[Mark Bourgeois]

When both Ran M and Tom D write “texture” on separate occasions (Royal Melbourne West 15 and Pinehurst #2, respectively), one pays attention.  So, thinking about this, The Honors must be one of the best courses on which to learn and appreciate the concept – not that I do.  Calling to mind a line used to describe Yale, the course does appear “hewed out of a veritable wilderness.” 

Only at TH they left a lot of the wilderness in. (Except for the new and unimproved 10th, whose angularity is a blooper on the texture lesson plan. IMHO.)

So what is "texture" all about, and is it just a non-functional aesthetic thing (window dressing), or is there some sort of Texture Law that only bad courses break?

What are examples of "good" texture?  Is there such a thing as "bad" texture?

Confusedly yours,

[Mark Pearce]

Don't know.  But then I haven't a clue what the word might mean in the context of a golf course.  Enlighten me, please.

[Rich Goodale]

My guess is that "texture" in the context of GCA is pretty much the same as "je ne sais quoi."  Hope that clarifies things, Marks.

[Mark Bourgeois]

Well if I knew I wouldn't be asking!  Near as I can figure, it's like "hair" on a golf course.

Here's Ran's photo and caption from his writeup of the 2nd at TH:

This view down the par five 2nd gives a hint of the different colors and textures to come.

Here's a photo of the 14th from his writeup that seems pretty hairy textured:


Help!

[Bill_McBride]

My guess is that "texture" in the context of GCA is pretty much the same as "je ne sais quoi."  Hope that clarifies things, Marks.

Qu'est que c'est zees 'texture,' eh?

[Tom_Doak]

Mark:

Years ago, I asked Pete Dye basically this same question, and he answered my question with a question -- he asked me,

"In all your travels, what course that you've seen has done the most research and experimenting with different native grasses and different turfgrasses?"

The correct answer was Pine Valley.

[Mark Bourgeois]

Is there such a thing as bad texture - I mean beyond the obvious example of planting zebra-stripe grasses in the fairway and that sort of thing?

Who else besides Pine Valley?

Where and why du the idea originate?

Did Pine Valley popularize it?

Does it matter? Why?

[Chris Cupit]

Mark,

I'm not sure your Honors pics do a good job illustrating texture.  In fact the picture of #14 shows too much uniformity.  I've always thought texture is the contrast among the grasses that helps outline or break up what can often look a bit monotonous--thus I think #14 is a bad example.  Below is an example from my course that I think nicely shows a mix of many grasses--their different blades, colors, shades, sizes all make up a cool texture I think:

Grasses (and sedges) are:  bermuda, bent, fescue, zoysia, lovegrass and broomsedge

[Chris Cupit]

More texture--tightly cut tees, trees, longer shaggier grass around tees, bunkers, blue fescue, "wild" fescues, scotchbroom, creek (not in view from these angles but a nice contrast when approaching the green)

First pic--the tee box center of pic comes right out of the bunker beyond it--only a strip of some fescue seperates the bunker on #1 from #2 tee.  Tee at bottom of page is for hole 18 while 1 green is top left.



Second pic shows top of left bunker that forms #2 tee and is a view walking down off 18 tee looking back to #1 green.  A creek is just on the other side of the green and wraps in front of the green as well.

[Mark Bourgeois]

Chris and Tom, thank you both for the lesson.

Wonder if this got really started with inland golf: that bunker-lip hair in your last picture Chris looks heath-like.

Is there some sort of design principle that explains / validates texture, like "naturalism"? It seems like it would be more expensive; is it?

Mark

[Rich Goodale]

Mark:

Years ago, I asked Pete Dye basically this same question, and he answered my question with a question -- he asked me,

"In all your travels, what course that you've seen has done the most research and experimenting with different native grasses and different turfgrasses?"

The correct answer was Pine Valley.

I do not understand this, Tom.

What does research and experimentation have to do with "texture?"  Whatever that is....?

PS--if you have to research and experiment on "native grasses" does that not mean that you have no idea as to what nature has already given you at the site?  My understanding is that the land on which Pine Valley sits was thickly forested when Crump found it in its "natural" state (i.e. no grasses of any type, "native" and otherwise).  Have I been misinformed?

Merry and Happy

Rich

[Bart Bradley]

Mark:

I can't speak for Ran or Tom D and what they meant by texture by here is the definition that seems to most likely apply:
 (from www.thefreedictionary.com)
Texture -noun - The quality given to a piece of art, literature, or music by the interrelationship of its elements.

I would say that a hole or course that demonstrates good texture is one that blends the elements...the grasses, the hazards, the greensite etc. ... in a particularly pleasing and harmonious way.

Accordingly, I would agree and disagree with your notion that the Honors is a good place to study texture.  I find most of the holes there do blend the natural and golf elements beautifully but that 1 or 2 are jarringly disharmonious.

