[Michael Whitaker]

For those of you who have played the Plantation Course at Kapalua... what do you think about these comments by D.J. Trahan (another former Clemson golfer  )

D.J. is -10 and in 2nd place after two rounds of the Mercedes Championship, so he must be doing something right. I like his attitude... that you have take what the course gives you.

Q: How does this course fit your game?

D.J. TRAHAN: I don't know if this course fits anybody's game. I think you just have to take this course for what it is, because I don't think we see anything remotely close to this throughout the year. It's just there's so much up-and-down, there's so many sidehill lies. The greens are just wild and crazy. So, I mean, you kind of just have to come here this week and accept the course for what it is, play the course the way it asks to be played, because this course demands that you play it a certain way. There's really no way around it.

If you can hit the shots, and maybe make some putts, you'll be right in there to contend. So I think you really just have to, like I said, take this place for what it presents you and then try and go from there.

[TEPaul]

Trahan doesn't seem to be too specific in what he says but watching the tournament it has got to be that there is a whole lot more bounce and rollout and filitering of the ball all over that course including around and on the greens than those guys generally see and play.

With something like that to that degree those players just have to kind of feel the course and its slopes and rolls and intuitively trust the ground to do with the ball what they think it might.

By the way, what we are seeing, for players of that caliber, is THE IMM, no question about it!!!

What those guys are experiencing in a strategic and shot value context is something like that old auto racing analogy of a driver at the limit of adhesion of his tires with the road. They used to say the best way to feel that limit of adhesion was in the seat of your pants! 

[Bill_McBride]

For anyone who wants a less expensive trip to experience the wild terrain and huge, sprawling, contoured greens of Kapalua, take a trip to Austin and play Coore & Crenshaw's first joint effort, the Cliffside course at Barton Creek.  It has similar greens although the overall course is a lot shorter.

I've said before that it's amazing how little love the C&C course at Barton Creek gets compared to the Fazio yawners.  The half a dozen front to back greens there are as much fun as any you've played this side of Oakmont.  More fun really because they are running 8-9 rather than Oakmont's nightmarish 12. 

This tournament at Kapalua is very interesting every January because you won't see the knockdown shots Camilo Villegas was hitting at any other PGA tour stops.  Terrific stuff.

[Tom_Doak]

It's not just the rollout.  It's also:

2.  Bigger elevation changes than on any other course they play, which makes dialing in the yardage for an approach shot very difficult.

3.  Grain on the grens that significantly affects the speed of putts ... and the grain usually runs in the same direction as the severe tilts.  Years ago a pro told me that the greens at Kapalua were "2 on the Stimpmeter when you're putting uphill, and 20 when you're putting downhill".  It's an exaggeration, but factoring in the changing speeds is more difficult than anywhere else I know of.

4.  It's a very windy place, which compounds all three effects listed above.

[RJ_Daley]

I always look forward to seeing it as the first venue of the year.  Somehow it seems just right for such a season opening event, with all the dramatic views, and different big and bold sort of design.

[Rich Goodale]

How do we reconcile DJ's statement that.....

"So, I mean, you kind of just have to come here this week and accept the course for what it is, play the course the way it asks to be played, because this course demands that you play it a certain way. There's really no way around it."

...with the seemingly common belief on this site that C&C courses offer many strategic options?

[BCrosby]

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say D.J. Trahan is not the last word on golf architecture.

It's not just a group psychosis that C&C courses offer wide playing options.

The expanse of the Plantation course jumps from the teeevee. Players without PGA tour cards, people who do not feel obligated to force birdies on every hole, have extraordinary playing choices at the Plantation Course.

Bob

[Kyle Harris]

Rich,

The course may demand that one make correct strategic decisions...

[RJ_Daley]

Rich, Trahan majored in sports management, not logic.  Is this to hence forth be known as the Goodale or Trahan paradox?  

[Rich Goodale]

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say D.J. Trahan is not the last word on golf architecture.

It's not just a group psychosis that C&C courses offer wide playing options.

