[Damon Groves]

I believe that 70% of the difference in volume of play at Bandon Trails is that it is perceived as a tougher walk, and nobody wants to have that tough walk, into the wind, coming home for their second 18 of the day.

The other 30% is that everyone likes to be out by the ocean late in the day, and/or it's too difficult for some people because it's narrower than the other two courses.

Tom I agree with you. My father and Uncle have 18-22 indexes and Bandon Trails not only is tough on their legs but is a little too demanding for them despite them loving the course including number 14. They all feel each course at Bandon Dunes is great in its own way.

To support this, on a typical trip we play for three days with the older guys only playing Bandon Trails once while the rest of us play each course twice. However, even the younger guys have only doubled Bandon Trails in the same day. Our legs paid they price but we had a ball. The second round was so windy that the starter would not go up to the first tee box with us and told us we were crazy.

[David Botimer]

I think the walk is a factor in less play but I believe the real story boils down to player perception of quality / price.  BDGR does not follow the pricing model of Pebble Beach and differentiate between courses.

Pebble charges less to play Spanish Bay and Spyglass Hill, yet BDGR charges the same on all three.  I'd bet play on Bandon Trails would go up if the price was discounted.

Another issue re amount of play; Bandon Crossings I believe is perceived by many as comparable to Bandon Trails (it's not, but it is a very good course), at a significantly reduced price WITH carts.  Many players are now adding a round at Crossings to their trip, and I believe Trails is the loser regarding rounds lost at the resort.

 

[Tim Pitner]

I'm a little chapped that any change was made to #14 (I loved the razor's edge nature of the hole before), but I imagine it's still a good hole.  Does anyone have a photo of the revised #14 green? 

#18 certainly is a difficult hole, but when I played it, it was mostly the wind (against) that made it hard, as opposed to any particular feature of the hole. 

IMO, the lack of proximity to the ocean is by far the most significant factor in how many rounds are played at Bandon Trails.  People going to Bandon generally want to play seaside golf. 

[Michael Dugger]

I'm a little chapped that any change was made to #14 (I loved the razor's edge nature of the hole before), but I imagine it's still a good hole.  Does anyone have a photo of the revised #14 green? 

#18 certainly is a difficult hole, but when I played it, it was mostly the wind (against) that made it hard, as opposed to any particular feature of the hole. 

IMO, the lack of proximity to the ocean is by far the most significant factor in how many rounds are played at Bandon Trails.  People going to Bandon generally want to play seaside golf. 

Hardly any difference to the new 14th 

[Sean Leary]

I'm a little chapped that any change was made to #14 (I loved the razor's edge nature of the hole before), but I imagine it's still a good hole.  Does anyone have a photo of the revised #14 green? 

#18 certainly is a difficult hole, but when I played it, it was mostly the wind (against) that made it hard, as opposed to any particular feature of the hole. 

IMO, the lack of proximity to the ocean is by far the most significant factor in how many rounds are played at Bandon Trails.  People going to Bandon generally want to play seaside golf. 

Hardly any difference to the new 14th 

Agreed. Most would not even know if it had been changed if it wasn't announced.

[Kalen Braley]

Regardless of the reasons, no doubt BT is getting the least amount of rounds. 

As David suggests, I would think a reduction in price to fill those empty time slots would be the way to go...and its probably to become more pronounced when ODM opens up.

[Ian Andrew]

I'm off to see Bandon Trails this April.

I'm curious to find out what all discussion here is based upon.

John Kirk had an excellent point that generally architects like to mix the complexity of difficulty of holes to increase the variety. Many of you seem to have enjoyed the first 13 holes where (I’m assuming) there was a little more playability and then were put off when the course become an extremely tough.

What you need to understand is that one techniques architects enjoy is to extend you liberties throughout, and then at key moments say buckle up because it’s time you hit a couple of shots under pressure.

What I’m curious to find out was whether these are reasonable arguments, or whether C&C has got deep inside you heads at a key moment in the round.

