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cary lichtenstein

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Greenbriar rumored to be for sale, huge operating losses
« on: January 04, 2009, 10:38:15 PM »
I just read in the Wall St. Journal, Saturday's edition that the Greenbriar lost $35 million last year and they have engaged one of the investment companies to explore their options.

Can anyone post a link please?
Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

Rob Rigg

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Re: Greenbriar rumored to be for sale, huge operating losses
« Reply #1 on: January 04, 2009, 10:48:03 PM »
This is the article:

By ALEX ROTH and TAMARA AUDI
One of the nation's most historic and lavish resorts -- the Greenbrier -- appears to be at the mercy of two separate economic forces: plunging railroad freight volumes and a sharp drop in customers looking to stay at luxury hotels.

 
Getty Images
The resort had an emergency shelter for Congress during the Cold War.
CSX Corp., owner of the resort, said Friday it tapped Goldman, Sachs & Co. to help figure out what to do with the famous West Virginia resort, whose features include a massive bunker once meant to serve as a secret nuclear bomb shelter for members of Congress. Despite its popularity as a high-end resort, the Greenbrier lost $35 million last year.

The announcement comes as CSX and the railroad industry are grappling with some of the most severe drops in freight volumes in decades. The third largest U.S. railroad by revenue also has five new directors on its 12-member board, the outcome of a highly contentious proxy battle last year between CSX and some activist hedge funds that questioned the company's investments and called for a management overhaul.

It wasn't clear whether CSX's move is a result of changes to its board. Michael Ward, CSX's chief executive, said in a statement that the 230-year-old hotel -- a well-known getaway for corporate titans and powerful politicians -- is "at a crossroads." He added that the resort "faces even more difficult challenges in 2009. It is imperative that we respond to this situation without delay."

"It doesn't surprise me now that you have a new board in place that this is one of the first things they would look at," said Arthur Hatfield, an analyst with Morgan Keegan & Co.

A CSX spokesman emphasized Friday that CSX isn't necessarily planning to sell the hotel, nestled on 6,500 acres in the Allegheny Mountains, with more than 700 rooms and suites plus 96 free-standing "estate houses." Rooms start at $275 and activities include falconry.

A Goldman Sachs spokesman declined to comment on options under consideration or the potential value of a deal to purchase the resort.

The resort was purchased in 1910 by the Chesapeake and Ohio Railway, which eventually became part of CSX, based in Jacksonville, Fla.

The Greenbrier's troubles reflect the severe beating that luxury hotels and resorts, which rely heavily on corporate events and business travelers, have taken in the withering economy. After five years of growth, high-end hotels saw a decrease in occupancy to about 61% during the first week of December from about 74% a year earlier, according to hotel industry watcher Smith Travel Research.

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Getty Images
The front entrance of Greenbrier Resort in White Sulphur Springs, W. Va.
The entire hotel sector has "entered the initial stages of one of the deepest and longest recessions in the history of the domestic lodging industry," PKF Hospitality Research warned last month.

Meanwhile, the railroad industry has been experiencing its own dramatic loss of business, although railroad companies have been able to offset the volume drops by instituting a variety of revenue-salvaging measures, including raising prices.

Along with economic woes, CSX has also been grappling with a continuing labor dispute at the Greenbrier. The railroad's management is in contentious contract negotiations with hotel employees, who have been operating without a contract for nearly a year. A union official representing hotel employees didn't return a call seeking comment. The resort lost more than $15 million in 2007.

Selling the resort in the current financial climate would be a major challenge, as hotel owners and companies already have been forced to abandon projects due to a lack of cash and dwindling demand. But a buyer might be attracted to a storied property at a bargain price.

The resort also may soon institute gambling, making it a more attractive investment. In November, local residents approved a county measure that would allow casino table games at the Greenbrier. The ballot measure was championed by the union representing workers at the hotel, who worried that plummeting revenue could result in massive job losses. During peak season, the resort employs 1,600 people.

The resort hasn't yet implemented gambling, a CSX spokesman said. But it is working with a gambling consultant and is considering allowing table games like poker and blackjack

John Kirk

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Re: Greenbriar rumored to be for sale, huge operating losses
« Reply #2 on: January 04, 2009, 11:28:19 PM »
I am very interested in the transportation industry, and keep an eye on rail traffic through the weekly Railfax report online:

http://railfax.transmatch.com/#IndTable

As you can see, North American Rail Traffic is down dramatically.  Trafiic is down over 20% this week from last year.  Over the last four weeks, traffic is down 14% and fo the year, about 8%.

It was just this last month that rail traffic dropped severely.  It was plugging along 2-4% below last year, and then in mid-November the figures dropped off the table, to 15-20% below last year's volume.

I point this out to emphasize the severity of the economic slowdown.  Trains move raw materials and heavy industry.  They are also efficient at moving food and tractor-trailers (intermodal).

The economy is in the deep doldrums.

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Greenbriar rumored to be for sale, huge operating losses
« Reply #3 on: January 05, 2009, 12:54:22 AM »
Funny, but traffic on my model railroad is way, way up!
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

John Kirk

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Re: Greenbriar rumored to be for sale, huge operating losses
« Reply #4 on: January 05, 2009, 12:55:37 AM »
Ooooo, my dad was a model railroader!  First, HO.  Then an HO-N3 layout, then a really fancy N gauge layout to finish the trifecta.