The expanse of the Plantation course jumps from the teeevee. Players without PGA tour cards, people who do not feel obligated to force birdies on every hole, have extraordinary playing choices at the Plantation Course.

Bob

Let's not get too tetchy here Bob.  Trahan may not be the last word on GCA but he certainly should be allowed his word(s), should he not?  I'd guess he knows more about how the course in playing this week, and what options it offers and shots it demands than anybody watching on the telly, but I could be wrong.....

Rich

[Peter Pallotta]

This is interesting.  Can it be that the roll-out, elevation changes, contour and grain, and wind come together to indeed create one ideal line of play on each hole (for the best players in the world trying to shoot the best possible score) but the exact opposite for the vast majority of the rest of us?

Is DJ experiencing and describing the former, and am I seeing and imagining the latter?

Peter

[BCrosby]

Peter -

I think Trahan has got it - as we used to say in junior high - ass backwards.

I think what he is really saying is that The Plantation Course is one of the few courses where taking the correct angle into the green still matters, even for long knocker pros like him.

Due to the combination of course design, wind, length, elevation changes, f&f condtions, the architecture matters. Even he needs to pay attention to it.

That's not something he is accustomed to doing. So he is flummoxed. And doesn't quite know why.

Bob 

[Mike Nuzzo]

It doesn't seem like he likes it - from his words.
But sure does from his score.

[Rich Goodale]

I wish I could be flummoxed into shooting -10 every couple of days.......

[BCrosby]

Trahan reminds me of my son when he first learned to ride a bicycle.

He knew how to ride quite well, but he couldn't figure out why he stayed upright. So he didn't like it at first and kept wanting to go back to training wheels where the physics were more obvious.

However well he plays, Trahan is clearly uncomfortable and wants to get back to the usual PGA Tour architectural fare. I'd guess he isn't the only player at the tournie this week that feels that way.

Bob

[Rich Goodale]

Bob

Surprisingly I interpret Trahan's comments differently.  
Maybe you know DJ and feel entitled to belittle his understanding of the game of golf, including its courses.  I do not know him, and am willing to take him at his word, and seek to try to understand what he is saying.  Vive la difference.

I interpret what he is saying to mean that the game of golf is becoming simplistic for those who are truly skilled in it and all its nuances, in fact so skilled that courses which were designed by the finest architects of their day, even those so done in the past 15 years, are now no different, strategically, to the finest players than the average muni.

The first obvious manifestation of this phenomenon was the 2000 Open at St. Andrews, when Tiger dsimantled the course with his stinger and a plan.  He knew what the course was "giving" him, and he exploited that knowledge to break the Open record and beat the greatest other golfers in the world by 8 shots.  Tiger did the same thing again at Hoylake in 2006--probably the greatest display of strategic golf I have ever seen.

Trahan, whether he knows it or not (unlike you, I think he does) is doing exactly what Tiger has done--analysing the course, identifying what it does and does not "give" him, and putting together and executing a game plan which exploits its understanding of these analyses.  I do not think that there is a course in the world that is not today "vulnerable" to the expert golfer with a brain and courage to listen to his (or her) brain.  To these people there really are no "options" on any golf course any more, except in the planning stage.  The quality of equipment and training and the subsequent accuracy of execution is so finely tuned that width or lack thereof or hazards or maintenance standards are just variables, which can be dealt with.  Even pyschology is being relatively mastered by most of the best players.

This does not, of course mean that you and I and the other hackers out there on GCA.com cannot enjoy our frailties and our love of courses that tempt us to forget that we are frail.  Just please just do not attrribute our frailties to those who actually know how to play the game for a living.  They play to live--we live to play.  These are very different things.

Cheers

Rich

[Kyle Harris]

Rich,

The key word in your statement is executing. Is it possible that Tiger would have won the Opens you cite in the manner he did if his execution that week were less than precise? How would have plan of action changed given a different set of circumstances?

