[Mike_Cirba]

In digging into more of Merion's history, one of the biggest surprises to me is just how sophisticated some of the design features looked by the 1916 US Amateur, and in many cases, just how similar to today's course.

There are others I'll add later, but I think this historical review might be an enjoyable historical Holiday trip back in time.

Happy Holidays!!

[Mike_Cirba]

more

[Mike_Cirba]

more

[Joe Bausch]

Let me add a couple.  This one from the Public Ledger, I believe of the tenth green:



This from the Evening Bulletin, but I'm not quite sure which green this is:

[Sean_A]

Hey Mike, thanks for posting these old pix.  If you know what the labels state it would be helpful if you could just add the main titles telling us which holes are in the pix. 

Ciao

[Mike_Cirba]

Sean,

In order, the pics are of;


*Merion's original (NLE) 10th green from the right side
*The approach to the 16th green
*Today's 3rd green from behind looking back to the tee
*Today's 6th green from over near the 7th tee
*Approach to today's 7th green
*Standing just below and right of today's 7th green
*The approach to the 8th green
*Eighth green from right
*DUP posting of approach to 8th green
*Another view of Eighth green from right
*Yet Another view of Eighth green from right
* Walking down 9th just off the tee
* 9th green from short right
* Left half of two-page spread of 9th green looking up the 0th fairway to old 10th green (bunker in hillside beyond green clearly visibile
* Right half of same picture

Joe's pics show the old 10th green, and another "birds-eye" view of the 9th green.

[Mike_Cirba]

Here's a few more from about a year prior to the tournament...in order;

1) 17th hole from the tee (much of today's bunkering was done after this picture and before the 1916 Amateur)

2) 18th green from just below right side bunker

3) From the original 18th tee (shorter than todays with 180 yard carry)

4) From behind today's 3rd green looking back to the tee, with tee shot on today's 4th visible, as well.

5) Approach to today's 7th from left side of fairway.  It's tough to tell if the feature short left was filled with sand at that point, but it was by the time the tournament was held.

[Mike_Cirba]

I think the following recent pics by Joe Bausch make for interesting comparisons;


#7



#8



#9

[TEPaul]

Mike and Joe:

Not all but there are a few photos on this thread I do not recall ever seeing before and now the question is if some of them have never been seen before by either Wayne or Merion and its archives. If not you have made some remarkable find Boys!!

Merry Christmas.

[John Kirk]

Not to ruffle feathers, but doesn't the caption of the third picture say:

"The Finals On The Seventh, The Redan Green, In The Afternoon Round"

[J_ Crisham]

1916 was a great year for Evans: US AM/Open champ in the same year. I should know this but wasn't the Open at Minikahda? 
                                                                                              Jack

[J_ Crisham]

Who won the other majors that year?

[Mike_Cirba]

Not to ruffle feathers, but doesn't the caption of the third picture say:

"The Finals On The Seventh, The Redan Green, In The Afternoon Round"

John,

No problem there, and there is no question that everyone from Robert Lesley to Alex Findlay said it was a "redan" at the time it was built and holes called "redan" in the US went back to 1900 or so at Brookline.   "Alps" holes in the US went back even further. 

The only problem is that is isn't a redan, at least in terms of how we expect a redan to play.   

It's just a really good par three to a hilltop green built atop a barn with a green that flows from left to right and tilted back to front, with a deep pit for missing short side (which actually might be a saving feature), and unlike any redan I'm familiar with, no run up shot is possible...instead, the tee shot requires a full carry to the surface of the green.

It's a very cool hole, and if someone was inspired by a redan concept somewhere, that's all the better.

And to all a good night... 

[Jim Nugent]

Not to ruffle feathers, but doesn't the caption of the third picture say:

"The Finals On The Seventh, The Redan Green, In The Afternoon Round"

Actually, the photos go a lot further than that.  Look at the 2nd to the last photo in Mike Cirba's post #6.  The caption not only identifies #7 as a Redan.  Also says it was modeled after the famous Redans at  N. Berwick and NGLA.   CBM influence?   