Charlie Goerges

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Re: Greenbriar rumored to be for sale, huge operating losses
« Reply #5 on: January 05, 2009, 01:13:22 AM »
Holy crap...I think we may have found a geekier hobby than golf course architecture!

I feel much, much better about myself. ;)
Severally on the occasion of everything that thou doest, pause and ask thyself, if death is a dreadful thing because it deprives thee of this. - Marcus Aurelius

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Greenbriar rumored to be for sale, huge operating losses
« Reply #6 on: January 05, 2009, 08:10:50 AM »
Holy crap...I think we may have found a geekier hobby than golf course architecture!

I feel much, much better about myself. ;)

Well, gca's gotta do something when we are not torturing golfers.....

BTW, those of us who read Model Railroader look down on those who read "Bus World."  Now, that's a geeky hobby!
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Greenbriar rumored to be for sale, huge operating losses
« Reply #7 on: January 05, 2009, 08:20:12 AM »
I wonder if these reported numbers include the private Tom Fazio course down the road, or the "Greenbrier Sporting Club" in the Turks & Caicos?  Or whether they're an entirely independent outfit licensed by The Greenbrier?

Tim Liddy

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Re: Greenbriar rumored to be for sale, huge operating losses
« Reply #8 on: January 05, 2009, 08:37:09 AM »
John,

Thanks for the railroad information, awesome information and great predictors of the economy.  Thanks very much for sharing. I will follow with interest. Great economic advice on a golf web site –go figure.

Thanks again.


Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Greenbriar rumored to be for sale, huge operating losses
« Reply #9 on: January 05, 2009, 08:39:58 AM »
TD,

I believe its just the Greenbriar resort, which has been actually owned by the railroad since forever.

Maybe Lester George has some more info?

BTW, it would be interesting to see how they could be losing $35M....the golf courses couldn't cost more than $2M each to run, even with no revenues, so it must be the huge hotel, no?

They do mention union contracts, so if the resort is run on the same pay scale as the railroad, each course might cost $3M a year to run and it is probably at a huge competitive disadvantage compared to other facilities and a new owner might be able to change the salary structure.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2009, 08:42:54 AM by Jeff_Brauer »
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Charlie Goerges

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Re: Greenbriar rumored to be for sale, huge operating losses
« Reply #10 on: January 05, 2009, 09:36:58 AM »
Jeff, I was curious about the same thing. If it's just a hotel and a couple of courses, or even a smallish resort with the usual amenities, how could it lose $35m? That size number would seem to better match multiple hotel/resort facilities. Of course, I'm not a business man, so I may just not get it.
Severally on the occasion of everything that thou doest, pause and ask thyself, if death is a dreadful thing because it deprives thee of this. - Marcus Aurelius

Chip Gaskins

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Re: Greenbriar rumored to be for sale, huge operating losses
« Reply #11 on: January 05, 2009, 10:24:22 AM »
it is a massive hotel and operations cost on a huge old building are extreme.  with their hard to reach location and their continued high rates i don't see anyway they make without closing a wing of the hotel or dropping rates (a lot) to stimulate visits.  wonder how it fared in the 1970s?

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Greenbriar rumored to be for sale, huge operating losses
« Reply #12 on: January 05, 2009, 11:26:01 AM »
Other than the labor contract, the massive hotel would have to be it.  Closing a wing would give the place the smell of death, however.  There are some retreat cabins that could be closed, however, unless those just happen to be the most popular rooms.....

I wonder how much the govt. bunker costs and if they pay to do it.  The article made it sound as if they might have at least started out that way, but I imagine the govt. gives them something now to subsidize it.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

JSPayne

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Re: Greenbriar rumored to be for sale, huge operating losses
« Reply #13 on: January 05, 2009, 11:42:22 AM »
"...nestled on 6,500 acres in the Allegheny Mountains, with more than 700 rooms and suites plus 96 free-standing "estate houses."

Possible payments on a property that size, plus mortgages on any and all buildings, plus building upkeep, tack on a couple golf courses.....seems like a pretty easy way to lose $35 million in a hurry.
"To be nobody but yourself in a world which is doing it's best, night and day, to make you everybody else means to fight the hardest battle any human being can fight; and never stop fighting." -E.E. Cummings

BCrosby

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Re: Greenbriar rumored to be for sale, huge operating losses
« Reply #14 on: January 05, 2009, 11:45:27 AM »
I wonder if these out of the way, massive hotel/ multiple golf course/ full range of family activities/ European plan resorts aren't obsolete anyway.

The downturn in the economy might be merely accelerating an extinction that was already invevitable.

Bob  

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Greenbriar rumored to be for sale, huge operating losses
« Reply #15 on: January 05, 2009, 11:53:37 AM »
And yet an out of the way Sand Hills or Bandon would be a good model?

