[Tom Naccarato]

Chambers was built after I wrote that, but is it fair to say Bandon/Pacific may have paved the way for Chambers?  I happen to think Pacific is a better course than Bandon, so that's why I gave it the nod.

BTW Jay, your article said Bandon, not Pacific.

Garland, thats what happens when you take a sentence out of context.  I meant the bandon dunes resort. 

A Jay Flemma writing error? Come on! You have got to be kidding me! That shit just doesn't happen.......

[Sean_A]

Of the newer courses I have seen the only one I would nominate is Tobacco Road.  Strantz re-introduced bold and even ott design because of his instance on allowing the terrain to be the guiding force of the design, but he wasn't at all afraid to shape the land (even aggressively) if he thought it would further his bold concepts.  Included in this boldness are blind shots which have long been out of fashion.  Strantz also celebrated the now very rare concept of no hazards - "find your ball, take a practice swing and fire away".   Strantz perfectly realizes the "make it easier than it looks" philosophy of Dr Mac while still incorporating some very stiff shot requirements.  Finally, some of the natural hazards used are crazy difficult and it is a credit to Strantz that he didn't soften them to coddle the player. 

Though I am not sure Lederach deserves to be a top 3 architecturally important design in recent years, I will say that it has far and away the best use of bunkers I have seen on a new course.  Kelly should be given mega kudos for really pushing the concept of centreline hazards which in essence makes it very easy to use very little sand throughout the course.  So far as I am concerned, Lederach is a bunkering masterclass and archies should really have a look at how well Kelly utilized such a small number of bunkers.

Naccers

I don't know what your issues are with Jay, but your behaviour toward him is not conducive to encouraging an open and frank discussion.  Get a grip, a new year is upon us, live and let live.   

Ciao

[Jay Flemma]

Lederach is an excellent course, Sean.  I'm even happier that those from across the pond are playing it.  It is a hidden gem and more:)  He made a silk purse out of a sow's ear with that piece of property.

[Garland Bayley]

...
Though I am not sure Lederach deserves to be a top 3 architecturally important design in recent years, I will say that it has far and away the best use of bunkers I have seen on a new course.  Kelly should be given mega kudos for really pushing the concept of centreline hazards which in essence makes it very easy to use very little sand throughout the course.  So far as I am concerned, Lederach is a bunkering masterclass and archies should really have a look at how well Kelly utilized such a small number of bunkers.
...

Thanks Sean,

Strong words from the bunker king!

Greg Norman should take note.

[Anthony Gray]

  Sean and All,

  I just do not see the boldness of Tobacco Road catching on. Are there other courses since that have adopted the same boldness? I can think of the Castle Course. Does enyone know if Kidd ever visited TR?

  Anthony

[Ronald Montesano]

Let's isolate 1982 as the year of Sawgrass (and my 11th grade in high school, no less.)  Since 1982, what has mattered most?  High Pointe certainly deserves consideration, as do the destination resorts of Koehler and Bandon.  What about Kiawah Island's Ocean Course (around 1991)?  The links course at Wild Dunes preceded TPC by 2 years, so that one is out.

I suggest that we should not consider re-done courses of any sort in this thread, so toss out Bethpage and Oakmont.  Start a new thread for that one.

Wife's yelling...be back later!

[Garland Bayley]

Ronald,

I can't see one architect getting more than one entry in this short list. Therefore, if you say High Pointe, I don't think you can name Pacific Dunes, because there is an underlying style and philosophy that remains the same. Also, since Pete is there with Sawgrass, I don't think you can add Koehler and the Ocean Course.

Share the love Ronald, share the love.

[Chuck Brown]

Chambers was built after I wrote that, but is it fair to say Bandon/Pacific may have paved the way for Chambers?  I happen to think Pacific is a better course than Bandon, so that's why I gave it the nod.

BTW Jay, your article said Bandon, not Pacific.

Garland, thats what happens when you take a sentence out of context.  I meant the bandon dunes resort. 