[Mark Pearce]

Kyle,

I'm not Rich, and wouldn't speak for him, but surely the point is that any of the World top 100 (and maybe further than that), on their day can execute every shot precisely.  How often does a professional tounament, on a course you and I would struggle to beat 100 yield a score of, say, 63 or better?  I'd guess 90% of the time.  Remember, These Guys are Good!

[Rich Goodale]

Kyle

What Mark said.  He's not me, but damn close!

Rich

[Kyle Harris]

So wait....

What defines a good golfer if shooting 63 is such a bad thing?

[Rich Goodale]

Kyle

The question is not what defines a good golfer but what defines a good golf course.  My argument is that for the pros the line between good and bad is shrinking, and for we hackers it is getting terribly blurred, in part because there is such a disconnect these days betweeen what we can do (and do do) vs. the pros.

Rich

[Michael Whitaker]

Please, guys, let's not attack D.J. for his comments. I just thought it was interesting that he found the course to be so different from their usual venues.

I know D.J. and I don't think he is commenting on the quality of the design, per se. He is commenting on how one goes about generating the lowest score on this particular course.

In most tournaments the pros can take a hell bent attitude and attack the course, blasting the ball down the fairway, birdie hunting on every hole... they are in charge.

At Kapalua D.J. is saying that the course is in charge and he has to navigate his way around ...and accept the course for what it is, play the course the way it asks to be played, because this course demands that you play it a certain way. There's really no way around it.[i/]

Bob - My only comment about playing choices is... from watching on TV it does seem that most of the guys are trying to hit a very narrow range of spots off the tee to catch the best roll or kick. I've observed that when they don't hit those narrow spots they often miss the fairway completely. I'm know this is very different than most of us would experience at Kapaula due to the pro's extreme length. It's not a comment on the design... just an observation on the way they are playing the course.

[Will MacEwen]

I interpreted him to be saying you have to accept that the course plays differently and just go with the flow - accept the differences and adapt.

[Jeff Tang]

It's not just the rollout.  It's also:

2.  Bigger elevation changes than on any other course they play, which makes dialing in the yardage for an approach shot very difficult.

3.  Grain on the grens that significantly affects the speed of putts ... and the grain usually runs in the same direction as the severe tilts.  Years ago a pro told me that the greens at Kapalua were "2 on the Stimpmeter when you're putting uphill, and 20 when you're putting downhill".  It's an exaggeration, but factoring in the changing speeds is more difficult than anywhere else I know of.

4.  It's a very windy place, which compounds all three effects listed above.

I agree with the elevation changes.  Similar to Augusta I think the TV shots make it difficult to tell just how up and down that course is, a very wild ride.  I have seen some shots this year on the Golf Channel, however, that offer a really cool perspective which I think gives the viewer some idea of the elevation changes, different than in years past (ie, camera shots from behind #9 tee, the shots showing the tee shots roll down the hill on #6).

Regarding Tom's comments and the greens, has anyone played the greens both before and after they re-did them?  I want to say that I heard they re-did the greens a few years ago, maybe 5-6 years (?).  I played the Plantation over 10 years ago on the old greens and I thought they were really good then, very quick.  Just curious how the new compare to the old.

[Tom Dunne]

This is why going to a practice round of a Tour event is such an illuminating experience. I remember watching Aaron Baddeley a couple of days before the '04 Open at Shinnecock commenced, trying out all kinds of different shots around the 5th green. Spinners, little pitches, flops...he just went around from spot to spot, dropped a ball and experimented.

By the time these guys get on the course and the cameras are turned on, they've done their homework and are thinking less about options and more about execution, but they still have a pretty sharp understanding of what those options are.

FWIW, I think Trahan's comment regarding Kapalua demands to be played "a certain way" was his wind-up for the real point, which was "take what it gives you." I think that's accurate as far as it goes--there are some hanging lies on the Plantation from which even the pros can't hit every shot their imagination might call up with the success rate that they'd want.

Anyway, Geoff Ogilvy is putting on a course management clinic so far--he'll hit an iron off the tee on 9, then try to drive the green on 14.  Just from the telecast it's obvious that Kapalua offers plenty of options even to the pros.

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