[Ian Larson]

So I'm sitting here on the couch watching Jon Stewart and he has Lewis Black as a guest doing his shtick about the government. Specifically how everyone and there mother is going to DC and requesting bailout or stimulus packages.

They then show a clip from CNN with examples of who is asking for a handout. One of the examples was "Enviornmentally sound golf courses in Dayton, OH".

Can anyone from the Dayton area confirm or deny this? And if it is confirmed I would love to hear the reasoning and what the plan for the money is and how it would be allocated. And what I really mean by that is I think they are trying to scam the government into saving their memberships and budgets. Being enviornmentally sound doesn't start with money, it starts with common sense.

[Tom_Doak]

Ian:

I wouldn't jump to the conclusion that it's a scam.  The golf industry would love to get some bailout money, just like everybody else.  And it might create jobs in the golf business, just like anywhere else.

What I don't like is the implication that most other golf courses are not environmentally sound.

[Mike_Cirba]

Many, many of the municipal courses in this country were built and/or upgraded with WPA bailout money that helped our parents and grandparents feed and clothe their families during the 1930s.

[Garland Bayley]

Would these be what are called shovel ready projects? 

[David_Tepper]

I would encourage everyone to read Geoff Shackelford's excellent essay on this subject in the current issue of GolfWorld magazine. I will try to post a link.

Here it is:

http://www.geoffshackelford.com/homepage/2009/1/14/thats-akin-to-eliminating-the-need-to-water-six-courses-savi.html

Sorry, this is a better link to the article:

http://www.golfdigest.com/golfworld/columnists/2009/01/gw20090119shackelford

[Joel_Stewart]

I'm not sure about an individual golf course but the industry needs it.  Think of the jobs at Toro for new equipment and Rainbird for new irrigation equipment.   Add in the construction jobs at courses and you have a success.   Or you can build a highway or overpass to no where.

[Jeff_Brauer]

I think Geoff nails it.  To start with, there was probably a shortage of public golf courses and open space in general in 1930, so building new public courses made a lot of sense. I am not sure how Prairie Dunes fit in that in that I doubt the govt funded a private club, even if they used that project to stimulate the labor force somehow.

Right now there is an overabundance of public golf, based on market absorption.  So, there is no justification for anything other than maybe learning courses, and maybe have those combined with fitness courses for youth.

So, Geoff - and that Dayton course - is right that any funds forthcoming to golf might best be secured in the name of upgrading irrigation, providing biofilters, etc. to make them more environmentally friendly (not that they aren't right now, but perception is different, and yes, we can always do better)

It seems as worthwhile an endeavor for public funding as almost anything, really.

[Criss Titschinger]

Can anyone from the Dayton area confirm or deny this?

From Cincinnati; haven't seen anything in the Dayton/Cincy papers.

[Ian Larson]

Let's just assume that this is true....

1. I think the Dayton area courses went about it in the wrong way. They, and every other course in
    The country, should have gone through the GCSAA that already has capital hill lobbyists in place.
    It's kinds like the entry level employee going to the CEO for a raise.

2. Are they now and have they demonstrated a past record of being enviornmentaly sound? The first
    way to prove this is to find out how many Dayton courses are certified by the Audobon Society
    which in reality is the only establishment in place to certify a golf course is enviornmentally sound.

3. Just like the "Big 3" this money should be accounted for and allocated for the sole purpose of
    establishing or maintaining an enviornmental protection program at the facillity, Audobon.
    If a single cent goes to anything other than this the monies should be retracted and the facility
    fined.


It's way too easy to respond to this thread with "Oh yeah they should hand some out to the golf industry". Most of us on here have careers in the industry, including myself. But I think it would be
A huge mistake to jump the gun and send out an SOS to the feds at this point. We are far far away from having all the necesary checks and balances in place to ensure federal government money would be spent responsibly.

Schools need to start implemting this in their programs. Superintendents should be certified with more than a pesticide license at their facility. The EPA needs to be more involved with golf courses. The local and national GCSAA needs to get more involved with enviornmental responsibility. And the GCSAA needs to start communicating more about the enviornmental stewardship we already assume and crack down where we don't.

