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Matthew Mollica

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Re: The World's Greatest Course? Royal Melbourne Composite (Pictures)
« Reply #125 on: January 12, 2009, 03:42:58 PM »
Mark - some dodgy camerawork (albeit with a phone!) but they have indeed reshaped the trap. It's smaller and there's more of an alley to the right of the bunker, through which to thread a short, accurate shot.

Jason - Most think the Composite is superior to the West, with each East hole better than the West hole it replaces, yet I know of at least one member who prefers the West, on balance, and due to his love of 9W and 16W.

Stephen - You're welcome!!  :)

MM
"The truth about golf courses has a slightly different expression for every golfer. Which of them, one might ask, is without the most definitive convictions concerning the merits or deficiencies of the links he plays over? Freedom of criticism is one of the last privileges he is likely to forgo."

Mark Bourgeois

Re: The World's Greatest Course? Royal Melbourne Composite (Pictures)
« Reply #126 on: January 12, 2009, 08:43:14 PM »
Jason,

Here's my take on the comparison -- at least it was earlier in this learning journey!

In my opinion you could switch out the East holes on the Composite with those left out from the West and the strength of the layout would not weaken significantly.

Trying to keep this apples-to-apples in terms of par / length (another mind-bending exercise!), I have:
RME1 > RMW8
RME2 > RMW15
RME3 > RMW14
RME4 < RMW16
RME18 < RMW9
with RME17 not comparable to RMW13.

Scoring at home, a slim one-hole margin for the East holes. These are preferences not some measure of "greatest" or best...


Matthew,  that's just work on 4W tee going on back of 3W green and not work on 3W green...right?

Stephen and Matthew, so now should the club bronze an earth mover and bolt it next to those older farm implements?

Neil, very good summation of the case for Russell.  Not to take anything away from him, not in the least, but some might characterize Mackenzie's career in part as an ongoing effort to find methods that helped ensure his ideas were understood perfectly and implemented as he wished.  In modern parlance we would refer to Mackenzie's "intellectual capital."

Regarding preservation and changes to buildings, Thomas Krens when he was director of the Guggenheim Museum once lamented that whenever he tried to do so much "as change a g*ddamned doorknob every architect in America calls me up and yells that I'm an idiot."  The Goog as everyone knows is Frank Lloyd Wright, and Krens's analogy seems very apt here.

Mark

David_Elvins

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Re: The World's Greatest Course? Royal Melbourne Composite (Pictures)
« Reply #127 on: January 13, 2009, 01:44:10 AM »
Jason,

Here's my take on the comparison -- at least it was earlier in this learning journey!

In my opinion you could switch out the East holes on the Composite with those left out from the West and the strength of the layout would not weaken significantly.

Trying to keep this apples-to-apples in terms of par / length (another mind-bending exercise!), I have:
RME1 > RMW8
RME2 > RMW15
RME3 > RMW14
RME4 < RMW16
RME18 < RMW9
with RME17 not comparable to RMW13.

Scoring at home, a slim one-hole margin for the East holes. These are preferences not some measure of "greatest" or best...


Mark,

Its worth noting also that the composite course IMO has a better balance of holes for tournament play.

The Course rating for the Composite is over three strokes higher than the West.  You might prefer 9W to 18E but there can be little argument that 18E is a better hole in a tournament situation and balances the other holes on the course better. 

The west course also does not have a hole over 490 yards long. 

Whilst an argument can be made about the quality of the west course holes, the composite course is an almost perfect combination of different hole types IMO, and in its original routing has an almost perfect rhythm.
Ask not what GolfClubAtlas can do for you; ask what you can do for GolfClubAtlas.

Matthew Mollica

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Re: The World's Greatest Course? Royal Melbourne Composite (Pictures)
« Reply #128 on: January 13, 2009, 04:51:34 AM »
Mark B - You're correct.
No change to the 3rd green - a new tee for the 4th hole.

MM
"The truth about golf courses has a slightly different expression for every golfer. Which of them, one might ask, is without the most definitive convictions concerning the merits or deficiencies of the links he plays over? Freedom of criticism is one of the last privileges he is likely to forgo."

