Architects and grassing choices

[Don_Mahaffey]

Carter,
27 degrees here on the coast this morning. Coldest it's been in my three years here. I'm happy about it because I need to clean up some weeds anyhow and now it'll be easy and cheaper. I'm guessing you've got to be at least 5 degrees colder than us, so if it's going to be green now its either overseeded or painted.

[jeffwarne]

Palmetto went for the ultradwarf  2 years ago-
no need to overseed-just paint.
No doubt there are better modern grasses now and it makes a super's life a bit easier to eradicate the common bermuda, but I do question whether the new greens don't need to be overseeded in winter.
The problem I see it in a region where it's regularly cold at night ( 20's are common) is no growth equals a surface that eventually gets beaten up and super fast----fast and bumpy is a bad combo.

I of course understand not overseeding the first year to give the new grass a chance to establish itself.

When I heard the proposal I inquired about the fifth green which is quite severe,but playable at 8-9 (the speed palmetto's greens always were)
They assured me they would not have to alter that green.

I played there in Novemeber (they had had some cold nights)and every ball we played or putted on the 5th hole rolled back to our feet.
I'd hate to see that green in February.
Additionally the greens were quite bumpy(in fairness they are new greens)-which isn't a big deal at slower speeds, but at 11 it's rough.
I'm not an expert, but grass that isn't growing,yet bearing traffic, is going to wear down and get slick,and/or bumpy with no growth for 3-6 months.
Why waste the paint?

Yet the fairways were overseeded-so where's the savings?

I think members get sold on the greens will be fast idea and supers on the no overseed idea (which no doubt eliminates transitions), and architects on getting paid, and grass salesman on the same, and we end up with greens very different than the original
architect intended.
The good news is Rhett Baker the super is excellent and no doubt will get it all sorted out -I just hope the speed hounds don't overwhelm him.

I got my newsletter last week---the most likely option is changing the 5th green.
How about lightly overseed the greens and not the fairways?

I rarely see greens any better than we used to get on the old traditional rye overseed on dormant bermuda-or poatriviallis or bent overseed at higher end clubs.
Yet I see a lot of crappy painted greens-and crappy bent greens in the south. Forest Hills in Augusta rendered their greens unplayable by redoing and regrassing them.
I really can't remember anyone saying they weren't going back to Palmetto because the greens were too slow.

I don't mean Florida where it's only cold for a bit-I mean in the Atlanta-Augusta-regions.

[Jeff_Brauer]

In my experience there are so many "experts" on any given job its hard to say the gca gets the call on grasses anymore.  Besides the super, with his/her experience, there is usually an agronomist on the project, too.  Either or both can be influenced by the sales pitch, although most have so much at stake (their jobs and reputations) that I can't say I have seen more than a few cases where either spec'd something because he was taken to dinner.

Sometimes club members have strong preferences based on something they have played, whether or not its suitable agronomically for their site and budget.

If the job is a bid job, the Contractor often pushes for what is its cheapest grass as an "or equal."  And, if you are sodding, unless you plan a year or more in advance to grow the sod you want, you might be at the mercy of the local sod growers for an exact species.

All I can say is the grassing choice doesn't seem to be made until its discussed over and over.....and over and over....and ov....well, you get the idea.  As a gca, we have to sometimes design to the lowest common denominator - or flatter slopes if we think a faster grass might be chosen, or a tender grass (high points dry out first) etc.  Flatter is always safer, if not better design.

[John Chilver-Stainer]

When it comes to choosing grass types I always involve an agronomist experienced in the golf turf environment but also allow the greenkeeper an input on the choices. 

Since I’ve gained a lot of experience in different climate environments and soil conditions I usually have a fairly clear ideas what kind of grasses I would like, to meet the needs of the golf course playability, aesthetics and maintenance sustainability ( available water and machine types). More often than not I get the grasses of my choice.

Frequently a spectrum of grass types are included in the mix, which will allow the stronger grasses to come through and also allow the greenkeeper the oppurtunity to influence the dominant grass type to suit his maintenance program.

However the agronomist will always get the last word, as it will be up to him to monitor the golf course and advise the greenkeeper (and future greenkeepers) over the ensuing years

[Lester George]

Ditto Tom Doak on letting supers have autonomy of choices! I just had one not make it to opening day as well. 

