[Tim Bert]

From this morning's Tennessean:

"The state-owned Bear Trace at Chickasaw will be closed for good, unless private investors step forward to lease or purchase the Jack Nicklaus-designed golf course.

'We have plans to close the course March 31,' said Tennessee Director of Golf Administration Jim Webb.  'If no one leases or buys the course, it will return to nature.' "

Some of you may remember that the Bear Trace courses have previously fallen on tough times and were re-organized into the State Park golf course system a year or two ago.  I believe this is the first full casualty.  While I'm sure the economic environment is contributing, a lot of this goes back to poor planning in my mind.  While it sounds really cool to have a RTJ Trail type of experience in your home state, if you build those courses in the middle of nowhere instead of focused around urban centers (as they did in Alabama) and you deliver mediore designs.... it has been proven that people will not come.

Another casualty in 2009.

[Doug Ralston]

Tim;

We have been hearing of troubles with the 'Bear' Trail for some time. People I know who have played have thought Ross Creek Landing was pretty good design, the rest considerably lesser. They really played on the Nicklaus brand. This loss does not surprise me, sad though it is.

To rehash my old contention, the Kentucky State Park Trail is much better. They DID profit in the 2007-2008 year [July to June, that being their business year]. I doubt they will this year, after the economic freefall this past September. On the other hand, they have been concentrated on drawing business to the rural areas around the parks, and in this they have measurably done pretty well. The courses are quite pleasing [I cannot believe that not one GCA'er I have encouraged has gone to Dale Hollow Lake, great bass fishing as well as very sweet course]. The deals are really nice too. Here is the website: http://parks.ky.gov/golftrail/default.htm

Hopefully this economy will recover a bit, and staying near a metro area [with all you lose therefrom] will not be as big a consideration. State Parks are supposed to be places of value protected, not profit or death businesses! Incredibly, not everything we do in our society need be, or should be, about wealth.

But reality intrudes, I suppose.

Doug

[Andy Troeger]

I really like the Bear Trace at Cumberland Mountain, plus I made my second hole in one there. I would certainly not characterize it as a mediocre design, especially the middle of the course (about the 5th hole through the 13th). Its hard to walk because of the terrain, but I think its doable. Wonderful scenery too.

[Phil McDade]

Doug:

Welcome back! I've missed your Kentucky dispatches. Some guard the Wildcats have on their hands....

[Tim Copeland]

"mediocre designs"

Ouch

[Doug Ralston]

Doug:

Welcome back! I've missed your Kentucky dispatches. Some guard the Wildcats have on their hands....

Ouch Phil!

Remember, I am a Tennessee Alum, upon whom this Kentucky &%*#) scored 54 pts!!  Unfortunately, my poor Vols are not quite the team of the past couple years.

But thanks for your acknowledgement of my return. Glad someone missed me. That makes one. 

Andy!

http://parks.ky.gov/golftrail/default.htm

There, look at the deals. Go!

Doug

[John Mayhugh]

The courses are quite pleasing [I cannot believe that not one GCA'er I have encouraged has gone to Dale Hollow Lake, great bass fishing as well as very sweet course]. The deals are really nice too. Here is the website: http://parks.ky.gov/golftrail/default.htm

I have played the course at Dale Hollow Lake along with most of the other KY state parks.  I can't comment on the bass fishing there, but was not all that impressed with the golf course.  Beautiful setting, but that setting comes at a price.  The land is pretty severe in spots and often balls just off the fairways run into thick trees or worse. 

My tax dollars paid for this and the rest of the KY golf trail courses.  I hope that they are very successful, but I don't think the courses themselves are strong enough to draw repeat visitors to the area.  They are a nice supplement to other attractions but not a draw all on their own.  IMO

[Morgan Clawson]

Bear Trace never marketed themsleves the way that the RTJ golf trail did.  Up here in Minneapolis there were fly and play charters that were advertised all the time.  Most avid golfers know of the RTJ Trail, but I bet very few have heard of Bear Trace. 