Maybe an illusion, but in that picture it looks like the green slopes front to back.  Is that so?  Did Merion change this green somewhere along the way, to remove that feature?   

[Jon Wiggett]

Were the greens really as big as they appear to be in the photos? I know it has been said that the course has remained almost unchanged but have Merion really managed to retain the green size and shape since the early 19thC?

[TEPaul]

JohnK:

Because they resequenced the front nine for the 1916 US Amateur today's #3 (Redan?) did play as the 7th hole.

The front nine played thusly: #1, #2, #6, #7, #4, #5, #3, #8, #9.

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

Not to ruffle feathers, but doesn't the caption of the third picture say:

"The Finals On The Seventh, The Redan Green, In The Afternoon Round"

Actually, the photos go a lot further than that. 
Look at the 2nd to the last photo in Mike Cirba's post #6.
The caption not only identifies #7 as a Redan. 
Also says it was modeled after the famous Redans at  N. Berwick and NGLA.   
CBM influence?   

Maybe an illusion, but in that picture it looks like the green slopes front to back.  Is that so?  Did Merion change this green somewhere along the way, to remove that feature?   

[TEPaul]

Pat:

We've looked into that pretty carefully over the years and the best evidence is that #3 green has virtually never changed. If one stands on that green and looks at the topography out and all around it one can see there is virtually no way that green could've ever sloped from front to back like a traditional redan or even from front to back on a real left to right diagonal. A few of those who know the history of that course best believe that green is essentially the top level of what once was a traditional Pennsylvania "Bank" barn. If we ever find any photos of that land before the course was built we might confirm that fact. Before 1910 that land was known as the "Dallas Farm". That's the way it appears on an old railroad plat map.

Personally, I've never understood all this discussion and arguing over whether or not that hole and green is a real or traditional redan. The fact is it's situated on a gentle ridge and that's at least one of the requirements of the basic redan hole according to Macdonald.

Was the hole inspired by Macdonald or Macdonald's Redan at NGLA? We will probably never know but we do know Wilson and his committee spent about a day and a half going over Macdonald's drawings from abroad and the next day carefully analyzing NGLA in early 1911 before Merion East's design was finalized and put into construction. So it's probably a fair guess that either he or NGLA may've inspired or influenced this hole but it will probably always be just that----eg a fair guess! 

What we do know is there seems to be nothing around where Wilson and his committee or Merion ever actually said or wrote such a thing. Unfortunately, that just seems to be the way it went in those days.

Over five years ago Tom MacWood put a thread on here entitled "Re: Macdonald and Merion" that is now in the back pages. On that thread MacWood asked who specifically did what or who was responsible for what on the various holes of Merion East? We told him back then that noone knows the answer to that in detail, only generally, excepting that one story by Francis about the 15th and 16th holes.

If one pulls up and reads that old thread from over five years ago it appears he did not accept our answer on that. It's too bad he didn't because it's the truth and had he accepted it back then (instead of immediately claiming both we and Merion must be defensive and out to hide something ) we may've avoided over five years of contentiousness and rampant speculation on his part and on the part of another about who was generally responsible for the design of Merion East. 

[Mike_Cirba]

[Actually, the photos go a lot further than that.  Look at the 2nd to the last photo in Mike Cirba's post #6.  The caption not only identifies #7 as a Redan.  Also says it was modeled after the famous Redans at  N. Berwick and NGLA.   CBM influence?   

Maybe an illusion, but in that picture it looks like the green slopes front to back.  Is that so?  Did Merion change this green somewhere along the way, to remove that feature?   

Jim,

Truly, I think that's an illusion.   If you go back to my first post and look at the 3rd green during the 1916 US Amateur, I think you'll see pretty clearly that the orientation of the green is back to front.

There is no question that the hole was inspired by the redan concept, whether from North Berwick or from Macdonald's National Golf Links, and as you'll see on my next thread, these guys go way, way back.

However, "inspired" does not a template hole make, and it really doesn't meet most of the major playability criteria of what we think of when we consider the shot values and options of a typical redan hole.