[Jason Topp]

The only real negative I have with the course is the difficulty of the walk.  I think the holes are equal in quality to the holes on the other two courses.  I also think the setting is really special.

[Tim Pitner]

John Kirk had an excellent point that generally architects like to mix the complexity of difficulty of holes to increase the variety. Many of you seem to have enjoyed the first 13 holes where (I’m assuming) there was a little more playability and then were put off when the course become an extremely tough.

What you need to understand is that one techniques architects enjoy is to extend you liberties throughout, and then at key moments say buckle up because it’s time you hit a couple of shots under pressure.

What I’m curious to find out was whether these are reasonable arguments, or whether C&C has got deep inside you heads at a key moment in the round.

Ian,

I could be wrong, but I'm not sure that's what's going on here.  #14 is certainly a "turn the screws" type of hole, but I don't believe #15-#18 are inherently difficult holes.  #16 and #18 become long, tough holes into the wind.  #15 and to some extent #17 will also play into the same wind, but aren't as difficult.  Is it a routing flaw to have the last 4 holes susceptible to the same wind?  Some might think so--I don't. 

The criticism I've heard more often (maybe it's just because Matt Ward repeats it so often) is that the holes carved through the forest--7 through 13--don't measure up.  I don't happen to agree with that one either. 

[Kalen Braley]

I may get banned from Bandon or GCA.com for suggesting this  , but would it be possible to allow carts only at Bandon Trails if its your 2nd round of the day?

I've never played it, but if its a tough walk as many say it is, and a ghost town in the afternoons maybe this would be the way to go.  Those needing a break if its thier 3rd of 4th day at the resort would likely welcome this and it'd be a feasible to way to keep folks at the resort instead of them bolting for Bandon Crossings.  Additionally perhaps the turf could sustain carts if only used for the latter part of the day.

All other courses and morning rounds would remain the same in terms of cart restrictions.

Just a thought...

[Tim Pitner]

Kalen,

That is heresy.  They already have a cart for the only really tough part of the walk (the hill from 13 green to 14 tee).  I suppose 16 and 18 take a toll too if it's your second round of the day, but the walk isn't so tough to justify such a drastic change. 

[Wyatt Halliday]

I may get banned from Bandon or GCA.com for suggesting this  , but would it be possible to allow carts only at Bandon Trails if its your 2nd round of the day?

I've never played it, but if its a tough walk as many say it is, and a ghost town in the afternoons maybe this would be the way to go.  Those needing a break if its thier 3rd of 4th day at the resort would likely welcome this and it'd be a feasible to way to keep folks at the resort instead of them bolting for Bandon Crossings.  Additionally perhaps the turf could sustain carts if only used for the latter part of the day.

All other courses and morning rounds would remain the same in terms of cart restrictions.

Just a thought...

First off....I am one who tends to disagree often when someone says "X" course is an easy walk.

However, I have always played Trails as part of some set of 36 and have done so in every conceiveable way. I did not find it to be an impossible walk at all. I will admit that there are a few areas of the course where the walk can be demanding:

-ascending 7?
-13Green to 14tee is the obvious one
-ascending 16

Other than those three, the topography is no more severe than a moderately hilly course somewhere in the midwest.

I think the general public finds the absence of the ocean to be the determining factor when choosing which course to play. At least moreso than the perceived difficulty of the terrain.

FWIW, I've had several conversations lately regarding Bandon Trails and how vastly underrated it is.

 

[Will MacEwen]

I know 14 has been discussed to near death, but I have a question.

The hole gets much criticism, within and without of this site, for the green, and gets called goofy, a novelty, etc.  

Does the cart ride up to the tee ground add to the perception of the hole as being goofy?  

I think that the ride is such an intrusion that immediately identifies the hole as being out of character with the rest of the course, and the entire resort.  Having the ride and the difficult green is double whammy, that really makes the hole stick out, for better or for worse.

Sorry if this has been discussed before.  

[Jed Peters]

I think the cart ride is pretty cool--almost like a feeling of going "somewhere else" as an adventure from 13 to 14.

