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Mark_F

4200 Square Feet of Perspective
« on: June 20, 2003, 11:50:08 PM »
I've just finished reading Mal Elliott's Perry Maxwell's Prairie Dunes, in which it is stated the average size of the greens is about 4200 -odd square feet.

My feeble mathematical mind cannot possibly begin to comprehend the size of that in real terms, so what is a real world way of stating that?

Twenty or so normal paces widthways, thirty normal paces lengthways?  More?  Less?  Half a dozen average dining room tables stuck together?

It's just that it seems a pretty small number, and i have no perspective to figure it out.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Brad Klein

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Re: 4200 Square Feet of Perspective
« Reply #1 on: June 21, 2003, 03:24:50 AM »
Mark, this isn't complicated.

4,200 sq. ft. = 60 ft. X 70 ft.

Assuming you are still spry enough like the rest of us old caddies to walk (on a golf course, anyway) in perfect steps of one-yard (something of a stretch if you are not 6-ft tall), that will mean a very complicated scientific analysis of

60 ft. = 20 yards = 20 good paces
70 ft. = 23.3 yards = 23.3 good paces

4,200 sq. ft. is also exactly 1/10th of an acre, which is the size of a basic urban home lot.

You have the basics already, then it's just a matter of figuring out what else is that size. A good floor plan for a house is 2,000 sq. ft., for example  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:06 PM by -1 »
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A_Clay_Man

Re: 4200 Square Feet of Perspective
« Reply #2 on: June 21, 2003, 04:55:50 AM »
MarkF- Have you played Pebble? I don't know the exact size of most of those greens, but in my recent memory I seem to recall that those greens are typically smaller than most and especially, most modern greens.

Using Brad's math, 20yds. x 23.3yds. is a rare number to see on a pin sheet. Even Spyglass Hill has predomintely 30 something yd depths. Most being closer but not exceeding 40 yds. The Preserve also has depths typically in the high 30's. Not very many greens are narrow, and if they are, the depth is usually lengthend.

One of the interesting tricks on certain holes is to figure out where the front actually is. I can site the tenth at Poppy Hills. The green sits just beyond the pond which gaurds the entire front (or what you'd assume was front) with a bunker front right and the fairway swinging in from the right (kind of).
What is odd is that on the pin sheet the depth of the green is measured from the extreme right side to the far left side as it is oriented from your view from the fairway. I suppose this makes sense to somebody, but to me it is quite confusing since linearly the front is directly on a parralel line with the waters edge.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Brad Klein

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Re: 4200 Square Feet of Perspective
« Reply #3 on: June 21, 2003, 05:15:46 AM »
Pebble Beach: 3,500 sq. ft. greens
Prairie Dunes: 4,500 sq. ft.
Oak Hill-East: 4,900 sq.ft
Augusta National: 6,000 sq. ft.
Oakmont: 6,800 sq.ft.
Kapalua-Plantation Course: 9,000 sq.ft.
St. Andrews: 22,000 sq.ft.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Steve Lang

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Re: 4200 Square Feet of Perspective
« Reply #4 on: June 21, 2003, 07:48:02 AM »
43560 sqft = 1 acre, so about one-tenth acre, many residential homes are build on 0.1-0.3 acres
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:06 PM by -1 »
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Jeff_Brauer

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Re: 4200 Square Feet of Perspective
« Reply #5 on: June 21, 2003, 07:57:36 AM »
Brad,

The flaw in your math is that the greens aren't square.  Most supers use an estimate of 80-85% of the length times width walk to calculate the area.  Thus, 70 X 80 = 5600, X.8 is about 4400 S.F.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Brad Klein

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Re: 4200 Square Feet of Perspective
« Reply #6 on: June 21, 2003, 08:01:04 AM »
Jeff, must be because I'm used to walking old squared-off Ross and Raynor putting surfaces, not those circles you modern guys build!

Actually, that's one of the great little lessons in modern architecture. Wish I had had it explained so neatly years ago.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:06 PM by -1 »
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Patrick_Mucci

Re: 4200 Square Feet of Perspective
« Reply #7 on: June 21, 2003, 08:59:58 AM »
Brad Klein & Matt Ward,

Wasn't one of the greens at Forsgate the largest green in the US or the world for some time ?

Do you recall the square footage ?

I recall that it was in a punchbowl type setting on a medium-short par 4.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Jeff_Brauer

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Re: 4200 Square Feet of Perspective
« Reply #8 on: June 21, 2003, 09:09:35 AM »
Pat,

I would be interested to know what the biggest is....

I built a 50,000 SF putting green in Mrytle Beach once, at Wild Wing.  Next year, my course in Lake Jackson, TX will have a huge green, combining 18, two putting greens, a chipping green, a sand bunker green and the championship tee on hole 1 (or, after the pro inevitably reverses the nines, 10) into one big honker of a green.  Since it serves multiple functions, it may not qualify, even if it is the biggest.

Hell, since its Texas, you gotta figure there is a bigger one in the state, since everything is bigger in Texas!