What do you think about that?

Bart

[Jim Nugent]

Chris, your course looks cool.  I keep hoping for you to give us photo/description tour one of these days. 

[Mark Bourgeois]

Good effort there, Bart. A dictionary, whoda thunk!

It looks like Chris and Tom interpret it to mean simply: lots of different kinds of grasses (and grass-like plants).

It looks like Ran interprets it to mean more specifically the, well, textures, like a grain or fabric:
"This view down the par five 2nd gives a hint of the different colors and textures to come."

Note he breaks down texture into the *effect* of the different grasses: colors and textures.  By Chris's and Tom's definitions, it seems like texture is an ingredient: grass variety.  By Ran's definition, and I think Bart's as well, it's not the thing (grass), it's the product of the proper combination of ingredients.

Best guess is Chris and Tom have moved past thinking about the effect -- they know how to use ingredients to produce the desired effects -- but really mean the same thing as Ran.

Do they?

The OED offers a definition specific to the natural:
2. b. Any natural structure having an appearance or consistence as if woven; a tissue; a web, e.g. of a spider.

Other defs in the OED are closer to the Free but indicate the Free's definition is intended for the arts, music, etc.  It seems "texture" on a golf course means more than just the interrelationship of the elements.

In which case, The Honors ain't dead yet!  Except for the 10th -- is that one of the holes you meant, Bart?

For that little lost post of Rich's: "Baa! Baa! Baa!..."

[Chris Cupit]

I do think of fabrics when I think of texture.  For texture I think of corderouy versus silk, a tweed jacket  versus a navy blazer.  I also think in terms of patterns like a tie--paisley, solid, stripes or a club tie (certainley texture there).  Obviously a person can look good in a non "textured outfit"--khaki pants, loafers, white shirt solid tie and navy blazer.  A very crisp, clean look--maybe the Augusta National look.  On the other hand someone with proper sense could mix in some texture--say a striped tie, maybe a tweed jacket or one with slight colors running through its predominant colour.  Of course you have the stereotype of mixing stripes and plaids and having a truly horrific look but I think proponents of more texture are shooting for the stylish combination in nature of shapes, sizes, colors, textures (how it feels to the touch).

Of course nature has an infinite supply of texture even among the most uniform looking landcapes.  But, adding grasses and other things can highlight the look.

As it goes with "native" grasses at least for me much of what I thought was "native" (bermuda grass in GA) wasn't and much that I never imagined would be "native" or indiginous to GA was--yucca for instance.     

[Mike_Young]

I do think of fabrics when I think of texture.  For texture I think of corderouy versus silk, a tweed jacket  versus a navy blazer.  I also think in terms of patterns like a tie--paisley, solid, stripes or a club tie (certainley texture there).  Obviously a person can look good in a non "textured outfit"--khaki pants, loafers, white shirt solid tie and navy blazer.  A very crisp, clean look--maybe the Augusta National look.  On the other hand someone with proper sense could mix in some texture--say a striped tie, maybe a tweed jacket or one with slight colors running through its predominant colour.  Of course you have the stereotype of mixing stripes and plaids and having a truly horrific look but I think proponents of more texture are shooting for the stylish combination in nature of shapes, sizes, colors, textures (how it feels to the touch).

I had heard you were really into fabrics etc while attending interior design classes and floral arranging classes....and the person telling me such said you really lked silk ...especially the little pajamas and slippers you had in the dorm.....    the other person was more into burlap.....

[Bart Bradley]

Mark:

Interesting.

The free's definition applies to the arts?...and somehow, then, doesn't apply to architecture?

I would think that the definitions discussing the arts would be much more applicable...certainly, the remaining definitions most refer to something tactile or by your definition looks "woven"..golf courses do not seem to fit either of these in my experience...I think the term "texture" when describing a golf course must be something you can see, not feel and that the more ethereal definitions must apply.

Mark, a variety of grasses alone certainly cannot provide texture ...that is just a mixture...texture is deeper, multi-dimensional....a painting with many colors alone has no texture...one with layer upon layer of complexity..now that is what texture is all about...

As far as the Honors, I agree that the changes made to the 10th are disappointing and I find the 7th to be a jarring juxtaposition to what has come before it.

Bart

[Chris Cupit]

Chris, your course looks cool.  I keep hoping for you to give us photo/description tour one of these days. 

Thanks Jim.  I keep being a slacker but it will happen....one day.  Actually I was looking through some old stuff and found a notebook that I kept a diary with during my course renovation.  I've thought of a layman's view that looked at the changes to each hole (well, maybe not every hole) that tries to give some insight as to what I/we/the architect was thinking as the job progressed.  I can assure you while we had a detailed "plan", what makes the course are the in the dirt changes and ideas you get sitting around during the breaks with the shapers (or reading GCA ).