A Jay Flemma writing error? Come on! You have got to be kidding me! That shit just doesn't happen.......

Isn't this the kind of remark that we'd all like to have stopped by Discussion Moderators?

As for the content of this thread, I am with many of the suggestions above.

My own humble, personal, barely-informed selections and the reasons why (if nobody minds my actually discussing the topic at hand):

PUBLIC
1.  Bandon Resort (B. Dunes, P. Dunes, P. Trails)
     [The state of the art for public golf development.]
2.  Rustic Canyon
     [The Future of Golf, to steal (appropriately) from G. Shackelford.]
3.  Whistling Straits
     [The most ambitious public course of the specified post-Sawgrass period.]

PRIVATE
1.  Sand Hills GC
     [Again, the state of the art, for private golf retreats.]
2.  East Lake GC
     [The most consequential urban golf course/golf club of this generation, and perhaps several generations.]
3.  Sebonack GC
     [Location, location, location.  Any course built on that property, with those neighbors, is going to be talked about, studied, copied, criticized, lionized, villified, worshipped, hated, and generally discussed, as much as any course in the last quarter-century, and it will probably still be talked and written about in the next century.  Oh, and there are those two names -- Doak and Nicklaus.]

Naturally, I need to be invited -- soon -- to play at a Sebonack and Sand Hills in order to be able to back up my opinions.

[Anthony Gray]

  Chuck,

  Barely informed? Great logic and agreed!

  Anthony

[Garland Bayley]

...
PUBLIC
1.  Bandon Resort (B. Dunes, P. Dunes, P. Trails)
     [The state of the art for public golf development.]
2.  Rustic Canyon
     [The Future of Golf, to steal (appropriately) from G. Shackelford.]
3.  Whistling Straits
     [The most ambitious public course of the specified post-Sawgrass period.]
...

Sorry Chuck, but that's six courses and it seems for the most part to be about the environs more than the architecture.

[Michael Whitaker]

I will say that it has far and away the best use of bunkers I have seen on a new course.  Kelly should be given mega kudos for really pushing the concept of centreline hazards which in essence makes it very easy to use very little sand throughout the course.  So far as I am concerned, Lederach is a bunkering masterclass and archies should really have a look at how well Kelly utilized such a small number of bunkers.

Sean - This is a MAJOR endorsement coming from you! Just on this statement alone I am putting Lederach to the top of my "must see" list. You have done more to make me think about the proper use of bunkers than anyone on this site. I agree with Garland... you are the Bunker King!!!

[Michael Whitaker]

Naccers

I don't know what your issues are with Jay, but your behaviour toward him is not conducive to encouraging an open and frank discussion.  Get a grip, a new year is upon us, live and let live.

I agree with Sean... it's time to give your jihad rest.

[Chuck Brown]

...
PUBLIC
1.  Bandon Resort (B. Dunes, P. Dunes, P. Trails)
     [The state of the art for public golf development.]
2.  Rustic Canyon
     [The Future of Golf, to steal (appropriately) from G. Shackelford.]
3.  Whistling Straits
     [The most ambitious public course of the specified post-Sawgrass period.]
...

Sorry Chuck, but that's six courses and it seems for the most part to be about the environs more than the architecture.

Busted!
Since I've been caught and publicly dressed down, I'd better clean it up.
1.  Pacific Dunes Course - Bandon OR
2.  Rustic Canyon GC - Moorpark CA
3.  Whistling Straits - Straits Course - Kohler WI

My choices were (guilty as charged) based on a lot more than the pure architecture.  But the architecture, alone, is the central feature of what makes each one pick-worthy, I think.

[Garland Bayley]

Chuck,

Don't you think the Straits course is a poor choice due to Pete choosing to grass it to prevent runup shots? Certainly that is not a architectural feature we want duplicated.

[Chuck Brown]

Chuck,

Don't you think the Straits course is a poor choice due to Pete choosing to grass it to prevent runup shots? Certainly that is not a architectural feature we want duplicated.