And, to be honest, that golf course is VASTLY underrated, and superior IMHO to Bandon Dunes.

[Kalen Braley]

Wyatt,

I have admitadly not played the course as stated in my previous post, so was only speculating as to the difficulty of the walk. It was simply a proposal based on the assumption that the walk is the biggest reason as to why the course is not getting the afternoon rounds like the other 2.

[Jason Topp]

Other than those three, the topography is no more severe than a moderately hilly course somewhere in the midwest.

I think the general public finds the absence of the ocean to be the determining factor when choosing which course to play. At least moreso than the perceived difficulty of the terrain.

FWIW, I've had several conversations lately regarding Bandon Trails and how vastly underrated it is.

Wyatt:

You are probably correct about the ocean being a bigger factor than the walk.  Nonetheless, the walk is more of a factor when part of a walking only course where many people play 36 holes.

I completely agree regarding how underrated it is. 

[Jim Nugent]

What do you guys think of the suggestions Michael Dugger made for re-routing BT? 

[Wyatt Halliday]

What do you guys think of the suggestions Michael Dugger made for re-routing BT? 

I might be able to live with 5 & 17 being back-to-back (I would need some additional convincing), and I agree that placing 16 earlier in the round could help save the legs on the inward journey. However, with a favorable wind the current sixteenth could be reached in two allowing for it to be a crucial final hole in match play.

The critical issue with me is the proposed change to the 15th. The angle of the fairway bunker is maximized by the current tee placement IMHO. It's part of what makes it potentially the best par four on the course (in my book anyway).

[Michael Dugger]

What do you guys think of the suggestions Michael Dugger made for re-routing BT? 

I might be able to live with 5 & 17 being back-to-back (I would need some additional convincing), and I agree that placing 16 earlier in the round could help save the legs on the inward journey. However, with a favorable wind the current sixteenth could be reached in two allowing for it to be a crucial final hole in match play.

The critical issue with me is the proposed change to the 15th. The angle of the fairway bunker is maximized by the current tee placement IMHO. It's part of what makes it potentially the best par four on the course (in my book anyway).

Really?  I think 15 kinda gets too much credit by virtue of a gorgeous green complex.

As far as the cross bunker on 15 goes, however, I don't see it being a great strategic bunker.  The farther out to the left one plays the more straight in the approach.  The green contours also favor an approach brought in straight on too.  The only time that bunker is an issue is when I've faded one bad, and to be honest, it's not often I even reach that thing....

I've revised my new routing, for the record

I say turn #16 into the new #4 and move the tees up and make it a par 4.

Move the tees back and make the old #4, my new #15, a par 5.  There is room to do it.     

[Wyatt Halliday]

What do you guys think of the suggestions Michael Dugger made for re-routing BT? 

I might be able to live with 5 & 17 being back-to-back (I would need some additional convincing), and I agree that placing 16 earlier in the round could help save the legs on the inward journey. However, with a favorable wind the current sixteenth could be reached in two allowing for it to be a crucial final hole in match play.

The critical issue with me is the proposed change to the 15th. The angle of the fairway bunker is maximized by the current tee placement IMHO. It's part of what makes it potentially the best par four on the course (in my book anyway).

Really?  I think 15 kinda gets too much credit by virtue of a gorgeous green complex.

As far as the cross bunker on 15 goes, however, I don't see it being a great strategic bunker.  The farther out to the left one plays the more straight in the approach.  The green contours also favor an approach brought in straight on too.  The only time that bunker is an issue is when I've faded one bad, and to be honest, it's not often I even reach that thing....

I've revised my new routing, for the record

I say turn #16 into the new #4 and move the tees up and make it a par 4.

Move the tees back and make the old #4, my new #15, a par 5.  There is room to do it.     

Hmmm, I've always felt that playing close to the right side of the cross bunker takes the menacing front portion of the green out of play.

On making #4 (now your new #15) a par five, couldn't you use the existing back tee on #16 (now your #4)??