[Chris Cupit]

[/quote]

I had heard you were really into fabrics etc while attending interior design classes and floral arranging classes....and the person telling me such said you really lked silk ...especially the little pajamas and slippers you had in the dorm.....    the other person was more into burlap.....
[/quote]

Yeah, yeah.  Actually they were satin--couldn't afford the good stuff in college   Fat boy would have had some too but silk jammies weren't made in XXXXXL back then   Charlie only switched to burlap out of neccesity and kept with it as it reminded him of his days as a youth, chafing himself by chasing the ice cream truck in his corduroy pants down the streets of Fort Mill.

[Mike_Young]

I had heard you were really into fabrics etc while attending interior design classes and floral arranging classes....and the person telling me such said you really lked silk ...especially the little pajamas and slippers you had in the dorm.....    the other person was more into burlap.....
[/quote]

Yeah, yeah.  Actually they were satin--couldn't afford the good stuff in college   Fat boy would have had some too but silk jammies weren't made in XXXXXL back then   Charlie only switched to burlap out of neccesity and kept with it as it reminded him of his days as a youth, chafing himself by chasing the ice cream truck in his corduroy pants down the streets of Fort Mill.
[/quote]
He caught the ice cream truck

[Tom_Doak]

Mark:

Yes, texture is both a physical property of individual grasses, AND the overall effect of combining them in a landscape at different mowing heights.  Those effects can be overdone, but when they're done right, they add a lot to the character of a course.

Rich:

Pine Valley was a huge creative project, and you are correct that all of the stuff now referred to as "native" was in fact not there originally ... it was arranged and rearranged by Eb Steineger over about 50 years of experimentation.  He tried everything under the sun.  In most people's hands, that would have come out "jarringly disharmonious" in Bart's words, but nobody has ever said that about Pine Valley, so kudos to Mr. Steineger.

That's one reason architects are afraid to use textures more; it takes a lot of follow-up to get it right, so we can't do it without excellent backup.

The importance of texture should not be underestimated.  In construction, oftentimes the shapers try to do too much themselves, because we haven't added the texture yet and they don't understand it ... they are trying to "define" everything with dirt landforms, because it's all one color and texture while they are working on it.  One time when I had this problem, I asked this old shaper who'd been working in the business for 25+ years if he ever went back to see the courses he'd built with grass on them.  And he said that he never had!

[Chris Cupit]

Mark,

I've been up at the Honors since '91 and I agree about #7 and #10.  Since day one, I've always felt #7 was just ugly.  Not only the seemingly out of place cross ties (odd to say for a PD course) but the funny looking/artificial mounding along the right and the lack of any definition at all on that side of the hole.  I also loved the old #10 green with its brutal high front portion that fell sharpley off to the back right bowl.  Unfortunately, in the name of fairness the green was neutered and softened such that the unique high front, low back feature lost most of its sting.  The second green lasted from '92-'07 and the new green is a truly uninspired effort.  I actually like the new tee shot as the old drive into the bowled fairway left one on some pretty thin, poor quality turf thanks to it never draining well.

I'd actually like them to keep the new tee shot but move the green back to its original location with its original severity--I think that would be a whole lot more interesting and fun, instead of just a test of strength.  I'd move the tips from 490 to 460 and the more playable next tee from 460 to 420.
 

[Rich Goodale]

Tom

Thanks for the reply.

If, as you seem to imply, "texture" means a variety of visual sensations (colo(u)r, thickness, shape, etc.) I would argue that the best golf courses are those which have the least "texture," i.e. fit most naturally into their native environment.  While not great, Brora has the least "texture" of any golf course I know, and Dornoch and the Old Course and Pacific Dunes and Shinnecock Hills are not far behind.

Is not the lack of "texture" why we all so love brown fairways and greens, particularly at venues wher that is the natural colo(u)r for the time of year, or why Sand HIlls is regarded so highly?

Mark

Those pictures of The Honors Course incite me to avoid rather than seek out that venue.  If that is what is meant by "texture," please count me out.

Cheers

rich

[Peter Pallotta]

Mark - man, did I miss the boat on this one. I was going to say that texture was the difference between polyester and egyptian cotton, or between a water-resistant micro fibre and unbleached linen -- with the naturalness and simplicity and uniformity of cotten and linen being much preferred.  But then Tom mentions Pine Valley and the fifty year long process of introducing non-native species, and how important he thinks texture is - both of which came as complete surprises to me. Yup, what I don't know could fill a book, that's for sure. Texture? I have the texture of a sieve. But I will say this --I went to look at Frank Pont's photo essay of Dornoch, and there are whole stretches of that course that feel to me like unbleached linen...

Peter

Edit - I feel a little better now, what with reading Rich's post

[Adam Clayman]

The least texture?

I'm partial to an ever changing texture due to the season and temperature.

 

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