I like to think I am on the cutting edge of selecting grasses but I ALWAYS remind the client that the long term playing characteristics should dictate the grasses.  Those grasses are likely to be there beyond the supers tenure. 

Not the "in thing" and definitely not the thing "I have been doing for the last 30 years".

I make supers demonstrate results oriented evidence of success before I agree to grass.  I do collaborate, but I rely on my sense of client satisfaction of the past twenty years and my judgment  before signing off on grasses.

Lester

[Don_Mahaffey]

I know most supts suggest the use of certain grass because they believe it’s the best fit. To suggest that they make recommendations based on perks from a seed guy or because it’s the only grass they can maintain is ludicrous and insulting. It's a professional decision based on experience, research, and the architects input on playability and aesthetics.

And Lester, believe it or not most supers ALSO have a history of client satisfaction, that's how most of us stay employed. Collaboration is important and if we do a good job, the grass we pick will out last us all. I think you'll find most supers understand this and do look at the long term playing characteristics. If you've found that not to be the case, you're not finding the right superintendents.

[Lester George]

Don,

I have always approached every client with the super in mind and how they wanted the golf course to play. 

I was merely commenting on one that didn't make it to opening and (as background) had we gone with what he was recommending, the client would have been in a real pinch, as the assistant was left holding the bag.  I am lucky to say that we did COLLABORATE and reach agreement on grasses that survived the upheaval.

If my response sounded like I take autonomy, I said it wrong.  I don't.  I think you should know that, as in my business, the cream rises to the top and some supers are a cut above.  I have been fortunate to work with some of the best and some of the worst and learned something from both.  I agree that most have a history of client satisfaction, some don't.

Lester

[Jeff_Brauer]

Don,

If you are referring to my post, I said I only recall a few cases where seed suppliers seemed to influence the super, not that it was commonplace.  A decision based on experience is the most common way to decide grasses. 

The biggest problems are that all they players on a team may have different experiences AND there are just so many choices of grasses available, some with such minute differences that it is hard to know if there would be substantial difference in performance for a given course.

As discussed earlier, for bermuda greens, there is Champions, Mini Verde, TifEagle, Emerald and for a few low budget courses, even Tif Dwarf comes under consideration.  For bent, there must be 2 dozen choices now - A's, G's, L's, SR's and Penn's each have a few variants to consider and mix and match, and so on.  In the old days, it was just bent vs. bermuda!

[paul cowley]

I have to admit that I have an Obama-esque fascination with all things Paspalum.

I'm pushing it in the hope that it will succeed....probably too much and I hope it will not come back to bite me.

I was one of the first to use mini-verdi in the olden daze of six or so years ago.....convinced by the fine Super....Billy Ford.

One of the primary reasons was because of its cold tolerance.....the course was outside of Greenville SC.

An unexpected benefit came the first winter, an outcome of deciding to not over seed the young stand of grass.....many of the members liked the dormant surface better than the actively growing.

Billy would mow during warm spells and roll when needed.

I just played last month a new course of ours that is yet to open outside of Savannah....mini verdi greens and tifsport most everyplace else, and we have had a couple of hard freezes.

The mini verdi was a strong green [growing] color with a purple haze....and the sport was broom straw colored.

I like that mini verdi grass too.

[Lyne Morrison]

Paul - would your 'Obama-esque fascination with all things Paspalum' extend to knowledge of its cold tolerance? I have been googling on and off recently and haven't found anything specific re temperatures other than 'improved cold tolerance' or similar.

My question is how low can we go??  would several overnight -3 temps for approx 3 months, with the odd -5 to -7 cold snap, still be feasible? (or shall we call it roughly 20 - 25 degrees) -- perhaps this is too fine / not realistic?

('Obama-esque fascination' -- a lot of folk down here have caught that bug too)

Thanks in advance.

Cheers -- Lyne

[Mark Chaplin]

What does it cost to seed an 18 hole golf course with modern grass seed?

[paul cowley]

Paul - would your 'Obama-esque fascination with all things Paspalum' extend to knowledge of its cold tolerance? I have been googling on and off recently and haven't found anything specific re temperatures other than 'improved cold tolerance' or similar.