Brad,

I told this story here once before, but after touring Gulph Mills and seeing some Ross squared front, rounded back greens there, I wanted a similar green for the Quarry. I faxed up to a revised plan to the contractor for that hole, hoping to see it in rough form on my next visit.  I was dissapointed when I saw no work had been done on it, and when I asked why, they told me they were waiting for me to fax the other half.  When they saw the straight edge front on the plan, they assumed it was a match line to the second part of the fax.....
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Tyler Kearns

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Re: 4200 Square Feet of Perspective
« Reply #9 on: June 21, 2003, 11:48:00 AM »
Pat & Jeff,

    18th green at Indianwood CC -- 21,000 sq.ft. ?

Tyler Kearns
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Brad Klein

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Re: 4200 Square Feet of Perspective
« Reply #10 on: June 21, 2003, 12:06:20 PM »
St. Andrews-Old Course 5th/13th green: 63,000 sq. ft.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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CHrisB

Re: 4200 Square Feet of Perspective
« Reply #11 on: June 21, 2003, 12:54:55 PM »
How's this for wild:
the size of the 5th/13th at TOC is 63000 sq ft;
the size of all 18 greens at PBGL is 18 x 3500 = 63000 sq ft !!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:06 PM by -1 »
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Bill_McBride

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Re: 4200 Square Feet of Perspective
« Reply #12 on: June 21, 2003, 05:29:00 PM »
The greens at my home course, Pensacola Country Club, are really small, ranging from 4,500 SF down to 2,400 SF (! - 14th hole, 550 par 5 with drop off rear, this was the smallest green on PGA tour for many years) -- this makes for a lot of interesting angles and somewhat frustrating iron play.  The good news:  every green in regulation is a legit birdie opportunity!  And chipping areas make for fun short game opportunities as you don't hit as many greens as you'd like.  No indifferent iron shot ever stayed on a green at PCC!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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corey miller

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Re: 4200 Square Feet of Perspective
« Reply #13 on: June 21, 2003, 07:21:05 PM »


Forsgate #5 is about 400 yards with a 22,000 square foot green.  It is called "punchbowl" though it does not play like any I have ever seen as it is an uphill shot to a green  open in front and the two sides and the back form the punchbowl.

As Pat stated, the green was at one time the largest In the US.  The course has a wonderful set of bold greens.

It may be overkill on a golf course but the club does have a plaque near each tee explaining the hole and strategy and Banks design ideas.  Might this educational tool make members less likely to insist upon changes over the years?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Mark_F

Re: 4200 Square Feet of Perspective
« Reply #14 on: June 21, 2003, 08:41:08 PM »
Brad Klein:
Thanks for that particularly succint explanation.  I wish you had been my maths teacher back in High School...

So 4200-odd square feet isn't that small.  But do any of the other courses with small greens people have mentioned slope to the degree that Prairie Dunes' do?

For instance, the 8th slopes four feet from back to front.  is that playable, let alone holdable?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Mike_Cirba

Re: 4200 Square Feet of Perspective
« Reply #15 on: June 22, 2003, 12:06:07 AM »
Jeff Brauer;

My brother and I had a late evening putting match over your HUGE putting green at Wild Wing.  We kept trying putts from one side of the green to the other, which required taking it back about hip high!  

It was a blast, especially given the interesting rolls and areas where one's putt could sweep far away from the intended target.  

If memory serves, I won, so all I can say is that it must be a true judge of putting skill!  ;)  ;D
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Gyrogolf

Re: 4200 Square Feet of Perspective
« Reply #16 on: June 22, 2003, 09:56:53 AM »
Slightly off subject, but does anyone know the length of the 16th at North Berwick from end to end?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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JohnV

Re: 4200 Square Feet of Perspective
« Reply #17 on: June 23, 2003, 06:10:54 AM »
The Futures Tour plays at Lost Creek Country Club in Lima Ohio every year.  With the exception of 3 or 4 greens that have been rebuilt over the years, it has the smallest greens I've seen anywhere.  There were some greens that were 17 paces deep and about 12-14 wide.  That works out to just 1800-2100 square feet.  Coming up with 4 hole locations on greens this small was a challange.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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ForkaB

Re:4200 Square Feet of Perspective
« Reply #18 on: June 24, 2003, 06:42:45 AM »
Gigi

It is lovely clear day here in Fife, and I am gazing out of my living room as I "speak" onto the 16th green at North Berwick-West.  Yes, it is over 15 miles away as Jonathan Livingston Seagull flies, but I am both using my daughter's binoculars and availing myself of the handy-dandy reference book( "GCA Interpretation in Two Dimensions--The Value of Photography over Experience"  Naccarato, MacWood, et. al.; Dead Bear Press; 2003).  Based on my observations and the algorithms contained in that tome, I can happily report to you that the length of the "Gate" green is 31.37 metres.  Of course, since there is a significant dip in the middle of the green (Hadn't they heard of "fill" in the olden days?), the 3-dimensional "length" of the green is closer to 37.31 metres.  Both of these measurements are, of course, approximations and given that nobody has ever hit either side of the 16th green in two, highly irrelevant.

Your faithful sevant

etc., etc., etc.
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