Mark Bourgeois

Re: The World's Greatest Course? Royal Melbourne Composite (Pictures)
« Reply #129 on: January 19, 2009, 08:15:00 PM »
How many times must we hear how wide the 1st (RMW1)?  It’s meant as an example, but when the 1st is the only hole offered as example then one wonders about the catholic claim.  Because the 1st seems to be the only example raised, we infer a rationale from the Golden Age: that in the days before driving ranges golfers needed room to recover.

And that is not Royal Melbourne at all.  The 1st is not meant as a warmup any more than the 1st is offered as an excuse.  The lie to the inference is given by Alex Russell’s 443-yard 18th, which serves as the ultimate hole not only on the Composite but his East as well.  The 18th is as wide as the 1st.

Royal Melbourne was meant to be big enough for you and me.

The 1st is emblematic of the Composite (and of the West).  The 18th is emblematic of the Composite (and of the East).  East and West do meet, and make a harmony in the Composite.  But where the West begins in a single bunker, the East ends in a necklace.  The 18th will see you through to the clubhouse beyond, but last you will have to negotiate what you negotiated first: a wide fairway that paradoxically demands precision, an enormous green, sand to play away from.

The approach to 18 green, in the gloaming: 180 degrees of width:



The green’s site is subtle and excellent.  Nudged into a rise gentle enough to escape notice from the dull of observation.  Of course, the bunkering – lacy, sculpted, plentiful – tends to draw one’s attention away from the green, and yet through its carvery break up the slope, a concept familiar to camouflage experts.

There is a slope in here, but the golfer can be forgiven if he doesn't see the hill for the sand:





The golfer who discovers a bunker will earn the sad task of surveying the slope from fairway to green – a grade “compressed” into a bunker's face:


When we walk off the green, we look back.  We look away and close the circle: the 1st green in the distance, calling us back....

Mark

Philippe Binette

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Re: The World's Greatest Course? Royal Melbourne Composite (Pictures)
« Reply #130 on: January 20, 2009, 05:39:19 AM »
Hey... wait a minute, what are those ''MOUNDS'' in the back of the last picture...

Don't tell me somebody is stupid enough to modify Mona Lisa again

Neil_Crafter

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Re: The World's Greatest Course? Royal Melbourne Composite (Pictures)
« Reply #131 on: January 20, 2009, 06:00:48 AM »
Philippe
I'd not noticed them until you pointed them out - more work from Mr Hawtree I expect.
Sacrilege

Shane Gurnett

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Re: The World's Greatest Course? Royal Melbourne Composite (Pictures)
« Reply #132 on: January 20, 2009, 06:17:02 AM »
Neil, I could be wrong, but I think those mounds are the soil they dug out of the new dam in behind 17 west.

Peter Pallotta

Re: The World's Greatest Course? Royal Melbourne Composite (Pictures)
« Reply #133 on: January 20, 2009, 06:32:06 AM »
Mark - as I like to do now and again, let me once more add my uninformed opinion and superficial observation to the mix:

The reason the 18th is a great golf hole is because it is a beautiful one.

Plus - how often does a guy coming off the 18th get to feel like Ben Cartwright?

Inanely yours,
Peter   

Mark Bourgeois

Re: The World's Greatest Course? Royal Melbourne Composite (Pictures)
« Reply #134 on: January 20, 2009, 07:21:22 AM »
I believe Shane is correct, they're not mounds. It is one big sand pile, fill from the reservoir being dug next to 17 West.

The club used to buy sand for use on the course, and when the digging began paid to have the fill trucked away.

Then they realized the courses sat on the Sandbelt...

Mark

Neil_Crafter

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Re: The World's Greatest Course? Royal Melbourne Composite (Pictures)
« Reply #135 on: January 20, 2009, 11:38:53 AM »
Shane and Mark
Those mounds that can be seen in the photo have definitely been shaped in place - it certainly does not look like a temporary stockpile site to me.