My question is how low can we go??  would several overnight -3 temps for approx 3 months, with the odd -5 to -7 cold snap, still be feasible? (or shall we call it roughly 20 - 25 degrees) -- perhaps this is too fine / not realistic?









('Obama-esque fascination' -- a lot of folk down here have caught that bug too)

Thanks in advance.

Cheers -- Lyne

Lyne....I am far from the go to person.....but my common sense tells me that cold tolerant paspalum varieties ought to be similar to bermuda, which bumps down towards zero and brief periods below.

I doubt it will survive in a frozen ground situation for long.....if at all.

[Dave_Wilber]

A good friend directed me to this topic and I feel bad for posting, because I'm not as active as i should be here.

For some background on this, it might help to read my Feature Interview on GCA. Ran (and others) was very interested in my process and I tried to put it in words.

A couple of comments about this discussion.....

Don Mahaffey makes really good points and I would say that Supers (and agronomists) are less likely to be swayed by a pitch and more likely to be interested in results. To be true, and I know this has trailed off as construction has declined, seed companies and grass producers often and regularly marketed right at Golf Course Architects. It seemed to make sense to the suppliers as the architects were the ones specing grasses. But there is a little more to that..... and really, none of us want to talk about this much, but it happens to be true...in many people's minds (owners, members, etc) the architect is looked at as the "real" expert...one everything.

I've seen a few well chosen words (or poorly chosen words) from an architect have way more total weight than the superintendent's or even mine as a paid consultant. Grass guys get this treatment often and it really sucks.

Having said that, Supers (and don't forget, I was a Super, so I think I can speak on this) are often grass geeks to the max and their talk can baffle, confuse and render non-turf people with a lot of talk. Talk often equals gossip. Certainly I've had to correct some wrongly placed words here on GCA and on Turfnet, etc. Supers are often good at giving away 80% of the info and keeping that 20% that may make a difference to themselves. And the truth is, we rarely really know the exact details of anyone's program...and the turf choice can get the blame, when there are a zillion other factors involved. I hate stereotypical comments about varieties and steer clear of this kind of talk. However, this doesn't mean that you shouldn't know the real characteristics of grasses from type to type and from cultivar to cultivar. I work really hard to see a lot of grass and to stay up to speed on this. Yes, marketing comes into play, but I take a personal challenge to look past that and stay well ahead of the salesmonkeys.

That's the last point I have time to make...Super, bless their hearts, often are at work at one place, in one climate so much that they don't get to see enough. I'm always busting on my guys about going to see other places. Get out. See the turf. I can't describe the fairways and greens at Pacific Dunes. One has to see them. Pics aren't enough. You (we) all know this. So when I've seen as much as I have and I get hired to spec a job and the local guy is telling me I'm wrong, my first question is going to be something along the lines of "what have you seen? where have you been?. My second question is going to be, "where are your trials". There is no excuse for not having grass trials going on all the time to see what works and what doesn't in a particular area. Often supers who do this learn that what they have taken as Gospel is in fact, just Gossip.

I commend architects for taking this on, job after job. I too get frustrated. I heard the other day that a project of mine changed supers and that super is now introducing a grass variety that I stayed clear of for that project. It's not my place to call and react, but I want to. Badly. Very tough.

Thanks for reading...great topic here!!

[TEPaul]

Dave Wilber:

I haven't spoken with you in a long time. Please call me or email me---I have a few interesting things I'd like to run by you.

Tom Paul
610-353-0568
tpaul25737@aol.com

[Clyde Johnston]

I don't know about the cold tolerance of paspalum but word around here is that it's a tougher grass and you have to sharpen your reel mowers more often. And they don't last as long.

[Dave_Wilber]

Dave Wilber:

I haven't spoken with you in a long time. Please call me or email me---I have a few interesting things I'd like to run by you.

Tom Paul
610-353-0568
tpaul25737@aol.com

Tom,

DaveWilber@yahoo.com
916.276.1848

[Anthony_Nysse]

I found this article on www.nicklaus.com from Sebonack GC superintendent, Garret Boddington

"For the greens, Bodington asked around, and once again benefited from local experience. "On the greens we have A4 which is obviously a Cadillac. Laurel Links, which is a new golf course on Long Island and Friars Head both have that and I just talked with two local guys that have used this grass and what the advantages and disadvantages of it are, so it seems to work pretty well out here," says Bodington. "Tom Doak likes to add a lot of humps and bumps in the greens so he wanted to go with an older variety, but I said we have the technology, this is a proven great grass, why don't we go with this. I just knew with the clientele we had here I'd rather put in a grass that if I had to let it get slower it would get slower but it wouldn't be that difficult to get it going fast."

Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt.
Colonial CC
Ft. Worth, TX

[Jeff_Brauer]

Dave is right about the amount of time gca's spend on grassing choices, which I alluded to.  I find it hard to believe that I spend more time discussing the virture of grass varieties now than my college roomates did back in the 70's.......

He hints at another factor that generally does make the superintendent the key person in the decision making process - if they don't have confidence in a particular grass choice, its not as likely to do as well as one they do have choice in, so I often side with them.  I know that the course will outlive the super's term there in many cases, but who can surmise what and who will happen down the line?  And, chances are, with the USGA recommending greens rebuilds on a 15 year cycle, that at least those grasses, and probably others, can and will have the opportunity to be changed out later. 

There are really two levels of discussion on grass choices - big picture things like bent greens in the south, or the cost of sodding zoyzia vs. seeding something else in the fw in the transition zone, which is really a construction cost issue, or bent vs. blue fw up north, which is really a maintenance cost issue, with bent percieved as being "too expensive"  for many public courses.

The discussion really heats up in many cases after the basic decision on which type of bent or bermuda to use on the greens.  With so many choices, so much on the line, etc. it is a hard choice.  I wonder if it should be? 

In some ways, its kind of like choosing paint colors or doorknobs in  a house remodel.  You obsess about it because you have never really thought about it before, but you have sure lived with whatever you used to have without a lot of complaints or thought, no?  The house will still function if you choose lemon yellow vs mango yellow paint, and so will the green, if the big picture choices are made correctly.

Some players have putted on some great, say A4 greens, and "just gotta have it"  but is their limited experience a result of turf choice, time of year, or superintendents skill?  These new greens grasses require more dilligent (and slightly different from each other) maintenance practices to attain their best playing quality, but a good super with appropriate resources will get almost any green surface to pretty good shape, and it would be hard to know if another choice would have been better. (of turf, not supers)

The discussions should focus on agronomic adaptation of each turf for a particular course/site - some have better shade tolerances on shady courses, some are more heat tolerant in the southern zones, etc.  But, after that, the long term costs of the maintenance practices of each turf should be considered more than some mostly mythical possibility of a better putting surface, at least for 80% of the courses out there.  Some turfs that are said to be slightly inferior to others often require a lot less grooming on a daily basis for "average" conditions. 

I guess the short version is that when you start talking greens grasses (and others) you can lock yourself into thousands of dollars of extra maintenance cost per year to attain "perfect" putting surfaces.  And those are real dollars, vs. a perception that you have the best greens in town because of turf choice, vs. superintendent skill.





If the course

[Jerry Lemons]

Jeff, Your right about so many factors affecting the grassing decisions, some that are just perception.  I will say that my experience with grass section has been a collaborated effort if a good was on board and cared or if the owner really had a strong opinion.

We are going though this now on Rarity Club here in Tennessee. I have pushed zoysia of fairways and L93 on greens because regionally they are proven to be the best (IMHO)  grasses for many factors.

One thing I will say is that 5% of the cutting edge Supers will be the leades who try new grasses and prove they work before sticking their necks out. The other guys who follow, well they can cut your throat and make your choices look idiotic. I have seen just about everything tried (except Paspalum) which Paul Cowley, I hope to see this summer.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Jerry,

Yeah, but you need to revise your putting green speed chart for L93, LS 44, etc. etc. etc. because I am sure they all putt so much faster than the other!

Just kidding.....

I had great success with L93 at Colbert Hills in a similar transition zone.  Of course, everyone is now pushing L96-2 and LS44 as better successors and I have used that.  As you say, early results are good, but who knows down the line?

[Jerry Lemons]

Jeff , I have told you that regardless of the grass surface, a 10' stimpmeter reading is 10'- rye, bent, bermuda, concrete dirt, Brauer hybrid sensimellia, it doesnt' matter!

I do like to look at the new grasses and consider them. I am still amazed how many supt's still want Penncross?

Jerry