Geoff's article was great and he hit the head on the nail with what a portion of any money should be used for with practice facility type things. I don't think we need more 18 hole publics or privates. And yes that was great with what happened in the thirties with WPA money but this is the next century and things are completely different now.

Enviornmental consciousness needs to start with the schools and the superintendents with golf course and irrigation designers right on their heels. The last thing the industry needs is to have it's image soiled by not raising the bar enviornmentally and even worse, not using federal money responsibly to achieve that.

[Ian Larson]

...and after reading the other thread about Geoff's article I want to clarify that I started this thread because I was appauled that Dayton took it upon themselves to go to capital hill. I think it is complete bullshit and don't think they are doing it for the right reasons. The GCSAA would be the correct route if it needed to be done.

But I don't think it should be done, I don't want the golf industry looking like everyone else looking for a handout. We need to make a better effort from within to become more responsible, when we have proven that then yes, maybe we could get assistance later down the road.

There are more importatant things in this country that need the assistance more than golf does. There is more to life than golf and Dayton is an embarrassment to the golf industry.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Ian,

is there any other case where the bail out funds are going to a trade organization for distribution to their members?

[Ian Larson]

Jeff,

I can't honestly say there is BUT Im absolutely sure there is.

But I don't think that the golf industry should automatically think that they are entitled before something that is more relevant to our countries success.

To put it in perspective in relation to the golf industry, should golf get money before, say, parks and recreation departments? I would say no....they serve an even broader demographic.

The golf industry should put it's best foot forward and improve itself from within before it gets a handout. Atleast that's the kind of profession I would like to be associated with.

[Steve Lang]

  as an ohio boy from 1959-1991 I can't give them any grief.. i applaud their initiative!  its people that make a difference and if one thinks a group's agenda doesn't represent their views or needs, why should they "properly" have to be associated??

as i said on the other thread about Schackleford's article.. never up never in!

is the Wright Pat course involved?

[Jim_Kennedy]

Some appealing for funds.......
 
-Bessemer, Ala., wants $7,000,0000 to replace the greens and landscape the Frank House Golf Course;
-Lake Havasu City, Ariz., wants $14,800,000 for the clubhouse, maintenance building, and grading and another $10,200,000 part of which will go to a 320-acre golf course;
-Des Moines, Iowa, wants $1,300,000 for a clubhouse at the Grandview Golf Course;
-Louisville, Kent., wants $2,100,000 to energy retrofit golf clubhouses;
-Brockton, Mass., wants $1,500,000 for their field park and golf course restoration project;
-Roseville, Minn., wants $1,500,000 to replace the club house and maintenance shop a the golf course;
-Florissant, Mo., wants $1,100,000 for a golf course water reclamation project and another $1,100,000 for a new maintenance building;
-St. Louis, Mo., wants $2,100,000 for their Forest Park Urban Golf Course renovation;
-Dayton, Ohio, wants $500,000 for environmentally friendly golf courses;
-Arlington, Tex., wants $6,000,000 for the CW Ditto Golf Course renovation;
-Austin Tex., wants $4,000,000 for the Walter Morris Williams Golf Course renovation and $1,300,000 for the Hancock Golf Course

......and it doesn't end there, hope you can speed read:

http://www.usmayors.org/mainstreeteconomicrecovery/documents/mser-report-20081219.pdf

[Mike_Cirba]

I think we are short-sighted here if we don't realize the potential environmental value of the greenspace golf provides in highly-congested, highly-paved-over urban and even suburban areas.

I also think we are short-sighted here if we don't realize the potential economic value of employing labor in much needed public infrastructure and construction projects, which includes golf course construction, waterway stabilization, and good old-fashioned hand labor.

[Joe Hancock]

Mike,

Are you convinced that now is a great time for millions and millions of our taxpayer dollars to be invested in golf course upgrades?

Joe

[Mike_Cirba]

Mike,

Are you convinced that now is a great time for millions and millions of our taxpayer dollars to be invested in golf course upgrades?

Joe

Joe,

I can't think of a better time.

I'd much rather see tax dollars going to work-creation projects than paying people millions and millions of dollars to sit home on the dole.

Working people spend money, buy things, and start the engines of the economy from the steerage section of the big boat.

