with my enjoyment of the course.  If you don't believe me, I might point out that I joined a club with Art Hills' name because it's very good and I couldn't care less what people think. 

John,

Art Hills newer courses, the ones done in the last 7 to 8 years or so are vastly better than some of the early courses he did.  His strategic bunkering and green sites have gotten much much better and I believe that has a lot to do with Stever Forrest and some of his associates having a bigger role in the design of courses at his company.  Some of this newer courses that I have played and liked are: Shepherd's Hollow in Michigan, Fieldstone in Michigan, Red Hawk Run in Ohio, and Eagle Ridge GC in Kentucky.

I think of all the courses Doug mentions, Eagle Ridge is worth a play for the terrain and greens alone.  The others he mentions are good, but not great.  I think Hidden Cove is good, but could not help but thinkg that it could have been better.  I feel the same way about Stonecrest that I do about Twisted Gun in WV great site and great views, but the golf architecture / layout is quite pedestrian.

I have heard very good things about Hills' new private coures, Olde Stone in Kentucky and from the pictures I have seen, it looks very good as well.  But, I have not played it and I believe it is private.

Chris

Chris,
Hopefully you didn't misunderstand me.  Doug seems to think that other people on the site only gravitate towards "name" architects.  The work of Arthur Hills has gotten a lot of criticism on the site so I was simply pointing out that I joined a club that is attributed to Hills so Doug shouldn't be so quick to stereotype.

I have not played Eagle Ridge so I cannot comment on it.  I do think that many of the Kentucky state park courses have beautiful sites and great views but the golf architecture is just ok.

Olde Stone is private.  That's the Hills club that I joined.  The lead architect there was Drew Rogers and I think he's very talented.  Olde Stone is a great course.  Not sure where you're located but if you want to check it out sometime send me a message.

[Chris_Blakely]

Feel free to stereotype other GCA guys all you want, but the architect's name has nothing to do with my enjoyment of the course.  If you don't believe me, I might point out that I joined a club with Art Hills' name because it's very good and I couldn't care less what people think. 

John,

Art Hills newer courses, the ones done in the last 7 to 8 years or so are vastly better than some of the early courses he did.  His strategic bunkering and green sites have gotten much much better and I believe that has a lot to do with Stever Forrest and some of his associates having a bigger role in the design of courses at his company.  Some of this newer courses that I have played and liked are: Shepherd's Hollow in Michigan, Fieldstone in Michigan, Red Hawk Run in Ohio, and Eagle Ridge GC in Kentucky.

I think of all the courses Doug mentions, Eagle Ridge is worth a play for the terrain and greens alone.  The others he mentions are good, but not great.  I think Hidden Cove is good, but could not help but thinkg that it could have been better.  I feel the same way about Stonecrest that I do about Twisted Gun in WV great site and great views, but the golf architecture / layout is quite pedestrian.

I have heard very good things about Hills' new private coures, Olde Stone in Kentucky and from the pictures I have seen, it looks very good as well.  But, I have not played it and I believe it is private.

Chris

Chris,
Hopefully you didn't misunderstand me.  Doug seems to think that other people on the site only gravitate towards "name" architects.  The work of Arthur Hills has gotten a lot of criticism on the site so I was simply pointing out that I joined a club that is attributed to Hills so Doug shouldn't be so quick to stereotype.

I have not played Eagle Ridge so I cannot comment on it.  I do think that many of the Kentucky state park courses have beautiful sites and great views but the golf architecture is just ok.

Olde Stone is private.  That's the Hills club that I joined.  The lead architect there was Drew Rogers and I think he's very talented.  Olde Stone is a great course.  Not sure where you're located but if you want to check it out sometime send me a message.

John,

I did not misunderstand what you wrote.  I was attempting to piggyback that by saying that I have played the good and the bad Hills and believe that past criticism of his older courses is warranted.  However, his newer courses IMO are much better and many cases quite good.  If you get a chance, Eagle Ridge is a fun course on a wild site - I am not sure which one of his associates was involved.  I have only played two Kentucky State Park "Signature" series courses, so it would not be fair for me to blanket stereotype their architectural merit.   They were fun to play, reasonably priced and allowed walking (mistake at Hidden Cove  ).

I would love to check out Olde Stone and will send you a message.

Thanks,
Chris

[Jason McNamara]

The other Bear Trace courses are in the Knoxville-Chattanooga-Nashville triangle and close to the long established golf/retirement area of Crossville in the beautiful Cumberland Plateau area.    Sure,   there are more courses in that area for golfing dollars competition, but likewise more traffic, and an established retirement area.  These other BT courses are also in the I-75 northern migration route from Ohio & Michigan & elsewhere down to Florida (and to RTJ Trail for some).

What's the latest at Tim's Ford?  I played there and enjoyed it, but was with friends staying on the lake - otherwise, you'd really have to want to get there.  (It wouldn't be such an onerous trip if that great truck stop in Monteagle were still open, but that's going back at least a dozen years.)

I imagine TF pales in comparison to some of the Chattanooga publics, however.

[Doug Ralston]

Feel free to stereotype other GCA guys all you want, but the architect's name has nothing to do with my enjoyment of the course.  If you don't believe me, I might point out that I joined a club with Art Hills' name because it's very good and I couldn't care less what people think. 

John,

Art Hills newer courses, the ones done in the last 7 to 8 years or so are vastly better than some of the early courses he did.  His strategic bunkering and green sites have gotten much much better and I believe that has a lot to do with Stever Forrest and some of his associates having a bigger role in the design of courses at his company.  Some of this newer courses that I have played and liked are: Shepherd's Hollow in Michigan, Fieldstone in Michigan, Red Hawk Run in Ohio, and Eagle Ridge GC in Kentucky.