[Jerry Lemons]

Tim, When the bear trace was first announced, many of us in the golf business said they would not work for Tennessee. We fought  to stop the massive spending but our voices fell on deaf political ears. Their locations became so political and the inside deal with Golf Services was allegedly crooked. Had they been placed along interstates and easier to access, they would have had a better chance. The Chickasaw course did 9000 rounds the past 2 years. Not a bad design but a far cry from a JN "Signature" course.
Each cost Tennessee taxpayers 5 million each and none have made money or paid the debt back. Golf Services got off the hook 2 years ago and were able to leave a million dollar bond on the table. Not a big loss considering they had been paid 25 million to build 5 courses.  Another great fleecing of America at golf's expense.
The local government wants to lease it for a dollar a year. They will loose their @ss if they do it.
I suspect that others may close too this year unless something changes fast.

[Mike Nuzzo]

Thanks Jerry.

Why is building 5 courses for $25MM a fleecing as opposed to $20-30MM for 1 course (recent muni elsewhere in the US)?
That seems like a pretty decent deal.

Cheers

[Jerry Lemons]

Mike, the fleecing is when the courses are put in the wrong places that will never support the traffic and cover the operating cost let alone the debt repayment.

The last two years alone the Chickasaw course lost 800k. Thats a fleecing of taxpayers money.

[Jeff_Brauer]

I remember sitting in those pre bid meetings......I kinda felt they weren't gonna fly then. But, I guess that's easy to say now......

[Jerry Lemons]

Jeff,
I am a lot smarter at picking winners and losers AFTER the game is over.
Some of these never had a chance.
Jerry

[Garland Bayley]

They need to be accessible from the interstate? That's easy! Just build an interstate that goes by them. 

[Jerry Lemons]

Great Ideal Garland, a new project for Obama, considering I 40 is 40 miles from most Bear Traces, that should stir the economy.
Jerry

[JWL]

Mike Nuzzo

I am not sure where you got those numbers of 25  million for 5 courses, but maybe that included more than just the golf courses.   The deal was with 3 partners, Wadsworth Construction, Jim Hardy's group and the state of Tennessee.   The maximum allowed to be spent on any golf course was 2.9 million and that number was not exceeded at Cumberland and Chickasaw.   Not sure about the other sites, but I am pretty sure that amount applied to them also.

[Doug Ralston]

The courses are quite pleasing [I cannot believe that not one GCA'er I have encouraged has gone to Dale Hollow Lake, great bass fishing as well as very sweet course]. The deals are really nice too. Here is the website: http://parks.ky.gov/golftrail/default.htm

I have played the course at Dale Hollow Lake along with most of the other KY state parks.  I can't comment on the bass fishing there, but was not all that impressed with the golf course.  Beautiful setting, but that setting comes at a price.  The land is pretty severe in spots and often balls just off the fairways run into thick trees or worse. 

My tax dollars paid for this and the rest of the KY golf trail courses.  I hope that they are very successful, but I don't think the courses themselves are strong enough to draw repeat visitors to the area.  They are a nice supplement to other attractions but not a draw all on their own.  IMO

Couple of points:

1. They already ARE drawing repeat visitors to the area. I know groups from N Ohio, Michigan, and Toronto who go to Eastern KY yearly now to play ER, HC, and Stonecrest. I know of several who go regularly to Dale Hollow.

2. They did not seem to think that the thinness of the rough was too terrible a punitive circumstance. Of course, it was Army Corp of Engineers that forbade the cutting of more trees so that more sun could be allowed to grow the rough. But the fairways are quite expansive. I am likely about a 25 handicap, and played there two weeks ago losing one ball while finding two. John, did you perhaps hit through fairways where you couldn't resist your driver?

3. John, if you can play a stretch of holes like 12-15 at Dale Hollow and not be impressed, you are a mystery to me indeed. Each their own. I looked at all those pix of Belvedere and could not help but think that  it was a GCA 'in' course, therefor people feel compelled to praise it. Tree-lined classic that GCA'ers usually despise unless worked on by 'in' architect. Give me Greywalls, Eagle Eye, or Eagle Ridge, Dale Hollow etc. I do not CARE who designed them, but they are a blast.

4. Andy, still come see. Remember, I played your suggestions in Indiana [at least some].

I tend to agree that, in these tough economic times, the out of the way courses could suffer most. On the other hand, someone planning a trip from Michigan to Florida in cold times might consider the cheaper altenatives offered by these packages. We can hope.