I don't think its the location.  I think its the hotel cost, or maybe that the place has just fallen off the map a little, compared to Pinehurst which has marketed via the US Open. Last big event at the Greenbriar was the '79 Ryder Cup.  They probably brought Lester in to restore the course for some marketing pop.  JN did a redo earlier.

If they lose $35M and have even 40% occupancy in 700 rooms at $300 a night......they must be taking in at least $30M, so the ops cost must be about $65M, which just seems like a lot. Of course, the CSX has owned if forever, and those numbers presume the original cost is long paid for, but maybe they re-fied several times for upgrades.

Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Joel Zuckerman

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Re: Greenbriar rumored to be for sale, huge operating losses
« Reply #16 on: January 05, 2009, 11:57:28 AM »
This may or may not be relavant to the huge losses they are incurring, but here's an interesting fact:  Places like The Greenbrier (and the nearby Homestead, for that matter) are chock-full of emplyees that have 10, 20, sometimes 40-or-more years of tenure.   In these isolated population pockets, mega-resorts like this are one of, if not the largest employer in the region, so people get and hold jobs for a lifetime.  (And in many cases are 2nd or 3rd generation employees)  I suppose even modest annaul salary increases over years and years have something to do with their financial woes.

henrye

Re: Greenbriar rumored to be for sale, huge operating losses
« Reply #17 on: January 05, 2009, 11:58:15 AM »
Sounds like a perfect fit for Fairmont - they have a bunch of these grand old behemoths.  The upkeep costs are staggering and if they can't figure out a solid economic model then I fear the whole category is doomed.   ....certainly no answers here.

Greg Tallman

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Re: Greenbriar rumored to be for sale, huge operating losses
« Reply #18 on: January 05, 2009, 12:54:52 PM »
I wonder if these reported numbers include the private Tom Fazio course down the road, or the "Greenbrier Sporting Club" in the Turks & Caicos?  Or whether they're an entirely independent outfit licensed by The Greenbrier?

It is my understanding that the losses reflect the operation of the core resort and not those "satellite" operations you mention.

Steve Hyden

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Re: Greenbriar rumored to be for sale, huge operating losses
« Reply #19 on: January 05, 2009, 04:02:41 PM »
Is there anyone out there who stayed and played there in 2008?  Any comments on course conditioning and the resort experience overall?

Tim Gavrich

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Re: Greenbriar rumored to be for sale, huge operating losses
« Reply #20 on: January 05, 2009, 04:09:46 PM »
I played the Greenbrier course a couple times in Spring 2008 and the Old White Fall 2008.  If the resort is in trouble, it sure hasn't shown in the condition of the golf courses...they were pristine.
Senior Writer, GolfPass

Wade Whitehead

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Re: Greenbriar rumored to be for sale, huge operating losses
« Reply #21 on: January 05, 2009, 05:02:43 PM »
Course conditioning is superb.

Related to an earlier post: Lester George's work on the Old White returned it much to its original condition based, I believe, on then-newly discovered aerials of the property shortly after course construction.  It was less a PR move than a restoration.

The resort really is facing unprecedented challenges.  Volume has dropped significantly and the union presence is significant.  Friends in the hospitality industry have shared repeated news of convention cancellations from longtime association clients.

A few years back (ten, maybe), owners started selling lots on property for private homes.  At first, they were tucked out of view; now, a number are in clear site.  What was once a secluded valley of thousands of untouched acres is slowly developing.  The private course didn't help, of course, as it removed the wooded edge from the backs of the other courses.  Horse trails still meander across the Old White, but the last time we were there, a playing partner asked how long it would be before a Ruby Tuesday sprung up alongside.

WW

Jim_Kennedy

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Re: Greenbriar rumored to be for sale, huge operating losses
« Reply #22 on: January 05, 2009, 06:03:36 PM »
In 2000 tourism brought $2,400,000,000 into the W. Va. ecomony.
Wages paid (including owners) were 596,000,000
Local taxes were 9 mil.
State taxes were 274.3 mil.
Federal taxes were 96.7 mil.

In 2006 tourism brought $3,974,000,000 into the W. Va. economy.
Wages paid (including owners) were 854,000,000
Local taxes were 13.8 mil.
State taxes were 532.2 mil.
Federal taxes were 103.5

Do the math, don't blame the workers.



« Last Edit: January 05, 2009, 06:08:11 PM by Jim_Kennedy »
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Adam Sherer

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Re: Greenbriar rumored to be for sale, huge operating losses
« Reply #23 on: January 05, 2009, 07:43:31 PM »
Holy crap...I think we may have found a geekier hobby than golf course architecture!



Hahahahaha!
"Spem successus alit"
 (success nourishes hope)
 
         - Ross clan motto

Richard Hetzel

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Re: Greenbriar rumored to be for sale, huge operating losses
« Reply #24 on: January 05, 2009, 08:56:21 PM »
A great 3-4 trip would be taking the "Cardinal Route" train from Cincinnati to the Greenbier, playing those courses, eating very well, and return on the train...ahhhhhhhhh

I'll be watching the room prices!
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Crystal Downs CC (MI), The Bridge (NY), Canterbury GC (OH), Lakota Links (CO), Montauk Downs (NY), Sedge Valley (WI)

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