Garland, I'd agree that the Straits course might be a poor choice if the criteria were "Courses whose design we want to duplicate elsewhere, and often."  Personally, I think it is too severe.  And what you say has enormous merit.

If you pressed me on that point (I love it, it gives me a chance to pick another!) I might pick We-Ko-Pa on the basis of "courses and features we'd like to duplicate elsewhere..."

[Noel Freeman]

[
Though I am not sure Lederach deserves to be a top 3 architecturally important design in recent years, I will say that it has far and away the best use of bunkers I have seen on a new course.  Kelly should be given mega kudos for really pushing the concept of centreline hazards which in essence makes it very easy to use very little sand throughout the course.  So far as I am concerned, Lederach is a bunkering masterclass and archies should really have a look at how well Kelly utilized such a small number of bunkers.

Naccers

I don't know what your issues are with Jay, but your behaviour toward him is not conducive to encouraging an open and frank discussion.  Get a grip, a new year is upon us, live and let live.   

Ciao
[/quote]

Sean-  can you IM Tuco please when you get a second...

[Phil McDade]

Chuck,

Don't you think the Straits course is a poor choice due to Pete choosing to grass it to prevent runup shots? Certainly that is not a architectural feature we want duplicated.

Garland, I'd agree that the Straits course might be a poor choice if the criteria were "Courses whose design we want to duplicate elsewhere, and often."  Personally, I think it is too severe.  And what you say has enormous merit.

If you pressed me on that point (I love it, it gives me a chance to pick another!) I might pick We-Ko-Pa on the basis of "courses and features we'd like to duplicate elsewhere..."

Garland:

I'm reminded of the controversy that sometimes follows when Time magazine names someone like Hitler or Khomeini as its Person of the Year. Correct, yes, though no one's singing their virtuous praises.

I still think WStraits is one of the "most important architecturally important courses since Sawgrass," given why it was built -- to host major tournaments. That distinguishes it significantly from most of the other courses mentioned, arguably even Chambers Bay, which had a significant "public outreach" -- for lack of a better term -- component for it being built.

Given the continued collision between technology, classic-era golf courses, and the squeeze put on golf's ruling bodies, it wouldn't surprise me in my lifetime to see courses built strictly to accommodate majors become the norm, perhaps the exclusive venue, for majors. (I note that on the Erin Hills website, a course closed until July 1, 2009, for renovations in preparation of the 2011 (!!) US Amateur, its first virture mentioned for hosting a major is its room to accomodate spectators and other tourney needs, not the architecture...) If that's the case, then WStraits clearly led the way post-Sawgrass.

[Nick Schaan]

I would love to here what it is about Sawgrass that makes it architecturally important? I will agree it certainly is but why?

[Garland Bayley]

Nick,

Wouldn't it be at least a combination of two major things. Pete's shot testing architecture and stadium golf? Add to that minor things like a high profile island green, being built to host a major, etc.

[Anthony Gray]

I would love to here what it is about Sawgrass that makes it architecturally important? I will agree it certainly is but why?

  I would think "target golf". It may sound overly simple but options for the most part are limited. And as stated before the ability to build a course enywhere.

  Anthony

[Garland Bayley]

Hi Anthony,

I think the shot testing idea, refines target golf further. Pete not only demanded a quality shot, but he also asked for specific shaping. His favorite way to build a two shotter is to make the player bend the ball once in each direction.

[Nick Schaan]

I would agree the things that made it important are that is perhaps the greatest combination of strategic, heroic, and penal golf shots, and holes. I played the course in 2008 at the golf show with a bunch of my compatriates from DMK Golf Design, and was surprised by how many of the holes had all three strategic, heroic, and penal elements, of varrying varieties, and even though it is designed strictly for the best players in the world, we wre all able to get around it wiht a little caution and thought.

There are so many cituations where Dye uses classical even golden age concpets in different ways to develop options and required shotmaking.

