News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Ran Morrissett

  • Karma: +0/-0
California Golf Club prior to Kyle Phillips's recent work
« on: January 08, 2009, 08:15:31 PM »
The California Golf Club has come farther, faster than any course with which I am familiar. Second place would probably go to Sleepy Hollow which we profiled in the winter of 2007.

Today’s version is (hopefully at least!) well documented in its new course profile. Below are four photos to give you a sense from where it came.



The former mighty third as seen above in the 1980s and no, MacKenzie wasn’t behind the water fountain. Compare this downhill par three to the photos of today’s third in the profile.



The approach to the ninth in 2003 is ho-hum. As it stands today, the hole is perhaps my favorite hole on a course full of standout holes. Compare the background above including the former practice area fence  :-\ with the backdrop of today.



The ponds and two dimensional bunkers mean it could be anywhere. Does anyone confuse the above with a Golden Age design? I think not. Remember too: MacKenzie’s influence was once (and is again thanks to Kyle) particularly strong here at both the 11th and 18th as they are in full view below the clubhouse.



The photo quality is poor relative to the ones in the profile so, yes, it is easy to throw the twelfth under the bus based on the above. However, even once you begin to focus on the features, it still is - literally  ;) - in the shadow of the stately one shotter of today.

Give Kyle and his team and everyone involved credit – this is an absolutely startlingly  :o transformation.

Honestly too, for all us architecture junkies, isn’t this GREAT to see such quality work going on during our lifetime? To me, it’s inspiring seeing a 300 plus acre canvas returned to a work of art.

Cheers,

Mark Bourgeois

Re: California Golf Club prior to Kyle Phillips's recent work
« Reply #1 on: January 08, 2009, 08:41:34 PM »
How bout this:

3rd before


3rd after




9th before


9th after




11th / 18th before


11th / 18th after



Mark

TX Golf

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: California Golf Club prior to Kyle Phillips's recent work
« Reply #2 on: January 08, 2009, 09:06:48 PM »
It really is an amazing transformation.... I am still hoping someone might be able to post a few pictures of the course prior to the tree removal program a while back, as they removed a few thousand trees then as well. (those 2003 pictures are leaps and bounds better than the course was just a few years prior to them). There were so many trees at one point you couldn't see from one fairway to another. In the old days you never had to buy golf balls in the pro shop if you just walked to course after a storm, in which dozens of balls would fall from the trees above.

Josh... Do you happen to have any photos of the courses back in the 90s??

Robert

This is a picture from the Cal Club Pics Thread.

12 after
http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l7/jcfsmith/IMG_0406.jpg
« Last Edit: January 08, 2009, 10:04:45 PM by Robert Warren »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: California Golf Club prior to Kyle Phillips's recent work
« Reply #3 on: January 08, 2009, 10:19:35 PM »
What puzzles me is how did the course go from its unique MacKenzie bunkers to the circular/bland bunkers ?

Mike_Cirba

Re: California Golf Club prior to Kyle Phillips's recent work
« Reply #4 on: January 08, 2009, 10:57:43 PM »
Ran,

Your mention of Sleepy Hollow deserves a thread of its own.

The changes from the time I played there 5 years back to what is there today are simply terrific and almost enough can't be said.

If it's possible for a course to go up a full two points that's what I think has almost been achieved.

Lyne Morrison

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: California Golf Club prior to Kyle Phillips's recent work
« Reply #5 on: January 08, 2009, 10:58:44 PM »

Ran - thanks for the CGC threads and Mark for the direct comparisons - inspiring indeed...

'but the revelation that lies in the mists ahead is form that reveals true beauty'. - M Behr

Cheers -- Lyne

Joel_Stewart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: California Golf Club prior to Kyle Phillips's recent work
« Reply #6 on: January 09, 2009, 12:58:48 AM »
Makes you wonder how do they get their water?   I would have assumed the lakes where functional and they used them as a water source but now it appears they were just ornamental.

Neil_Crafter

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: California Golf Club prior to Kyle Phillips's recent work
« Reply #7 on: January 09, 2009, 02:44:31 AM »
Excellent stuff Ran and Mark
Pat, I suspect its "ease of maintenance" and lack of interest in the historical pedigree that results in bunkers being simplified like this. Tree growth and intrusion over the years seems not to get noticed by those playing a course regularly.

Lyne
I can see you are a Max Behr fan!