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

We've looked into that pretty carefully over the years and the best evidence is that #3 green has virtually never changed. If one stands on that green and looks at the topography out and all around it one can see there is virtually no way that green could've ever sloped from front to back like a traditional redan or even from front to back on a real left to right diagonal.

TE,

There seems to be a defensive posture, confined solely to Merion, that holds forth that if # 3 doesn't have every characteristic or the precise configuration found at the holes at North Berwick and/or NGLA, then it can't possibly be a Redan.

This, despite the fact that an enormously broad spectrum of sources/references, over a very lengthy time period, clearly refer to # 3 at Merion as a Redan.

It almost seems as if there's a subtle or not so subtle attempt to deny a legacy.
 
There are a good number of Redans that don't reflect all of the characteristics of those at North Berwick and/or NGLA.
The Redans at Sleepy Hollow, The Creek, Morris County, The Knoll, Yale, Westhampton, Los Angeles CC hardly fit into the mold of the Redans found at North Berwick and NGLA, yet, the golfing universe considers them to be redans.

The geometric terms congruent and similar might be the appropriate terms to apply when categorizing a hole.

A few of those who know the history of that course best believe that green is essentially the top level of what once was a traditional Pennsylvania "Bank" barn. If we ever find any photos of that land before the course was built we might confirm that fact. Before 1910 that land was known as the "Dallas Farm". That's the way it appears on an old railroad plat map.

Ascertaining the genesis of the hole would be an interesting bit of information, but, I don't believe that it alters the physical properties and play of the hole.

Personally, I've never understood all this discussion and arguing over whether or not that hole and green is a real or traditional redan. The fact is it's situated on a gentle ridge and that's at least one of the requirements of the basic redan hole according to Macdonald.

Was the hole inspired by Macdonald or Macdonald's Redan at NGLA? We will probably never know but we do know Wilson and his committee spent about a day and a half going over Macdonald's drawings from abroad and the next day carefully analyzing NGLA in early 1911 before Merion East's design was finalized and put into construction. So it's probably a fair guess that either he or NGLA may've inspired or influenced this hole but it will probably always be just that----eg a fair guess! 

What we do know is there seems to be nothing around where Wilson and his committee or Merion ever actually said or wrote such a thing. Unfortunately, that just seems to be the way it went in those days.

While that's true, it also appears to be quite common today, with Steve Wynn, Lowell Schulman, Mike Keiser and Mike Pascucci being the exception to the rule.   

The design and construction history of most courses remains a mystery.
I find that surprising in this day and age.

At my GCA.com Symposium at Hidden Creek Bill Coore provided us a unique look into the creation of a hole and its features when he described how the 8th hole came into existance in its present form.

That type of information is what GCA junkies like you, me, Tommy N and many others crave.
Yet, so little of that information is available.

It would be neat if golf courses, like medical patients, had a complete "design and construction history"

I would imagine that creating that record could be a tedious project requiring additional manpower and funds.

Wouldn't you like to know more about the on site creative process and the evolving construction of an intended design on many of the golf courses you've seen and played ?

Over five years ago Tom MacWood put a thread on here entitled "Re: Macdonald and Merion" that is now in the back pages. On that thread MacWood asked who specifically did what or who was responsible for what on the various holes of Merion East?

I remember it quite well.
Initially, I vehemently disagreed with MacWood and Moriarty, especially about # 10 being an "Alps" hole, but, as more and more information came to light, I found myself transitioning from a doubter/denier, to a believer.

There appears to be a group of individuals who feel that CBM's involvement at Merion or any replications of CBM's design principles at Merion somehow diminishes Merion's pedigree or the quality of the golf course.  As a result, a culture of denial has arisen, such that anything that's attributed to CBM, either directly or remotely is automatically rejected as heresy.

I believe that CBM is integral to Merion's origins and design and I don't see anything negative in that association

[Mike_Cirba]

Patrick,

There is no doubt that the 3rd hole at Merion was inspired by the redan, whether North Berwick or NGLA or both.

