[David_Tepper]

Sean L. -

I have played each course just a handful of times, but I would also give the nod to Diablo over Orinda. However, Diablo might be out of the 30-mile radius from SF.

DT

[Mike Golden]

Mike:

It's no accident that San Jose CC was at times grouped with Orinda for interclub matches - they kept those who always won due to huge home course advantage (or other reasons) together!  Another would be Moraga CC.

So you of all people get what this means.

I think Orinda is a petty darn good course though - superior to San Jose for sure.  As for HOW good, well.. that would indeed depend on how tolerant of quirk one is.

But Jed has played it way more than I have for sure.  He can describe it / defend it far better.

Huck, I need to do an Emily Litella here-I was referring to Moraga, not Orinda, about that match.  So just ignore that prior comment, Jed, it is based on invalid information...

Re San Jose CC, having been a member there for a couple of years, there really isn't that much local knowledge-maybe the first 4 holes, after that it's pretty straightforward golf.  The funny thing is when you look at the website they claim that Tillie is one of the architects.  The back story to this is Rick Wolffe sent me a letter written by Tillie to the PGA about the day he spent there suggesting modications to about 5 holes (one of the par 3's, #14 and one of the par 4's, #15, always reminded me of Tillie before I knew this).  Anyway, after I left, I passed the info on to a friend of mine who was still a member and voila, they now claim to have a Tillie heritage.  I should send the club a bill for all the extra revenue they've received over the years after making this claim and donate it to GCA and the Tillinghast society.

[Tom Huckaby]

Mike - gotcha.  Moraga CC is the POSTER course for local knowledge being required.  But Orinda qualifies also... as for San Jose, they were grouped with these types primarily because they won so much, I'd guess - this would just make it tougher for them!  I would say though that on the 1-10 local knowledge scale, if Moraga is a 10 and say San Jose Muni is a 1, put San Jose CC as a 7... those first four holes - and I think the last two also - are enough to get it pretty far up there.  I say that as a visitor.  Of course for you as a member, it's all straightforward.   

Great stuff re Tillie, btw!

TH

[Mike Golden]

Mike - gotcha.  Moraga CC is the POSTER course for local knowledge being required.  But Orinda qualifies also... as for San Jose, they were grouped with these types primarily because they won so much, I'd guess - this would just make it tougher for them!  I would say though that on the 1-10 local knowledge scale, if Moraga is a 10 and say San Jose Muni is a 1, put San Jose CC as a 7... those first four holes - and I think the last two also - are enough to get it pretty far up there.  I say that as a visitor.  Of course for you as a member, it's all straightforward.   

Great stuff re Tillie, btw!

TH

Huck,

I think #18 at SJCC is a terrific finishing hole (and one of my favorites on the course) even though it's a 3 wood (or iron for longer hitters) off the tee.  That's the extent of the local knowledge, by the way, for the hole, the approach is a fun wedge to a well bunkered green downhill.  I can see where #17 can be strange for a visitor, I know it was the first time I played there.  It is a pretty good par 5 though, you just need to keep the drive left, the same with #16, which really gets lots of people confused.  But it's all right in front of you, not like some of the mountain courses where you have no clue where to hit the golf shot sometimes.

[Sean Leary]

Sean L. -

I have played each course just a handful of times, but I would also give the nod to Diablo over Orinda. However, Diablo might be out of the 30-mile radius from SF.

DT

Good point. I have played Diablo a ton, and it is one of those courses that really grew on me. Significant quirk (Gully on 2, tiny green on 7, trees in fairway on 18). Some serious back to front sloping greens. 14 is a great under the radar short par 4.

[Tom Huckaby]

Mike - gotcha.  Moraga CC is the POSTER course for local knowledge being required.  But Orinda qualifies also... as for San Jose, they were grouped with these types primarily because they won so much, I'd guess - this would just make it tougher for them!  I would say though that on the 1-10 local knowledge scale, if Moraga is a 10 and say San Jose Muni is a 1, put San Jose CC as a 7... those first four holes - and I think the last two also - are enough to get it pretty far up there.  I say that as a visitor.  Of course for you as a member, it's all straightforward.   

Great stuff re Tillie, btw!

TH

Huck,

I think #18 at SJCC is a terrific finishing hole (and one of my favorites on the course) even though it's a 3 wood (or iron for longer hitters) off the tee.  That's the extent of the local knowledge, by the way, for the hole, the approach is a fun wedge to a well bunkered green downhill.  I can see where #17 can be strange for a visitor, I know it was the first time I played there.  It is a pretty good par 5 though, you just need to keep the drive left, the same with #16, which really gets lots of people confused.  But it's all right in front of you, not like some of the mountain courses where you have no clue where to hit the golf shot sometimes.

Mike - understood.  Just think of it as a first-time visitor.... none of that stuff is like the mountain courses you mention, for sure... but the semi-blindness on 18 and what you state re 17 is enough to give pause, so to speak.  So it's not THAT bad.... but well... combine with the first 4 holes and there would be some advantage to the home team.  I think I'll stick with a 7 rating.


