[JWinick]

I don't understand how discussing the price of a service is in bad taste.   If so, then please refrain from ever discussing the value of a home, a car, a massage, a golf lessonn etc.   

Aside from sex, politics, and religion (which are fantastic topics btw), now we need to add another forbidden topic.   The more topics that are off-limits, the less interesting any forum becomes.   

Let's talk about the weather then.   Boy, it's been real cold this winter!   

[Adam Clayman]

Adam, it doesn't matter if the project is financed or fully funded, unless of course, you want the owner to treat the project as a charitable venture.

Patrick, Charitable isn't the proper word, but, yes, I believe those who enter into the realities of creating "Golf" should do so with more than a modicum of altruism. Ran started this website in a manner that could be considered charitable/altruistic/philanthropic. And look where it's gotten him today. Why the man is one of golf's most beloved figure. 

 Golf courses need a long time to make themselves profitable. That implies "Deep Pockets" are the only ones who should be building them. It also follows than the real driving force behind building pure golf is for the love of the sport.

   

[Mike Benham]

I don't understand how discussing the price of a service is in bad taste.   If so, then please refrain from ever discussing the value of a home, a car, a massage, a golf lessonn etc.   

Aside from sex, politics, and religion (which are fantastic topics btw), now we need to add another forbidden topic.   The more topics that are off-limits, the less interesting any forum becomes.   
 

"GolfClubAtlas.com is presented to promote frank commentary on golf course architecture."

[Kevin_Reilly]

Kevin,

Your argument is outdated and reeks of snobbery.   In today's 24/7 information age, private affairs are increasingly discussed in the public domain.   None of us on this board have a fiduciary responsiblity to keep a clubs finances confidential - unless they are members of the said club. 

How about if one obtained the information in the process of joining a club? 

Furthermore, the tax returns on any non-profit organization are available for inspection.   

Do these tax returns contain information about the initiation fee and waitlist of the club?  Are the tax returns "real time" or are the most recent filings reporting information that is old and cold (ie 2007 filings just now being made)....pull up the filing for the club listed in this thread and tell me what information that is currently relevant is included in it.

[Bradley Anderson]

This may be the tackiest thread of 2008.

[Ian_L]

Kevin, I have never been a member of a private club.  Could you please explain to me "the implications of confidential club financial information being posted"? Thanks.

[Paul Nash]

There are only a handful of clubs in the UK that are members (and gusets) only and don't allow visitors - and some such as Rye have changed and now allow limited numbers of casual visitors. Even Swinley is open if there is space around whatever society booking they have. The club I am a member of (Bearwood Lakes) was members and guests only until April last year when they voted through (in a very lively AGM) a motion to allow limited gusts between Monday and Thursday. Even though the club was doing better than most it still felt that this made business sense on 2 fronts. Firstly a few tee times 4 days/ week (probably mainly in the summer months - as it was £85 and no winter rate) would probably not interfere with the membership and would bring in valuable revenue. Secondly, it was good marketing - if no visitors could play how could they see that it is a lovely course and potentially want to become members. This policy has worked on both fronts over the past 18 months - the club is doing better financially than it has for several years and the membership is pretty much full. I was all in favour of the changes for exactly the points mentioned - also, the better the club is doing, the more likely it will keep fee increases down - which I hope they feel will be a sensible thing to do in the current climate!

[Dan Herrmann]

What about more (affordable) National membership programs?  Seems to me like that's a pretty easy source of cash that doesn't place a huge burden (higher dues and/or assessments) on the local members.  How many National members equal one local member when it comes to rounds played?  Maybe 5:1?  

Thank you, Thank you, Thank you!

I've been pitching this for years.  I'm not foolish enough to suggest a club like Augusta National do this, but why not clubs ranked, say, 500 - 2000.  Take my old club, Riverside, in Portland Oregon.  Sell a non-resident membership (live > 200 miles away) for $500 per year and get $100 for up to 10 rounds per year, all of which would be played on a weekday or non-prime time on the weekend? 

[corey miller]

Why is it that most calls for changes in private club policies concerning outside play come from those that do not belong to private clubs?