I think of all the courses Doug mentions, Eagle Ridge is worth a play for the terrain and greens alone.  The others he mentions are good, but not great.  I think Hidden Cove is good, but could not help but thinkg that it could have been better.  I feel the same way about Stonecrest that I do about Twisted Gun in WV great site and great views, but the golf architecture / layout is quite pedestrian.

I have heard very good things about Hills' new private coures, Olde Stone in Kentucky and from the pictures I have seen, it looks very good as well.  But, I have not played it and I believe it is private.

Chris

Chris,
Hopefully you didn't misunderstand me.  Doug seems to think that other people on the site only gravitate towards "name" architects.  The work of Arthur Hills has gotten a lot of criticism on the site so I was simply pointing out that I joined a club that is attributed to Hills so Doug shouldn't be so quick to stereotype.

I have not played Eagle Ridge so I cannot comment on it.  I do think that many of the Kentucky state park courses have beautiful sites and great views but the golf architecture is just ok.

Olde Stone is private.  That's the Hills club that I joined.  The lead architect there was Drew Rogers and I think he's very talented.  Olde Stone is a great course.  Not sure where you're located but if you want to check it out sometime send me a message.

John,

I did not misunderstand what you wrote.  I was attempting to piggyback that by saying that I have played the good and the bad Hills and believe that past criticism of his older courses is warranted.  However, his newer courses IMO are much better and many cases quite good.  If you get a chance, Eagle Ridge is a fun course on a wild site - I am not sure which one of his associates was involved.  I have only played two Kentucky State Park "Signature" series courses, so it would not be fair for me to blanket stereotype their architectural merit.   They were fun to play, reasonably priced and allowed walking (mistake at Hidden Cove  ).

I would love to check out Olde Stone and will send you a message.

Thanks,
Chris

Chris;

If you think walking at Hidden Cove is a bit much, imagine my surprise when Golf Digest called 'walkability' at Eagle Ridge 'unrestricted'. Well, I suppose they do not actually restrict it, since no one in their right mind ........ .

Please note that in all my extolling of ER, DH, and somewhat HC, I have never said they were architecturally up with courses like many of the upscales and privates discussed here, though what they seem to me to lack is more detail than layout. My claim is, and remains, that it is really good golf for the little money invested, a very fun vacation spot, and well worth the visit. ER rates right up there with Greywalls and Tobacco Road 'for me' in pure fun factor. I really like this kind of golf. It has as yet not a large, but a very loyal following of players from afar who come regularly.

BTW, Steve Forest was the one who was able to find 18 holes through those hollows at Eagle Ridge. Wild job, eh? I like #4 better than any par-5 I have played, but I'm admittedly kind wierd.

Andy;

Did you move west? I musta missed that reference, because I still had you in Indiana. Sorry.

And yes, a trip to Michigan should include Greywalls. Fun, simple, and multiple lines of play, ground or air. And very beautiful, which has always been important to me.

John,

Which private course by Hills did you join? I have been away from GCA a while [for your health], so I think I did not hear you say. Persimmon? Champion's Trace? Olde Stone? I did remember you were from Kentucky. Glad you are here.

Doug

[Andy Troeger]

Doug,
Yes, moved to Albuquerque a couple of years ago. Greywalls might as well not be in Michigan for as far away as it is from the majority of the other courses in the lower peninsula. Its pretty much a stand-alone destination (with Timberstone and the other new course up there--the name escapes me).

From South Bend one can get to Pittsburgh or Nashville quicker than Greywalls, even though Niles, MI is only a few minutes away. Someday...

[Jeff_Brauer]

.......The road to hell is paved with good intentions....... 

Yeah, and it was paved by Kavanaugh Paving Co., too!  

(At least formerly on this site......)  Just kidding if you are reading JK!

[Doug Ralston]

Doug,
Yes, moved to Albuquerque a couple of years ago. Greywalls might as well not be in Michigan for as far away as it is from the majority of the other courses in the lower peninsula. Its pretty much a stand-alone destination (with Timberstone and the other new course up there--the name escapes me).

From South Bend one can get to Pittsburgh or Nashville quicker than Greywalls, even though Niles, MI is only a few minutes away. Someday...

It's called Sweetgrass BTW, at the Island Resort Casino [Potowatame]. Pretty neat little new course, hope someone here takes a look. Great packages for the three courses.

Andy, I know exactly how far up there. Took us 12hrs from Cincy to Island Resort, going through Chicago and Wisconsin. Returned the Michigan route, playing as we went. Great trip in early September, more and more varied wildlife than I have ever seen short of a zoo. Golf is great, but not all there is worth experiencing.

Wish I was as close as you to Lakota Canyon, one of my real dream courses.

Sorry, we have diverged dramtically from the topic, likely my fault.

Doug

[John Mayhugh]

Which private course by Hills did you join? I have been away from GCA a while [for your health], so I think I did not hear you say. Persimmon? Champion's Trace? Olde Stone? I did remember you were from Kentucky. Glad you are here.

Doug

Even though I live in Louisville, Persimmon Ridge wasn't an option (I'm not a huge fan of it).  I joined Olde Stone.  Mentioned it earlier in this thread.  If you want to check it out sometime after things warm up, sent me a message.  I do need to see Eagle Ridge one of these days.

[Doug Ralston]

John;

That's a great thing. Several of my GKL friends have played at Olde Stone, saying it was not only a beauty, but a hell of a challenge. You should do an article here on the course, if you have not already [been away]. It deserves a bit of a look. I watched some of the Junior Ryder Cup played there [USA kicked some butt!] and liked what I saw.

Doug

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