Mark
Nice description of 18E too. Peter, yes 18 is a beautiful hole but a tough finisher as well. The green appears as an island in a sea of sand and the island is a very tricky putting surface if the greens are putting quickly. No snack to make a par, especially in tournament conditions.
Neil

Stephen Britton

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Re: The World's Greatest Course? Royal Melbourne Composite (Pictures)
« Reply #136 on: January 20, 2009, 12:56:32 PM »
Neil,

You are correct the mounds are permanent. Look at the back of the 19th green, the mounds have been tied into the back of the 19th green surround.

I heard they will use some of the sand for various projects around the course (if they haven't already) but the majority will stay and be seed/planted up.

The mounds are to protect golfers using the 19th green from 18e tee.

Another "SAFE" change!
"The chief object of every golf architect or greenkeeper worth his salt is to imitate the beauties of nature so closely as to make his work indistinguishable from nature itself" Alister MacKenzie...

Neil_Crafter

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Re: The World's Greatest Course? Royal Melbourne Composite (Pictures)
« Reply #137 on: January 20, 2009, 01:08:07 PM »
Stephen
Thanks for confirming this.
Seems like RM must be run by OH&S specialists!
Groan.

Stephen Britton

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Re: The World's Greatest Course? Royal Melbourne Composite (Pictures)
« Reply #138 on: January 20, 2009, 01:36:18 PM »
This is a strange change..

The 19th hole was only built to use during the greens conversion to the "new suttons". On holes where it was not possible to provide a temporary green like on most par 3's it came into play. Once the greens conversion was complete it was to be used as a practice hole.

Interesting decision to create such dramatic mounding to protect a "practice hole" and change the tee shot view on one of the best holes on the course???

I'm not really feeling mounds at RM period!
"The chief object of every golf architect or greenkeeper worth his salt is to imitate the beauties of nature so closely as to make his work indistinguishable from nature itself" Alister MacKenzie...

Neil_Crafter

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Re: The World's Greatest Course? Royal Melbourne Composite (Pictures)
« Reply #139 on: January 20, 2009, 01:46:40 PM »
neither was Alex Russell when he built this hole back in 1932.

Has RM lost its way of late?
Serious conditioning issues over the last few years and now a swathe of "safety" related changes to the course, none of which seem to be improvements to what was there and had stood the test of time.

Stephen Britton

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Re: The World's Greatest Course? Royal Melbourne Composite (Pictures)
« Reply #140 on: January 20, 2009, 02:46:04 PM »
OK I just heard from another buddy who says the mounds are for stock piling only? I'm receiving mixed reports.

Anyone have confirmation on these mounds?
"The chief object of every golf architect or greenkeeper worth his salt is to imitate the beauties of nature so closely as to make his work indistinguishable from nature itself" Alister MacKenzie...

Mark Bourgeois

Re: The World's Greatest Course? Royal Melbourne Composite (Pictures)
« Reply #141 on: January 20, 2009, 04:21:09 PM »
Stephen and Neil

The pics are from last March and the sand looked like a big, well, pile of sand. It didn't look remotely like shaped mounding.  It was an eyesore, granted.

My info on the purpose came from a member during my visit.

Mark

Chris Kane

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Re: The World's Greatest Course? Royal Melbourne Composite (Pictures)
« Reply #142 on: January 20, 2009, 04:24:39 PM »
neither was Alex Russell when he built this hole back in 1932.

Has RM lost its way of late?
Serious conditioning issues over the last few years and now a swathe of "safety" related changes to the course, none of which seem to be improvements to what was there and had stood the test of time.

I will leave it to others to decide whether RM has lost its way.

I don't think the '"safety" related changes to the course' that you refer to were intended to be improvements - I doubt anyone seriously believes that what was there could be 'improved'.  I think its a little unreasonable for you to be criticising the decision to make changes per se - I'm not sure they had a choice.  Your position that nothing at RM should ever change might be desirable from the historian's point of view, but it is unviable on a golf course that it still played from day to day.

There is nothing wrong, however, with criticising some of the final products - 15E being the perfect example.

Brian Walshe

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Re: The World's Greatest Course? Royal Melbourne Composite (Pictures)
« Reply #143 on: January 21, 2009, 05:15:02 AM »
I played RME this afternoon.  The course condition was probably the best I have seen it in 5 or 6 years.  Fairways on the main paddock had been topdressed but the fairways on the other paddocks were all excellent.  The greens were as firm and true as I have seen them in a long while.  They still have a bit of room for improvement but compared to how they were a year or so ago it is a giant leap forward for a change.

