[Mark_Rowlinson]

Mr Choi's interesting subject set me thinking about flat courses on this side of the pond. Excluding links courses (although very few really qualify as flat - Conwy is one), the prime example must be Royal Antwerp which is utterly flat apart from a few mounds and a few slightly elevated greens. I doubt if there is more than 6 foot  between the highest and lowest points, trees excluded! My memory of New Zealand is that it, too, is similarly flat, but my memory may well be false.

[Rich Goodale]

Ladybank has relatively little elevation and is a very good course.

[Sean_A]

Mark

Judging from the American thread this flatness subject is obviously tricky business.  Its probably more reasonable to speak in terms of essentially flat.  Looking at it from this point of view I would agree that both New Zealand and Conway are essentially flat despite a few areas on both courses where the land gently rises and/or dips.  In the case of New Zealand I would say there must be a 10-12 foot dip in the 4th and 7th fairways.  Conwy too has this sort of rise on the par 5 9th.  The 3rd (one of the classic drivable par 4s that is often neglected in discussions of such) also has a lovely rise at the green.  Not surprisingly, these are two of the best holes at Conwy. 

Princes is essentially flat, but the terrain is outstanding with low lying dunes. 

Ciao

[Jeff_Mingay]

Perhaps some of the Aussies can offer more, but Kingston Heath jumps to mind.

Here, in Canada, Donald Ross' Essex must be at the top of the list of the "best flat courses". St. Charles, in Winnipeg, is pretty flat too, featuring 9 from Ross and 9 from Alister Mackenzie.

After that... not much, here.

[James Boon]

Isn't Woodhall Spa pretty flat? The biggest level change I can remember there is when stepping down into some of the bunkers!

Cheers,

James

[Kyle Henderson]

How much ground movement existed before course construction at the Kingsbarn site? Castle Course?

[Mark_F]

Perhaps some of the Aussies can offer more, but Kingston Heath jumps to mind.

Kingston Heath isn't flat...

Eynesbury is the flattest course of my experience here, but it isn't very good.

Maybe Spring Valley?

[Mike_Clayton]

Mark,

Spring Valley is close to being as flat - or as undulating - at Kingston Heath. Neither is as flat as Metropolitan. 6,7,8,10,11,15 and 18 at Spring Valley have some interesting undulation changes.

I think Royal Queensland might be the best flat course in Australia - certainly its the most interesting to play.

[Jeff_Mingay]

Mike,

Is it that Kingston Heath is relatively flat, then? This has long been my understanding.

Seems that perhaps the actual definition of "flat" in this context is a bit confusing.

[Mike_Clayton]

Jeff.

Kingston Heath is relatively flat - but you play up and over small hills at the 1st and the 8th holes as well as with the second at 14.  The great 15th up into the dune follows and then its another up and over the hill tee shot at 16 followed by the blind second at 17.
Its not hilly but its not flat either.
3,4,11,12,13 and 18 are the only truly flat holes - aside from the par three's 5 and 10.
Its time you came down for yourself to see it. Free accommodation, free golf, cheap food and a cheap dollar - and sun!

[Scott Whitley]

Royal Dublin is very flat.

[CJ Carder]

Going on my limited overseas experience, I'll throw Carnoustie into the discussion.  Not sure where it'd fall on a "greatest courses" list but I would like to play it again if given the chance.

[Will MacEwen]

Perhaps some of the Aussies can offer more, but Kingston Heath jumps to mind.

Here, in Canada, Donald Ross' Essex must be at the top of the list of the "best flat courses". St. Charles, in Winnipeg, is pretty flat too, featuring 9 from Ross and 9 from Alister Mackenzie.

After that... not much, here.

I like Big Sky in Pemberton.  It may be best flat in BC.

[Sean Leary]

Will,

I thought of Big Sky as well.

[Mark_F]

Mark,

Spring Valley is close to being as flat - or as undulating - at Kingston Heath. Neither is as flat as Metropolitan. 6,7,8,10,11,15 and 18 at Spring Valley have some interesting undulation changes.

Mike,

It's been a long time since I was at Spring Valley - shows how much I remember.  I have never seen Metro.

3,4,11,12,13 and 18 are the only truly flat holes - aside from the par three's 5 and 10.

Interesting that, bar 15, the flat holes are the best at KH.

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

I cant think of much elevation change at either of the Walton Heath courses..but it is quite a long time since I played there...

[Mark Bourgeois]

Dead flat courses are of interest as almost by definition they ought to be high VORD and therefore worthy of study.

Three to consider:
Sacred Nine
Links at Hope Island
Jockey Club

Come to think of it, aren't most courses associated with polo or horse racing flat?

Here are a few so associated, are they flat?
Royal Joburg
Musselburgh
Jockey Club
Riviera

Mark

[Mark_Rowlinson]

Mark,

Great Yarmouth and Caister would qualify as a flat race-course course, Ludlow is another. Not so Northumberland which starts and finishes with a down and up. Royal Ascot has moved to another site, I think. There's a little (par 3?) course inside Warwick racecourse.

I think there is too much rise and fall on the 2nd and 5th at Walton Heath Old to be termed truly flat, and the 18th returns over a depression. The 16th descends before sweeping up to that marvellous green and the 17th is more or less across a valley. The 13th climbs and the 14th descends.

[Mark Bourgeois]

Agree on Walton Heath Old and New -- it may not be far from Epsom but Epsom is far from flat, at least the steeplechase!

[Gene Greco]

       I don't remember Portmarnock having much elevation change.

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

So Mark..what you are really saying is...mwp you are wrong!
but what a wonderfully polite way of saying it

Thats okay the threee points United secured in such marvelous fashion on Sunday will keep me smiling...and wonderfully content.

[Mark_Rowlinson]

Isn't Epsom on the flat? I don't think they do steeplechase there, but I am not a horsey person so I could well be all too wrong.

[Jeff_Mingay]

Jeff.

Kingston Heath is relatively flat - but you play up and over small hills at the 1st and the 8th holes as well as with the second at 14.  The great 15th up into the dune follows and then its another up and over the hill tee shot at 16 followed by the blind second at 17.
Its not hilly but its not flat either.
3,4,11,12,13 and 18 are the only truly flat holes - aside from the par three's 5 and 10.
Its time you came down for yourself to see it. Free accommodation, free golf, cheap food and a cheap dollar - and sun!

Mike,

If you put me on an excavator for a week or more to do a few bunkers at one of your projects, I may be able to offset all of my expenses 

[Andrew Mitchell]

Isn't Epsom on the flat? I don't think they do steeplechase there, but I am not a horsey person so I could well be all too wrong.

Mark
I'm not really into horse racing either but I do know that although Epsom is a course on which flat racing is held it is not a flat course

From watching the Derby from time to time the commentator always seems to make reference to how horses cope with the downhill gradient of Tattenham hill.  They then run uphill to the finishing line.

[Mark_Rowlinson]

Andrew, I didn't phrase it very well. I know that the course is hilly, but I don't think it has jumps, which is what I assume steeplechasing involves.

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