The other thing I think is really important is how he used diabolical shapes around greens and bunkers. Many of the old courses around the world the types of shapes are found around the green. I can't help but wonder what TPC would look like in cool season grasses, and how close fescues and such would be around the greens.

And then the stadium effect is huge, Look at a bunch of the course built post Sawgrass wiht realestate around them  


My three choices for most important since:

Sand Hills: it really set the stage for the resurgance of a architecturally wild natural style in the states.

Kingsbarns: perhaps the finest built golf course, and a fine example of somthing that looks very very natural, and yet it totaly man made

Chambers Bay: was built really for one specific reason, to bring a major championship to the Pacific Northwest. the amount of care and thought during design and in construction that was given to circulation and needs other than golf was huge.

[Ian Andrew]

Sand Hills – Coore and Crenshaw
Minimalisms Landmark Course

The work at Sand Hills became the defining course for this generation – the ripples still continue to influence even the biggest names in the business. Sand Hills was a great natural site featuring massive rolling hills, natural sand blowouts, and long views out to the horizon. When presented with the site, Coore and Crenshaw realized that there were hundreds of natural holes in every direction. Rather than change the site or link the very best holes he could with long paths - they patiently walked and walked the site till he found a progression of 18 natural holes. They let the flow of the land lead them around the property. The blowouts became the primary strategy and the unique quality that sets this course apart from all others. Coore and Crenshaw recognized that these blowouts had the size and scale to compete with the wide open space and chose to swing his fairways around these features with large lateral movements. This approach was most appropriate since the wide lateral movement fit the monumental scale of the site. The course is strategically outstanding, sits in complete harmony with the scale of the site and blends perfectly into the surrounding landscape – think Prairie Dunes on a grand scale.

Pacific Dunes – Tom Doak
Greatness ignores convention

Doak was clever enough to see the opportunity to contrast David Kidd’s layout and deliver a new version of Cypress Point. He and his team resisted the period’s drive for length, and instead he opted for a golf course that was beautiful and eminently playable. It took guts to ignore the typical “minimum” 7000 yards or get constrained by other standards. The unconventional placement of threes throughout the round is a testament to using what was found, rather than forcing something in. They were smart to recognize the golf course would be very exposed to the wind, and created lots of width in the course to keep it playable in tough conditions. The use of interior bunkering to place emphasis on driving the ball in a mild wind was a clever way of keeping width and challenge at the same time. There use of interior hazards became very influential on the courses that have tried to draw on the minimalist approach. Pacific Dunes showed golf that a great course could be built without length and be intentionally playable for the average player.

Rustic Canyon – Gil Hanse
Great golf can be built for very little

The influence is primarily the economic model. The golf course design follows the land, with little shaping beyond the tees, bunkers and green sites. This means they were able to build it for a modest budget, and the course only needs a modest green fee to make a return. Since the course is well designed, it is popular with all types of players. From a beginner to scratch handicap, each player is given a different test to fit the limits of their skill. Because it is so well liked, the course is busy, which guarantees the course will generate income for the community or ownership.

The genius of the design is the course echoes the strategies and spirit of St. Andrew’s better than almost any other course designed in recent times. The green’s are very complex and involve strict placement off the tee to ensure access to pin positions. The turf beyond the greens is kept intentionally short to make the ground game the game of choice. This brings in an element of chance and luck rarely seen on other modern courses. The bunkering is present, but like St. Andrew’s, the player feels they have lots of room to play safe away from most bunkering. The fairways are wide, with an immense amount of options, but often the most dangerous route is the one that opens up the green. Gil Hanse, Jim Wagner and Geoff Shackelford have managed to bring the spirit of Scottish golf into a California Canyon.

[Nick Schaan]

Ian,

I agree totally with Rustic Canyon.

[Jay Flemma]

[

Sean-  can you IM Tuco please when you get a second...

Sean, don't bother.  You wont want to get dragged in or be bothered. 

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