BTW I also think 17 and 18 are each great golf holes.
TH

[Mike Golden]

Mike - gotcha.  Moraga CC is the POSTER course for local knowledge being required.  But Orinda qualifies also... as for San Jose, they were grouped with these types primarily because they won so much, I'd guess - this would just make it tougher for them!  I would say though that on the 1-10 local knowledge scale, if Moraga is a 10 and say San Jose Muni is a 1, put San Jose CC as a 7... those first four holes - and I think the last two also - are enough to get it pretty far up there.  I say that as a visitor.  Of course for you as a member, it's all straightforward.   

Great stuff re Tillie, btw!

TH

Huck,

I think #18 at SJCC is a terrific finishing hole (and one of my favorites on the course) even though it's a 3 wood (or iron for longer hitters) off the tee.  That's the extent of the local knowledge, by the way, for the hole, the approach is a fun wedge to a well bunkered green downhill.  I can see where #17 can be strange for a visitor, I know it was the first time I played there.  It is a pretty good par 5 though, you just need to keep the drive left, the same with #16, which really gets lots of people confused.  But it's all right in front of you, not like some of the mountain courses where you have no clue where to hit the golf shot sometimes.

Mike - understood.  Just think of it as a first-time visitor.... none of that stuff is like the mountain courses you mention, for sure... but the semi-blindness on 18 and what you state re 17 is enough to give pause, so to speak.  So it's not THAT bad.... but well... combine with the first 4 holes and there would be some advantage to the home team.  I think I'll stick with a 7 rating.


BTW I also think 17 and 18 are each great golf holes.
TH

Huck, I agree, it's about a 7 on the local knowledge meter and a pretty good golf course-if only the membership were better (even though they have some really good players) it would rank higher on my personal scale of enjoyment.

[Tom Huckaby]

Mike - yeah, we've discussed this before.  Your move north at the time was very wise.

 

[Pat Burke]

Southern Cal resident, but I would pick San Fran without hesitation.

[Bob_Huntley]

Jed -

1) I would prefer Claremont over Orinda.

2) Are Mayacama, Cordevalle, Pasatiempo and Sonoma out of range?

DT

David - he said within 30 miles of each city.  Make those available that brings Palm Desert and maybe Valley Club into play for SoCal.  That might be enough to change the equation southward....

TH

Tom,

I always thought that a Jesuit education included some rudiments of geography but seeing that you mentioned Palm Desert and the Valley Club in the same breath, I see I was mistaken.

When talking of cities, surely one thinks of City Hall as its center and starting point. In which case, the areas you mentioned are well over a hundred miles distant, not thirty.

Please write on the blackboard "My geography teacher was a dud."


Bob

[Tom Huckaby]

Bob:

Laziness at times makes fools of us all.

Distance from Santa Barbara to Palm Desert:  217 miles

Distance from Mayacama to Cordevalle:  133 miles

I apologize to every teacher I have ever had.

In my defense, however, I was not stating that any of these was within 30 miles of either city center - I was just reiterating Jed's rules regarding that - he had said within 30 miles of each city.  My statement was that if you use such far-flung courses as David T. used for NorCal, then you could also use these far-flung ones for SoCal.  I was still wrong - just not completely crazy.

TH

[Kevin_Reilly]

For the life of me I can't figure out how Orinda makes it near the top of any SF Bay Area course list.  I once played an interclub match against them (at Lake Merced) and their members said no visiting team had won there in about 10 years because the course was so funky and there was so much local knowledge needed.  I looked at the club website and the photos really reaffirm that.  I've never played it but would guess that Lake Merced, Olympic-Ocean, Green Hills, and probably Peninsula (post renovation) and maybe even Richmond CC (after Neal Meagher's work) are all far superior courses.  Am I missing something?

Orinda has done a lot of work to the course in the last few years.  Tree management (density and too many varieties), bunker work, drainage (course is built on clay), with only a modest amount of lengthening.  The photos on the club web site are old and don't reflect any of the new work -- it looks like every hole is the tee shot on Olympic #12.

Hard for me to comment on putting one of the courses you list ahead of OCC - I hate rankings and this smells of one.  But Orinda is the kind of course that one could enjoy playing daily, and while there is more work to be done, it is getting better each year.

[Wayne Wiggins, Jr.]

How about Sequoyah... a course, while certainly in the Bay Area's 2nd tier, that should aid in NorCal's eminence.

[Jed Peters]

Tom,

I always thought that a Jesuit education included some rudiments of geography but seeing that you mentioned Palm Desert and the Valley Club in the same breath, I see I was mistaken.

When talking of cities, surely one thinks of City Hall as its center and starting point. In which case, the areas you mentioned are well over a hundred miles distant, not thirty.

Please write on the blackboard "My geography teacher was a dud."


Bob

Quite simply:

If he had a Christian Brother education, he would have been better off.

God is a Gael!

[Wayne Wiggins, Jr.]