[Michael Dugger]

What do you guys think of the suggestions Michael Dugger made for re-routing BT? 

I might be able to live with 5 & 17 being back-to-back (I would need some additional convincing), and I agree that placing 16 earlier in the round could help save the legs on the inward journey. However, with a favorable wind the current sixteenth could be reached in two allowing for it to be a crucial final hole in match play.

The critical issue with me is the proposed change to the 15th. The angle of the fairway bunker is maximized by the current tee placement IMHO. It's part of what makes it potentially the best par four on the course (in my book anyway).

Really?  I think 15 kinda gets too much credit by virtue of a gorgeous green complex.

As far as the cross bunker on 15 goes, however, I don't see it being a great strategic bunker.  The farther out to the left one plays the more straight in the approach.  The green contours also favor an approach brought in straight on too.  The only time that bunker is an issue is when I've faded one bad, and to be honest, it's not often I even reach that thing....

I've revised my new routing, for the record

I say turn #16 into the new #4 and move the tees up and make it a par 4.

Move the tees back and make the old #4, my new #15, a par 5.  There is room to do it.     

Hmmm, I've always felt that playing close to the right side of the cross bunker takes the menacing front portion of the green out of play.

On making #4 (now your new #15) a par five, couldn't you use the existing back tee on #16 (now your #4)??

Yes sir you could.  The only slightly awkward thing would be golfers walking from #3 green, around the current 4th to get to the new 16th tees.  This I have considered.

And I suppose your rationale regarding the false front on #15 makes sense, although one could easily "scoot" one up there if they'd played way out to the left like I mentioned

[Carl Nichols]

A friend of mine scoffed at me when I told him I was playing 1 of 4 rounds at BT.  I didn't bother to engage him, but I'm certain it had to do with its not being on the ocean, rather than the difficulty of the walk. 

[Wyatt Halliday]

What do you guys think of the suggestions Michael Dugger made for re-routing BT? 

I might be able to live with 5 & 17 being back-to-back (I would need some additional convincing), and I agree that placing 16 earlier in the round could help save the legs on the inward journey. However, with a favorable wind the current sixteenth could be reached in two allowing for it to be a crucial final hole in match play.

The critical issue with me is the proposed change to the 15th. The angle of the fairway bunker is maximized by the current tee placement IMHO. It's part of what makes it potentially the best par four on the course (in my book anyway).

Really?  I think 15 kinda gets too much credit by virtue of a gorgeous green complex.

As far as the cross bunker on 15 goes, however, I don't see it being a great strategic bunker.  The farther out to the left one plays the more straight in the approach.  The green contours also favor an approach brought in straight on too.  The only time that bunker is an issue is when I've faded one bad, and to be honest, it's not often I even reach that thing....

I've revised my new routing, for the record

I say turn #16 into the new #4 and move the tees up and make it a par 4.

Move the tees back and make the old #4, my new #15, a par 5.  There is room to do it.     

Hmmm, I've always felt that playing close to the right side of the cross bunker takes the menacing front portion of the green out of play.

On making #4 (now your new #15) a par five, couldn't you use the existing back tee on #16 (now your #4)??

Yes sir you could.  The only slightly awkward thing would be golfers walking from #3 green, around the current 4th to get to the new 16th tees.  This I have considered.

And I suppose your rationale regarding the false front on #15 makes sense, although one could easily "scoot" one up there if they'd played way out to the left like I mentioned

I'm interested to know where you would put the back tee. It appears from the aerials that any additional distance added would butt you up to either the existing 15th or 3rd green.

[Damon Groves]

Not sure the golf cart in the afternoon idea would work logistically having played the course. You would have to put in a lot of new work to get carts through especially from 13 green to 14 tee and from 14 tee down to the fairway. Plus some of what I and most everyone I know who has been there like about Bandon Dunes is the lack of carts. I would be very dissappointed if they added them. Just would take away from a place that just has a very special feeling.

Going back in May and can't wait.

[Ian_L]

Getting off the 15th green would be a pain as well.

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