Neil

Lyne Morrison

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: California Golf Club prior to Kyle Phillips's recent work
« Reply #8 on: January 09, 2009, 05:51:15 AM »

Neil - hello  :)

An intriguing man, such a fertile mind - I'd like to learn more about him.

That said, I am still pondering on whether he is most revealing before or after a good McLaren Vale red.

Cheers, Lyne

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: California Golf Club prior to Kyle Phillips's recent work
« Reply #9 on: January 09, 2009, 07:44:41 AM »
Makes you wonder how do they get their water?   I would have assumed the lakes where functional and they used them as a water source but now it appears they were just ornamental.

Those lakes wouldn't help much as a water source even in the SF, CA area - you always need a well, stream capture (not likely in CA under law) or city water feed (fresh or effluent) to recharge any lake.  Even then, those ponds would need to be 2-3 acres at least depending on the quantity and reliability of the source.

It appears to me - and I could be wrong - that these were simply added to generate fill for other construction projects.

I don't know much about the California Club, having skipped playing after celebrating my hole in one on the duel hole at SFCC the day before........
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Patrick_Mucci

Re: California Golf Club prior to Kyle Phillips's recent work
« Reply #10 on: January 09, 2009, 08:30:48 AM »
Neil Crafter,

Is maintainance an impediment to preserving unique architectural features ?

I would think so.

If that's the case, it would seem that times of financial down turns are the most dangerous when it comes to preserving unique architectural features.

Are we about to enter one of those phases where lack of funds and maintainance practices will SIGNIFICANTLY alter GCA ?

Neil_Crafter

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: California Golf Club prior to Kyle Phillips's recent work
« Reply #11 on: January 09, 2009, 03:47:47 PM »
Patrick
We may well be, especially bunkers as all the supers I know keep banging on about the high costs involved in maintaining them, especially those that are not simplified and have some level of architectural interest. Ground contours less at threat.

Jeff_Mingay

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: California Golf Club prior to Kyle Phillips's recent work
« Reply #12 on: January 09, 2009, 04:55:54 PM »
Jeff B.,

You celebrated your hole in one at SFGC so "hard" that you couldn't make your tee time at CGC?!

Impressive  ;)
jeffmingay.com

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: California Golf Club prior to Kyle Phillips's recent work
« Reply #13 on: January 09, 2009, 07:00:55 PM »
Patrick, Your points are well taken, but, don't you think there's more to it than just the category of maintenance?

Information about these finer points, clearing trees, opening up space) was not readily available back then. Now that Ran's creation allows anyone, who has a thirst for knowledge on the subject, can actually see photos of the differences. What Ran has done here, does a great job of not only illustrating the finer points, but should cause anyone in a position to benefit from this education, to implement it at their club. (Where applicable)

"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Ian Andrew

Re: California Golf Club prior to Kyle Phillips's recent work
« Reply #14 on: January 09, 2009, 08:10:12 PM »
Hats off to everyone involved - after seeing these photos - I'm even more impressed with end results.

Regards,

Ian

Patrick_Mucci

Re: California Golf Club prior to Kyle Phillips's recent work
« Reply #15 on: January 09, 2009, 10:27:59 PM »

Patrick, Your points are well taken, but, don't you think there's more to it than just the category of maintenance?

I'm not sure I understand your question.
Could you elaborate on it.


Information about these finer points, clearing trees, opening up space) was not readily available back then.

Again, I'm not so sure that I understand your point.
Clearing trees was very well understood in the early part of the 20th Century.
Many, if not most early golf courses were cleared through wooded areas and brush, while others were built on farmland cleared of trees


Now that Ran's creation allows anyone, who has a thirst for knowledge on the subject, can actually see photos of the differences. What Ran has done here, does a great job of not only illustrating the finer points, but should cause anyone in a position to benefit from this education, to implement it at their club. (Where applicable)

You've lost me, and I'm not easily lost .... unless I want to be.



Ran Morrissett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: California Golf Club prior to Kyle Phillips's recent work
« Reply #16 on: January 10, 2009, 10:35:02 AM »
Here are some last ones.

As seen in the course profile, Phillips has returned the eighteenth green to how it was in MacKenzie’s day. This is a very good thing as it is one of two greens that it is known for a fact that MacKenzie rebuilt.

Here is a photo of it in 1927 after MacKenzie was done and essentially, it looks like this today.



Now here is what it looked like five years ago.



What can you say?! As an aside, note the hedge around the lower twelfth tees.