Work builds pride, character, and encourages thrift and personal integrity and responsibility. 

The people dancing on the deck in first class are mostly along for the ride and that's ok too, but they do need someone to power the engine.

[Ian Larson]

Mike,

Golf courses are going to continue being green spaces with or without federal money being thrown at them. We also dont need to be throwing money at them for clubhouse, maintenance building and golf course renovations just to burn up that money and create more jobs. Jobs can be created for more worthwhile things in this country like the infrastructure, schools, public works that are deteriorating etc., etc.. This mayors list is a wish list and shouldnt involve golf at this point in time. Any one that questions that has a problem being logical with prioritizing.

As Im watching the news here in sunny Santa Monica Im seeing that California is literally going to run out of money in a few weeks. They are actually saying we will be using an IOU system. There will be all kinds of statewide cuts that involve mail delivery, shorter school years etc...
Do you really think this is the time to renovate the golf course? SERIOUSLY!!!!??


Jim,

Thats awesome you found that because that is exactly what I saw Lewis Black bitching about on Jon Stewart last night. The first thing I looked up was if california had anything on the wishlist for golf courses, and they dont. Thank God. And neither should any other city or state during a time of economical crisis.

[Mike_Cirba]

Ian,

Perhaps you live in a different part of the country than I do, but the greenspace of golf courses are starting to disappear around here due to economic pressures.

Many of them are being sold or simply closing their doors, and many others including private clubs are on the brink.

They function much as the Park Systems, and I don't see anyone quarreling that those should be a priority.

I'm all for roads, hospitals, bridges, etc., getting first dibs, but I don't think prioritization means looking at hundreds of acres of today's urban and suburban greenspace, fire control, and flood control areas and saying F You!

[Mike_Cirba]

You know, the more I think about this the more I'm pissed off with all due respect.   We should be trying to help spread the benefits and joys of this great, great game.

If you guys think that this game will thrive, much less survive in 50-100 years just by a shrinking White portion of the population playing further and further out from major population centers, you're out of your minds.

Unless we can find a way to bring affordable, viable golf back to large population centers, and find a way to bring it to socio-economic groups and races who haven't historically had those oppportunies, then we might as well all be playing the polo or lawn bowling of the 21 century, because we'll have just as much relevance in about another 25 years.

[Mike_Cirba]

I think these lines from Geoff's essay are especially relevant and telling;

Jerris notes that the 1930s were an epic era for the game thanks to an increased interest in and expansion of public golf. As playing costs plummeted and elitist stigmas disappeared, golf became more accessible to working classes and women, with 20 percent growth in new female players each year from 1930 to 1936.

While public golf courses should be the focus of grant aid in the Obama administration's version of the WPA, country clubs doing their part for charity and community should be offered the chance to earn incentives for eliminating unnecessary turf, updating their irrigation systems to reduce energy costs and any other job-producing activities.

I'm surprised that my buddy Rihc, who is one of the most strategic and forward-thinking people I've ever met isn't seeing this opportunity.

[Kyle Harris]

Mike,

Your comparison is a bit shaky, but your heart is in the right place. The success of the social programs bought about by the Great Depression is skewed very much by World War II. Furthermore, keep in mind that WPA Golf projects were small compared to such infrastructure projects like the Tennessee Valley Authority. My point is that while these are very worthy causes, very few of them have lasting benefits to those employed once the project is done.

At least with World War II, the men were sent off to fight, and those that survived came back and could educate themselves with the GI Bill.

Sustainability comes from making an investment in people.

Once the golf courses are restored/renovated what then? How much is a $10.00/hour job going to help?

[Mike_Cirba]

Kyle,

This has absolutely nothing to do with "heart".

In trying to view this on a macro level, you're missing thousands and maybe millions of micro stories.

Yes, perhaps after years of public works projects were accomplished, there might not have been long term careers created that were directly attributable for all of the folks employed by these WPA and CCC programs, but how many folks and their families did those projects sustain and house and clothe and feed for almost a decade.

That isn't cheap sentimentality...that's pure survival.   We likely both had relatives who benefited.

Hell, there is an argument to be made that some of us might not be here typing if our parents or grandparents didn't make it through those difficult years, and I'm not trying to over-dramatize the situation.