Doug

[Garland Bayley]

Mike Nuzzo

I am not sure where you got those numbers of 25  million for 5 courses, but maybe that included more than just the golf courses.   The deal was with 3 partners, Wadsworth Construction, Jim Hardy's group and the state of Tennessee.   The maximum allowed to be spent on any golf course was 2.9 million and that number was not exceeded at Cumberland and Chickasaw.   Not sure about the other sites, but I am pretty sure that amount applied to them also.

I think John Kavanaugh talked them into spending the rest on freeway interchanges near the courses that he would build.

[Mike Nuzzo]

Jim,
I got the number from a few posts above me via Jerry.
I thought I was sticking up for Nicklaus this time. 
Cheers

[John Mayhugh]

The courses are quite pleasing [I cannot believe that not one GCA'er I have encouraged has gone to Dale Hollow Lake, great bass fishing as well as very sweet course]. The deals are really nice too. Here is the website: http://parks.ky.gov/golftrail/default.htm

I have played the course at Dale Hollow Lake along with most of the other KY state parks.  I can't comment on the bass fishing there, but was not all that impressed with the golf course.  Beautiful setting, but that setting comes at a price.  The land is pretty severe in spots and often balls just off the fairways run into thick trees or worse. 

My tax dollars paid for this and the rest of the KY golf trail courses.  I hope that they are very successful, but I don't think the courses themselves are strong enough to draw repeat visitors to the area.  They are a nice supplement to other attractions but not a draw all on their own.  IMO

Couple of points:

1. They already ARE drawing repeat visitors to the area. I know groups from N Ohio, Michigan, and Toronto who go to Eastern KY yearly now to play ER, HC, and Stonecrest. I know of several who go regularly to Dale Hollow.

2. They did not seem to think that the thinness of the rough was too terrible a punitive circumstance. Of course, it was Army Corp of Engineers that forbade the cutting of more trees so that more sun could be allowed to grow the rough. But the fairways are quite expansive. I am likely about a 25 handicap, and played there two weeks ago losing one ball while finding two. John, did you perhaps hit through fairways where you couldn't resist your driver?

3. John, if you can play a stretch of holes like 12-15 at Dale Hollow and not be impressed, you are a mystery to me indeed. Each their own. I looked at all those pix of Belvedere and could not help but think that  it was a GCA 'in' course, therefor people feel compelled to praise it. Tree-lined classic that GCA'ers usually despise unless worked on by 'in' architect. Give me Greywalls, Eagle Eye, or Eagle Ridge, Dale Hollow etc. I do not CARE who designed them, but they are a blast.

4. Andy, still come see. Remember, I played your suggestions in Indiana [at least some].

I tend to agree that, in these tough economic times, the out of the way courses could suffer most. On the other hand, someone planning a trip from Michigan to Florida in cold times might consider the cheaper altenatives offered by these packages. We can hope.

Doug

1.  I am sure that there are repeat visitors to the KY state park courses and am sorry that my brief response didn't fully explain my point.  Kentucky is a reasonable drive away from Ohio, Michigan, Wisconsin, etc. and the state park system will attract groups from those states looking for a good value that's relatively nearby.  When they offer three nights lodging with rounds of golf, breakfast, and dinner each day for $329 in peak season they will have visitor traffic.  I just don't think that type of play contributes a huge amount to the state's economy.  Hopefully I am wrong.

2.  Some fairways are wide, some are not.  I don't think a player should be able to hit driver on every hole and not worry about the results.  There are too many places where the difference between fairway and lost ball isn't much.  I don't think that works well anywhere, but especially not a "resort" setting.

3.  I said I was not impressed with the golf course, but never said there were no good holes.  There are some, but overall I wouldn't consider Dale Hollow a destination public course.  As to the comparison with Belvedere - I have actually played both courses.  Have you?  If you had, you might have noticed that Belvedere has a safe side on pretty much every hole.  Dale Hollow does not.  Belvedere is 80+ years old and could benefit from removing trees planted after the course was built.  Dale Hollow might benefit from having removed more trees when it was built.   Feel free to stereotype other GCA guys all you want, but the architect's name has nothing to do with my enjoyment of the course.  If you don't believe me, I might point out that I joined a club with Art Hills' name because it's very good and I couldn't care less what people think. 