However, it does not play like one, nor does it meet even 40% of Macdonald's description of what makes a redan.   

Like most holes at Merion, it does not follow any particular format or preconception.   Instead, I think any holes that used classic holes as models simply served as inspirations for using natural features already found on the property, and nothing more.

That is not denial...that's simply reality.

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

Patrick,

There is no doubt that the 3rd hole at Merion was inspired by the redan, whether North Berwick or NGLA or both.

However, it does not play like one, nor does it meet even 40% of Macdonald's description of what makes a redan.

Neither does the 7th at Sleepy Hollow, the 11th at Los Angeles, the 8th at The Creek or the 13th at Yale.
Yet, no one denies that those holes are Redans, and/or MacDonald's significant influence on those holes. 

Like most holes at Merion, it does not follow any particular format or preconception.   Instead, I think any holes that used classic holes as models simply served as inspirations for using natural features already found on the property, and nothing more.

How can you make that statement ?
One I strongly disagree with
The 10th hole, the "Alps" was clearly a highly constructed/manufactured hole, not employing natural features as the foundation for the green and its surrounds.

Your first photo provides clear evidence of that.

That is not denial...that's simply reality.


Then you need a reality check 

[Mike_Cirba]

Patrick,

I haven't played the 8th at the Creek, but I have played the other three and they ALL feature front to back running, diagonal, heavily side-sloped greens, a "kicker" feature on the high side that allows the golfer not opting to carry to try the running shot that uses the slope to "sling" a ball to back pins, they all feature a drop-off on that side for the golfer who misses the kicker, they all feature a diagonally-angled green protected along the majority of the front flank by a very deep diagonal bunker.

The 3rd at Merion has none of those things.  It differs from other redan-inspired, and every single Macdonald/Raynor/Banks redan hole I've ever played, in that Wilson and company just seemingly were inspired by the concept, yet didn't attempt to copy the playability.

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

Patrick,

I haven't played the 8th at the Creek, but I have played the other three and they ALL feature front to back running, diagonal, heavily side-sloped greens, a "kicker" feature on the high side that allows the golfer not opting to carry to try the running shot that uses the slope to "sling" a ball to back pins, they all feature a drop-off on that side for the golfer who misses the kicker, they all feature a diagonally-angled green protected along the majority of the front flank by a very deep diagonal bunker.

You must be able to "work" the ball a lot better than I can.

I'd like to know how you use the kicker to "sling" the ball at # 13 at Yale, # 7 at Sleepy Hollow and # 11 at LACC ?

The approaches to those greens are inherently "drop shots" with little if any of the ball flight intact upon impact.

The 3rd at Merion has none of those things. 
It differs from other redan-inspired, and every single Macdonald/Raynor/Banks redan hole I've ever played, in that Wilson and company just seemingly were inspired by the concept, yet didn't attempt to copy the playability.

Have you played the 3rd at Piping Rock ?
The similarities in the two holes are considerable.
While they're not congruent, they sure are similar.
You're hung up on one feature, the cant of the green.

Anyone who has played # 11 at LACC, # 7 at The Creek, # 13 at Yale and # 7 at Sleepy Hollow knows that they don't play like # 4 at NGLA, but, that doesn't disqualify them from being hybrid Redans, not unlike # 3 at Merion.

Isn't it time you came to grips with being in denial ?

[Mike_Cirba]

Patrick,

Unfortunately, I haven't played Piping Rock either.  a sad plight I'm hoping to rectify some day.

However, I did read Ran's writeup of the hole;

3rd hole 185 yards; The Redan hole for many. Who can argue? The front left bunker is a full twelve feet deep, making it the most intimidating of Macdonald/Raynor’s Redan front bunkers. Still, the bunker should be avoided as the green has great sweep from front right to back left. The proper aim can be as much as twenty yards right of certain hole locations, and seeing the ball take the slope just perfectly is the favorite shot for many on this course.

Hmm...sure doesn't sound like it plays like the 3rd at Merion! 

I deny that I'm in denial. 

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