Tom,

I always thought that a Jesuit education included some rudiments of geography but seeing that you mentioned Palm Desert and the Valley Club in the same breath, I see I was mistaken.

When talking of cities, surely one thinks of City Hall as its center and starting point. In which case, the areas you mentioned are well over a hundred miles distant, not thirty.

Please write on the blackboard "My geography teacher was a dud."


Bob

Quite simply:

If he had a Christian Brother education, he would have been better off.

God is a Gael!

Or even better... Augustinian.  Villanova... East Coast catholic!!!

[Tom Huckaby]

Now now... I wasn't all THAT far off.  Bob misunderstood my statement.  I stand by the Jesuits (college), and Carmelites (all grades prior).

That being said I do have great respect for the Augustinians.  Christian Brothers, not so much.

 

[Wayne Wiggins, Jr.]

Now now... I wasn't all THAT far off.  Bob misunderstood my statement.  I stand by the Jesuits (college), and Carmelites (all grades prior).

That being said I do have great respect for the Augustinians.  Christian Brothers, not so much.

 

Me too.  One side of my family is Quaker the other Presbyterian, so going to Catholic university was a little shock to the system.

[Tom Huckaby]

Wayne - I married a Presbyterian - quite a shock to my Catholic parents.

You and I need to play this game together some time... much notes to compare.

 

[Peter Ferlicca]

I will say the weather in the LA area is better and probably more enjoyable golf days.  Being a former resident of the So Cal area I would say without hesitation that Bay Area is better for golf. 
Reasons Why
-IMO I prefer the cool look of Cypress Trees over Eucalyptus Trees
-If you are an Alistair Fan you would definitely pick the Bay Area (Meadow and Cal Club)
-Though the bunkers at LA and Riv are awesome the ones in the Bay Area are legendary (SFGC and Cal Club now that they restored Mackenzie’s bunkers)
-Broader range of architects to play from Bay Area (Tilly, MacKenzie, DMK, Willie Locke, Sam Whiting, Willie Watson, and Donald Ross) as opposed to the LA area which is (George Thomas, Max Behr, Jack Nicklaus, and Norman MacBeth)
-Also you just get a certain feeling when you are playing up there, a lot of history especially after reading the match book.

[Carl Nichols]

I was about to write a post about how lucky you guys in LA and San Fran are in comparison to DC when it comes to golf courses, but then I started thinking about it a little bit.  Once you impose Jed's 30-miles-from-the-city-center limit, there's no question that SF and LA (like most other cities) are better at the top, but is it possible that DC might actually have more depth--at least in the private clubs?  Within 30 miles from the center of DC are the following, listed in the order they are commonly ranked (there are others that I haven't listed):

MD:
Congressional Blue
Congressional Gold
Columbia
Four Streams (actually about 34 miles)
Woodmore
Bethesda
Chevy Chase
Woodmont
Lakewood
Manor
Avenel (redesign to be opened this year, I believe)

VA:
RTJ
Lowes Island (2 courses)
Belle Haven
River Bend

That's 15 solid courses (some very very good, some just good), all within 30 miles of the city center, with Four Streams just a little farther. (I'm assuming from what I've heard that the new Avenel will be good.)  Now I'm not in a position to compare the #14 course in DC to the #14 course in San Fran or LA since I have no experience with this latter, but this list -- particularly on the MD side -- seems to at least put DC in the conversation. 

[Tim Leahy]

As a former resident of SoCal and long time resident of NoCal I have to give my vote to SF area courses based mostly on beauty. Most of SoCal's best are built in canyons and struggle to have the lush conditions of SF area courses. Not many spectacular views from the best in SoCal, and although I love the smell of the Euc's they don't stand up against the Cypress and Redwoods. I will leave it to the architecture experts to debate the bones of Riviera, LACC, Wilshire and Bel Air with SFCC, Olympic, Cal Club, Green Hills and Lake Merced.

[Tom Huckaby]

Well, hell, as long as we're limiting it to 30 miles, compare the top 6 in those cities to the top 6 in the Windy City (even if you exclude Medinah, which I personally wouldn't):

Chicago Golf
Shoreacres
Old Elm
Olympia Fields
Skokie
Medinah

(Still can't compete with NY metro or Philly metro, though...)

They all lose big time to either CA city if the assessment is made based on how they play TODAY (January 12).

 

[Carl Nichols]

Is Shoreacres really less than 30 miles from the loop?

[Wayne Wiggins, Jr.]

Back in NorCal...

What's the deal with Burlingame CC, in terms of its golf course?  What's its architectural story (i.e. who, when, etc.)?  Topography?  etc. 

I did a search here and couldn't really find anything worthwhile, except for a funny OT quote from Gib stating "Aronimink is the France of golf clubs"... which i thought quite amusing.

[Tom Yost]

JSP:

That being said, I do firmly believe one sticks with one's sports teams unless they leave you... or perhaps if an expansion team is created in one's current home.

Tom;

What about a team that leaves you, then returns? 

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