4.  I wish everyone on the site would go play Dale Hollow, Eagle Ridge, Mineral Mound, or some other course in the state.  We can use the money.

[Jerry Lemons]

Mike, Jim,
 the information about the cost of the Bear Trace courses has always been publicized at 20 million for 4 courses. The fifth course (and best one of the bunch but farthest from all civilization) Ross Creek Landing in  Clifton (population about 1250) sold late 2008 to a private individual for a reported  2 million. A deal for a JNSC if it could have cash flowed.
(Ross creek's total cost was published at 5 million so that is where the 25 million came from.

http://www.tennesseepolicy.org/main/article.php?article_id=249

The courses have not done well for the Volunteer State not from poor design but poor location. Actually These course are pretty player friendly!

Bear Trace may have worked if they had been placed closer to the interstates/populated areas. Those of us in the Golf industry could never get the State to do a legitimate feasibility study on each one. Now we know why! The NGF has done many studies that indicate you cannot build a course in the boonies: greater than 17 miles from a supporting populated area.



See our golf pork! We lost $1,191,000 in 2006!

http://www.docstoc.com/docs/2921301/Tennessee-Pork-Report-Tennessee-s-State-Government-Gone-Hog-Wild

One can aurgue that these had a positive impact on taxes and local business, unfortunalty golf does not need to be a loss leader in any situation if the courses are expected to survive long term.

Jerry

[PThomas]

sounds like a good  idea...poorly executed

[Lou_Duran]

It's been awhile since I saw some financials on Alabama's RTJ Trail, but they were hardly impressive.  My recollection is that the Alabama properties were much more expensive to build (one bridge alone cost over $1 million), costly to maintain, and that the net operating income didn't come close to meeting debt service.  From the state's perspective, the rationale was the derivative income they generated for the surrounding communities more than made up for it.  There is/was considerable state employees' retirement funds tied-up in these courses.   I wonder what the return really is, and whether the state kicked-in additional money when the debt was restructured.

Is Bear Trace that bad or poorly located that it can't generate $1 million in revenues?  It seems that if bare-to-the-bone operating expenses can be covered, it would be better for the state to find someone to lease it for a nominal amount.

Paul Thomas,

The road to hell is paved with good intentions.  Policy wonks can come up with all types of neat solutions to perceived problems.  On paper, using the famous catch-all static condition- "ceteris paribus", after you play with all the underlying assumptions, they can be made to work marvelously.  In the real dynamic world they seldom do, otherwise many of the underlying principles would already be in practice.

Back in the old days when I was proficient with Lotus 1-2-3, you would be surprised how well I could make the numbers tumble. The spreadsheet said I could even offer a "conservative" 15% preferred return to golf course investors, with a 30% likely, and a 50%+ probable.  Thank God that the financial markets had some discipline back in those days! 

[john_stiles]

The Bear Trace at Chickasaw was not in a favorable location IMO.  It located near Jackson Tennessee about 70-80 miles from Memphis, much further from Nashville.

I have no idea of number of visitors to the existing park, before the course was built.    Other than Jackson, there are very small communities in the immediate area.

The other Bear Trace courses are in the Knoxville-Chattanooga-Nashville triangle and close to the long established golf/retirement area of Crossville in the beautiful Cumberland Plateau area.    Sure,   there are more courses in that area for golfing dollars competition, but likewise more traffic, and an established retirement area.  These other BT courses are also in the I-75 northern migration route from Ohio & Michigan & elsewhere down to Florida (and to RTJ Trail for some).

The Bear Trace at Harrison Bay (Chattanooga) is in middle of developing bedroom communities and the new $1 B  Volkswagen plant (which will still be built as of January 2009).

[Steve Lang]

  Last time we were in Crossville we took  a day trip to a relatively nearby Bear Trace Course.. my buddy from knoxville was driving so I don't remember where we went exactly, but the only thing i remember was a couple of wrong turns getting there and other than some wide fairways, the marshalls giving us heck for driving on the rough.. the rough must be saved from cart traffic..

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()