[David Stamm]

Not wanting to highjack another thread, I decided to start this one to pose a question. Much like ANGC, Pebble has had quite a few architects since Neville and Grant first laid out the course who have performed work. Between AM redoing the greens on 8 and 13, Egan and his faux sand dunes (amongst many other changes) and Fowler and his work (including changing 18 into one of the best par 5's in the world), Sandy Tatum and his preparation work for the '72 Open (minor), Nicklaus and the new fifth hole and most recently the work of Palmer, the question is, can Neville and Grant still be called the architects of record?

[Anthony Gray]

  The original routing for 18 has remained the same so I would have to give credit to Neville and Grant. The figure 8 routing works perfectly.

  Anthony

 

[Tom_Doak]

Anthony:

The routing really hasn't remained quite the same.  It follows the same corridors, but the original 18th was a par-4, and the ninth and tenth holes were also different ... and those ARE some of the most prominent holes on the course.

Pebble is one of those rare courses that EVOLVED into greatness.  (Muirfield is another.)  Perhaps C. Darwin should get some of the credit.

[David Stamm]

  The original routing for 18 has remained the same so I would have to give credit to Neville and Grant. The figure 8 routing works perfectly.

  Anthony

 

So Anthony, is it your opinion that as long as the routing is the same, it matters not about the rest?

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

David Stamm,

I believe that Macro architecture takes precedent over Micro architecture.

[David Stamm]

David Stamm,

I believe that Macro architecture takes precedent over Micro architecture.

In your opinion, are greens and bunkers micro?

[Rick Wolffe]

Thanks for starting this link, as our summary on Pebble Beach may be on the skimpy side, and hope we did not leave anything out.

Pebble Beach – originally designed by Jack Neville & Douglas Grant circa 1919

For eight decades Pebble Beach Golf Links in Pebble Beach, CA, has hosted championship golf.  It was the second golf course to be designed and built on the Monterey Peninsula.  After it opened in 1919 it was modified and improved over the course of the next decade.  W. Herbert Fowler is credited with converting the 18th to a par 5 hole by moving the green. Chandler Egan is credited with a significant redesign in preparation for its first national championship, the 1929 U.S. Men’s Amateur.  “Egan created extensive manmade bunkers designed to look as if many greens were simply set into dunes.”  {Pebble Beach Golf Links, The Official History, by Neil Hotelling, Pebble Beach Company, 1999, p.69} The major changes by Egan were new greens on almost every hole and a complete redesign of the routing of the 6th and 9th holes.  {ibid pp. 70-77}  The design remained substantially intact for the next 40 years.  In preparation for the 1972 U.S. Open, the course underwent an extensive restoration to bring it back to its 1928 design.  Over the years, the elements and maintenance practices had changed the look and feel of the course.{ibid pp. 193 –194}  The most significant modification to the 1929 design was made in 1998, when construction began on a new 5th hole which was re-routed along the coast and the original 5th was soon taken out of play.

[Rich Goodale]

Pebble is one of those rare courses that EVOLVED into greatness.  (Muirfield is another.)  Perhaps C. Darwin should get some of the credit.

Tom


I don't think this is "rare" at all, aprticularly when you are talking of courses on my side of the pond.  Along with Muirfield, great GB&I courses which 'EVOLVED into greatness" include:

County Down
The Old Course
Turnberry
Portrush
Carnoustie
Ballybunion
Dornoch
Prestwick
North Berwick
Cruden Bay
Lahinch
Waterville
Portmarnock
Troon
etc.

In the USA, in addition to Pebble Beach, does not evolution apply (in varying degrees) to courses such as:

Shinnecock Hills
Augusta National
Merion
etc.

?

Rich

[JWL]

David

Just so the record is straight.   When we redesigned the new 5th hole, I also was involved with some modifications to other holes.   Primarily, the tees and fairway bunkering at 9.   Fairway bunkering slight change at 10.   Bunkering on the right side of 13 proposed...didn't get to see it done.   Fairway bunkering and modification of greenside bunkering, but not the fairway bunkering on the tee shot, that came later.
The 18th green had nearly 800 sq ft added as the new wall was constructed further away from the original green.   New drainage was installed throughout the course, but biggest drainage project was large pipe under the fairway bunker along the wall running up to the green.   Also the present back tee at 18 with new faux wall construction.

[Anthony Gray]

David Stamm,

I believe that Macro architecture takes precedent over Micro architecture.

In your opinion, are greens and bunkers micro?

  David I think the basic plan was there and the others just made improvements.

  Tom D,

  To my knowledge although some holes were present Neville and Grant did the current routing of 18 holes. Correct or no?

  Anthony

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

David Stamm,

I believe that Macro architecture takes precedent over Micro architecture.

In your opinion, are greens and bunkers micro?

Yes., certainly the configuration of the bunkers.

[David Stamm]

David Stamm,

I believe that Macro architecture takes precedent over Micro architecture.

In your opinion, are greens and bunkers micro?

Yes., certainly the configuration of the bunkers.

Pat, if the configuration of bunkers changes the nature of tee shots and approaches and the ability of the player to recover from them, does this have less of an impact than the route a hole follows?

[David Stamm]

Pebble is one of those rare courses that EVOLVED into greatness.  (Muirfield is another.)  Perhaps C. Darwin should get some of the credit.