Robert, I will post some ones later today of the Cal Club from the 1980s when it was heavily treed.

In fact, when I do so, I won’t label the holes and we will see if people can guess which holes they are.

Cheers,

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: California Golf Club prior to Kyle Phillips's recent work
« Reply #17 on: January 10, 2009, 11:08:43 AM »
What puzzles me is how did the course go from its unique MacKenzie bunkers to the circular/bland bunkers ?

Patrick, You originally asked this question.

The answer I eluded to was ignorance.

Now, because of the global ease at which information can be distributed, I concluded that this website has a lot to do with how a committeeman, at any club, can easily learn what they don't know about the subject. Compared to eras past where learning could take years of extensive study.  Even then, I suspect the amount of printed information on the subject was limited, if it even existed.

The photographic evidenced in these two threads that Ran has started goes a long way in teaching someone who wants to learn how to greatly improve their course and repair problems from decades of poor decisions.
Committeemen with their own agendas, based on their personal egos, wants and whims, is not likely to want to learn anything new and will push for an ill-conceived project. i.e. Tree plantings of the 40's, 50's, 60's 70's 80's 90's and even the oughts.

In previous threads, occasionally people have opined that the rugged bunker look is more costly to maintain. I asked Josh Mahar, the super at Wild Horse, if this was true on his course. His answer was a definitive NO. He lets nature maintain his bunker surrounds save for typical core maintenance practices. i.e. mowing up to these surrounds and the occasional sand pro.

Why do you think Ran has taken the time to illustrate the vast differences in presentations at The Cal Club?
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Mark Bourgeois

Re: California Golf Club prior to Kyle Phillips's recent work
« Reply #18 on: January 10, 2009, 11:09:51 AM »
What I can say is it's fascinating, and another lesson learned for me, how those Mackenzie bunkers define or magnify the slope whereas the bunkering five years ago seem to want to fight or minimize it.

Helps me see a functional aspect to what I previously thought of as an aesthetic and unlocks a bit of the bunker mystery of Pasatiempo and Cypress Point.  There's yet another camo lesson lurking in here I think...

A couple of aimless observations about that back bunker:
  • The two capes somehow "migrated" from the bottom of the bunker around to the top. It's like that Bunuel movie where he switches the female lead right in the middle and we're not supposed to notice!
  • Looks like an "Alison"


Mark
« Last Edit: January 10, 2009, 12:31:56 PM by Mark Bourgeois »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: California Golf Club prior to Kyle Phillips's recent work
« Reply #19 on: January 10, 2009, 11:11:49 AM »
Ran,

The last photo in your initial post doesn't show any water adjacent to # 18.

Why was the water feature added ?  In what year ? 

And, is it now gone for good.

Mike Benham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: California Golf Club prior to Kyle Phillips's recent work
« Reply #20 on: January 10, 2009, 12:29:25 PM »

Why was the water feature added ? 



The club does not have a pool and with South City's balmy year round weather, some sacrifices were made for the members who liked to swim ...



(Disclaimer:  the above statement is only partially correct ;) )
"... and I liked the guy ..."

Ran Morrissett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: California Golf Club prior to Kyle Phillips's recent work
« Reply #21 on: January 10, 2009, 06:19:58 PM »
Pat, the water feature was added in the 1990s and it is mercifully gone forever.

Below are three photographs from the 1980s of the Cal Club. Can you guess which holes?







Neil_Crafter

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: California Golf Club prior to Kyle Phillips's recent work
« Reply #22 on: January 10, 2009, 06:22:35 PM »
Ran
Thanks for these 1980's pics Ran.
Wow, when too many trees are barely enough!

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: California Golf Club prior to Kyle Phillips's recent work
« Reply #23 on: January 10, 2009, 06:23:54 PM »

Neil - hello  :)

An intriguing man, such a fertile mind - I'd like to learn more about him.

That said, I am still pondering on whether he is most revealing before or after a good McLaren Vale red.


Almost everything is better after a good McLaren Vale red!  Southern Hemisphere wine is the fastest growing in the world, and with good reason.

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: California Golf Club prior to Kyle Phillips's recent work
« Reply #24 on: January 10, 2009, 06:25:41 PM »
Pat, the water feature was added in the 1990s and it is mercifully gone forever.

Below are three photographs from the 1980s of the Cal Club. Can you guess which holes?








I think the last one is the par 3 #12.  That's a very steep green, and hard to keep the ball below the pin on a decent length hole.