And as far as the lasting legacy and value of their work during that time, surely a history buff like you can't truly be serious.

Aren't you the guy who showed us those wonderful pictures last week of the almost artful retaining walls built by WPA labor for flood control at Cobb's Creek?   

How about the railroad bridges, the aqueducts, the public buildings, the highways, the parks, the dams?

Are you telling me that because those people who survived in WPA lifeboats for a decade didn't all become IBM sailors that those programs were failures?

[Mike Sweeney]

You know, the more I think about this the more I'm pissed off with all due respect.   We should be trying to help spread the benefits and joys of this great, great game.

If you guys think that this game will thrive, much less survive in 50-100 years just by a shrinking White portion of the population playing further and further out from major population centers, you're out of your minds.

Unless we can find a way to bring affordable, viable golf back to large population centers, and find a way to bring it to socio-economic groups and races who haven't historically had those oppportunies, then we might as well all be playing the polo of the 21 century, because we'll have just as much relevance in about another 25 years.

Mike,

Your making the assumption  that XYZ "socio-economic groups and races who haven't historically had those oppportunies" want to play golf. The post-war generation established a leisure time for the working class and they wanted to play golf. Now much of our urban growth comes from immigration, and those guys come here with leisure activities already in hand such as baseball, soccer and cricket.

My real home course is:

http://www.randallsislandgolfcenter.com/

Randalls Island is 480 acres and the golf range takes up a decent size footprint.

They did just upgrade the golf range - a little, but they are now re-building/building on the rest of the island :

Current Facilities Include:

Icahn Stadium, a world-class IAAF sanctioned track & field facility, capable of hosting local, regional, national and international events
Premier Soccer Field adjacent to the Stadium with artificial surface, lighting, scoreboard and bleacher seating for 600
18 Soccer Fields (currently under construction)
26 Softball and Baseball Fields (currently under construction)
Tennis Center
Golf Center
Ferry Dock
Picnic areas
Playground


New Park Projects

Redevelopment of 64 sports fields (currently under construction)
SporTime Tennis Center – privately developed (slated to open fall 2008)
Interpretive and Interactive Boardwalk (complete)
Waterfront Pathways (ongoing)
Wetlands and salt marsh restoration (currently under construction)
Shoreline and seawall reconstruction (ongoing)
Roadway, parking and infrastructure improvements (ongoing)
Visitors and Nature Center (tbd)

Now should New York build the above or should they build two 18 hole golf courses. By the way, Randall's Island serves 700,000 people per year!

The guys who are really getting screwed are the cricket players. Nothing for them on Randall's officially but they may be able to get permitting at off times and convert the field. They never have enough fields:  http://www.nycgovparks.org/facilities/cricket

[Kyle Harris]

Kyle,

This has absolutely nothing to do with "heart".

In trying to view this on a macro level, you're missing thousands and maybe millions of micro stories.

Yes, perhaps after years of projects were accomplished, there might not have been long term careers directly attributable for all of the folks employed by these WPA and CCC programs, but how many folks and their families did those projects sustain and house and clothe and feed for almost a decade.

That isn't cheap sentimentality...that's pure survival.   We likely both had relatives who benefited.

Hell, there is an argument to be made that some of us might not be here typing if our parents or grandparents didn't make it through those difficult years, and I'm not trying to over-dramatize the situation.

And as far as the lasting legacy and value of their work during that time, surely a history buff like you can't truly be serious.

Aren't you the guy who showed us those wonderful pictures last week of the almost artful retaining walls built by WPA labor for flood control at Cobb's Creek?   

How about the railroad bridges, the aqueducts, the public buildings, the highways, the parks, the dams?

Are you telling me that because these people who survived in lifeboats for a decade didn't all become sailors that those programs were failures?

Mike,

I'm not saying that at all. I'm just saying that World War II had as much to do with the turn around of America during that era as New Deal politics. One cannot separate the two.

It has nothing to do with their legacy or the legacy of those projects, but what can be done with that experience. Eventually the life raft has to reach the shore. When it reached the shore back then, it was 1950 and America was a MUCH different place then.

I think that an environment needs to be bred where these projects can be used a stepping stones into a more sustainable investment, i.e. education.

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