I belong to a private club in the NYC area with an initiation fee in line with clubs of it's history and a yearly dues in line with it's peers.  Hopefully, it will soon be ranked among the top 100 golfweek classic (I believe it to be).

It has wonderful overnight rooms, tennis, a pool, shooting, riding stables, squash, and a historic clubhouse serving meals.

It is 20 minutes from White Plains airport, 1 hour from LGA and JFK and NWK. 

The better daily fee courses in the area charge anywhere from $75-250

Please let me know what type of National Membership would be fair to the present members and I will make the proposal to our board. 

[Mike_Young]

Dan,
while you may not suggest that ANGC have a national membership.....I think they have been doing such for years

Corey,
I would suggest an initiation fee of $50,000 for the National membership and a green fee when they play of $200 with an accompanied rate for their guest of $275.  Of course it would be nice if the club would put a weekly coupon in the local paper allowing $20 rounds with a hotdog if they bring the coupon.....that should help in the slow times

[Richard Hetzel]

Also, don't forget.. the non-members playing only several times a year  take more divots and are less inclined to fix divots or mend their pitch marks on greens, I've lived through that on a course occaisionally shared with a resort.. a very real impact factor.

Some of the worst places i have played with divots/pitchmarks  un reparied have been at privat country clubs. If you set the price properly, you'll weed out all the hackers from the local muni.

[Chuck Brown]

What I favor is a national membership program limited to GCA members.  We'll fix all our pitch-marks, and replace our divots, support the local caddy programs, and finish in under four hours.  Plus, we'll make certain that the course is not over-watered, and we'll share our book collections with the rest of the guys in the grill room.
A win-win-win for everybody!  Who could turn us down?
 

[ChipRoyce]

I hate to say it, but in this current economy, golf is a luxury and not a necessity(although I beg to differ)  and many people are getting out of their clubs and the club doesn't know what to do.  Clubs can raise fees but that will make members bail, so a lot of clubs in my area of NJ are waiving initiation fees to lure new members.  This may be a chance to join a pretty good club with little or no initiation.

Here's a suggestion - could Ran create an thread or area of the site where we can discretely collect information about clubs that are opening up their memberships?

Reason I ask is that some cool National membership opportunities could come up that the GCA.com community would jump on in a hearbeat if we only had the information on a timely basis.

Suggest that this isn't out in the open to non-members. Believe that this info should be collected discretely and not undermine the clubs in question.

[C. Squier]

Why is it that most calls for changes in private club policies concerning outside play come from those that do not belong to private clubs?

Please let me know what type of National Membership would be fair to the present members and I will make the proposal to our board. 

I'll take the bait since I brought the National membership issue up initially.  I'm a National member at a great course that I enjoy playing very much.  I only get to visit 3-4 (at most) times a year, although when I do I usually bring friends.  What that means is that my cost per round is substantially higher than what I pay for my local club and I definitely bring more guest play along when I go because I don't know as many people.  I'll take advantage of the lodge on premises when I stay overnight which is additional revenue to the club. 

In total, I have a great destination that I look forward to visiting every year and the club gets another initiation/dues paying member that brings guests / eats food / uses lodging at a much higher cost per round than a local member.  As for fairness to current members?  I pay lower dues than local members, but I don't get nearly the same opportunity to use the course as much....factor in cost per round and I can't see any issues.  I certainly think that the National members at my local club have made a substantial investment and think it's great they found the club worthy of spending that much money on something they may only play a handful of times a year.   

[Mike Sweeney]

I'll take advantage of the lodge on premises when I stay overnight which is additional revenue to the club. 

Corey,

My suggestion would actually be to make this a requirement for National Members. They have to stay in order to play. I would assume your lodge is underutilized. Mountain Lake's National Member program basically turned the Colony House from a cash drain to cash supplier. I belong to Wianno on The Cape and they have a similar structure. It works from what I can see.

Way back when "someone" torched Fishers Island's lodge because it was such a drain.

Now with your new cash flow, you replace your American squash courts with International courts, and then host some adult and junior tournaments where the lodge would be used in the winter by adult players, juniors and their parents.

When the assessments disappear, you can have all the members invite me as their "guest for a day." 

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