 
In the USA, in addition to Pebble Beach, does not evolution apply (in varying degrees) to courses such as:

Augusta National
 
 

Rich

Rich, this is highly debatable. Do you think ANGC has evolved or devolved to the course we have now? With all the changes, is the course better for it?

[Adam Clayman]

Must be a fine line between evolve and disfigure?

Evolution strikes me as being altered by natural forces.
 
ANGC's, natural force is man made and illustrates another downside of ego. The worst part is how lemming-like many in the golf world think. (or don't) "If Augusta did it, we can too" type mentality.

Bowing to the whim of the day, prettifying hazards, because the members of a club can afford it, is wasteful make work. (except for the archie who gets the fee)

[Tom_Doak]

Well, I have to agree with Rich ... to a point.

One of the main misunderstandings people (not Rich) have about Darwin's Theory of Evolution is the notion that it means things evolve FOR THE BETTER.  Darwin said nothing about that.  He said that everything evolves over generations based on adaptation to outside forces and natural selection -- which in the case of golf courses can mean everything from Nature's own formation of vegetation, to misguided green chairmen or even highway construction.

Augusta has evolved due to many things, but most of all due to The Masters and to the attention it delivers to the club.

My original point about Pebble Beach was that it is unusual because you really ought to give significant credit for it to three or four different architects.  Whereas a course like Riviera has also seen a lot of work over the years, but the main reason it's great are the two guys who were there at the very start.

[Rich Goodale]

David

I'm not sure if ANGC is better or worse for the architectural changes which have been made (9, 16, etc.) as I don't know enough of the old (pure-Mackenzie/Jones) course to make an opinion.  As the the recent changes are largely cosmetic/course set-up issues, and can be reversed (what trees go up can also come down....), I'll wait and see.  I do believe that the tournament has not been as interesting over the past 5-10 years as I rememb er it in the past,  but this may have as much to do the technology and the players as with the set-up.

Tom

I agree that evolution does not necessarily mean improvement.  One interesting definition speaks of evolution as a process which creates heterogeneity.  In this regard, the extent to which there is such a thing as the "Augusta Syndrome" implies retrograde evolution (i.e. homogeneity).  It also says that the best courses get more unique over time.  I would agree with this, based on my limited experience.

Rich

[Sean_A]

Pebble is one of those rare courses that EVOLVED into greatness.  (Muirfield is another.)  Perhaps C. Darwin should get some of the credit.

Tom


I don't think this is "rare" at all, aprticularly when you are talking of courses on my side of the pond.  Along with Muirfield, great GB&I courses which 'EVOLVED into greatness" include:

County Down
The Old Course
Turnberry
Portrush
Carnoustie
Ballybunion
Dornoch
Prestwick
North Berwick
Cruden Bay
Lahinch
Waterville
Portmarnock
Troon
etc.

Rich

Rich

You are right.  I would say nearly all the great courses of GB&I are evolved from something lesser.  Change gets a bad rap around here, but its inevitable and sometimes it is for the best.

Ciao

[Michael Dugger]

So who is responsible for the dramatic change in bunker appearance from Egan's "faux dunes" to what we have today?

Does anyone know?

(besides the work JWL mentioned)

[Anthony Gray]

    I still do not like the bunker with steps on 15. It just does not seem to fit with the other bunkers on the course.

   Anthony

[Pete Lavallee]

So who is responsible for the dramatic change in bunker appearance from Egan's "faux dunes" to what we have today?

Does anyone know?

(besides the work JWL mentioned)

Michael,

I asked that question on a thread several years ago, along with just exactly when were the faux dunes abandoned? I never recieved an answer. It is amazing that no one on this disscusion board seems to know who is responsible for the bunker style on one of our top 5 golf courses!

[Adam Clayman]

I can't answer who is responsible, but, I can tell you that the area is prone to Kikuyu Grass, which is most prolific. Not that there is much KK on the course today, because they stay on top of eradicating the weed.

 I'd speculate nature was likely responsible for the grasses taking over the faux dunes. Then with the Augusta Syndrome taking shape in the 70's there was likely no reason to try to recapture the dunesey look. 

Paul Cowley would be a great source for an opinion. I do remember hearing stories about how they use to let cart traffic almost everywhere on the course. That created a maintenance nightmare and is why there are cart paths with curbs and roads running through the course. People who criticize the course for these eyesores should understand why they are there before they speak. Blame them on the lazy, rude and disrespectful golfer.

[Bill_McBride]

I do remember hearing stories about how they use to let cart traffic almost everywhere on the course. That created a maintenance nightmare and is why there are cart paths with curbs and roads running through the course. People who criticize the course for these eyesores should understand why they are there before they speak. Blame them on the lazy, rude and disrespectful golfer.

Melvyn Morrow is right! 

Imagine Pebble Beach with NO cart traffic.  I haven't played there since 1978, played there frequently from 1955-1978, no cart paths then although some were being installed in the late '70s.

Adam, are there ever carts at Cypress Point?  I've never seen one in my two visits, but there are no paths that I can remember.

[Adam Clayman]

 Bill, There are carts at CPC, few, but they are used. Paths are unneeded if there's less traffic.

I remember reading that a typical blade of grass can't handle more than about 50 carts a day before it stresses to the point of going dormant, BEFORE IT DIES.  That's a simplification, but, I'm sure there enough experts around here who will share their knowledge. 

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