7 and 8 still don't look or feel like they belong, the right side of 15 is an embarassment but the changes to 17 had me dumbfounded.  From the new tee the 4th West tee is easily reachable and why if you are trying to keep balls off the road on the right you don't have the tee hard against the fence is beyond me.  Exactly what they think they have achieved by altering the cross bunkering is a major mystery.

The pile of dirt right of 18 near the spare hole green has had big chunks removed from it - probably for the mounding around the 17th tee so my guess is that it isn't permanent.

Matthew Mollica

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Re: The World's Greatest Course? Royal Melbourne Composite (Pictures)
« Reply #144 on: January 21, 2009, 05:52:19 AM »
I'd venture to say Mark, Neil, Stephen et al, that Shane is correct, and the sand to the right of the 18th East is a stock pile, which has been shaped by the elements. If & when it is required elsewhere, I'm sure it will be transported.

MM
"The truth about golf courses has a slightly different expression for every golfer. Which of them, one might ask, is without the most definitive convictions concerning the merits or deficiencies of the links he plays over? Freedom of criticism is one of the last privileges he is likely to forgo."

Mark Bourgeois

Re: The World's Greatest Course? Royal Melbourne Composite (Pictures)
« Reply #145 on: January 21, 2009, 11:43:11 AM »
Stephen, although I don't know about 3W green specifically, your comment about creating a swale by taking sand away then using that sand to build the ridge is exactly what Mackenzie preached.

In his early lectures on economy in golf course construction he wrote of this very tactic.

Mark

Just to close the loop on this -- and note that keeping a big pile of sand on site, albeit an ugly pile -- from Mac's lectures on economy in course construction. Here it is, one of Mackenzie's open secrets:



Mark

Neil_Crafter

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Re: The World's Greatest Course? Royal Melbourne Composite (Pictures)
« Reply #146 on: January 21, 2009, 02:23:02 PM »
Chris
I was not coming to a conclusion that they had lost their way, but was posing the question for discussion. I am pleased to see Brian's report that course conditioning appears to have been improved considerably, so that is good news. I appreciate your confirmation that these works are not or could never be "improvements", except I am not sure, as Stephen has suggested, that many of these "safety" changes will actually do what they were intended to.

I don't think its reasonable to expect absolutely no changes to a course over an 80 year period, however, most changes to RM's courses were fairly minor and a case could be argued that most of these did improve the courses. In recent years I'm not sure you could argue the same quite so confidently.

Matthew
I think then that this stockpile was shaped mechanically, as this area does not look like trucked in stockpiles that the wind has blown around a bit. Good to hear though that it may only be temporary. Time will tell.

Brian
Thanks for your thoughts on 17 having played it. While I have not seen it since they did these mods, I can only think your assessment is spot on. Dumbfounded indeed!

Mark
Another good quote that fits perfectly the construction methodology of a good many RM greens. Practiced what he preached!

Stephen Britton

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Re: The World's Greatest Course? Royal Melbourne Composite (Pictures)
« Reply #147 on: January 21, 2009, 05:56:36 PM »
Chris
I was not coming to a conclusion that they had lost their way, but was posing the question for discussion. I am pleased to see Brian's report that course conditioning appears to have been improved considerably, so that is good news. I appreciate your confirmation that these works are not or could never be "improvements", except I am not sure, as Stephen has suggested, that many of these "safety" changes will actually do what they were intended to.

I don't think its reasonable to expect absolutely no changes to a course over an 80 year period, however, most changes to RM's courses were fairly minor and a case could be argued that most of these did improve the courses. In recent years I'm not sure you could argue the same quite so confidently.

Neil I agree,

What's dissapointing is, I would bet that the changes to 7e, 15e and eventually 17e have had zero impact on the amount of balls going over fences into houses or onto roads. So in the end we lose a little piece of history in the name of safety that probably won't even solve the problem.
"The chief object of every golf architect or greenkeeper worth his salt is to imitate the beauties of nature so closely as to make his work indistinguishable from nature itself" Alister MacKenzie...

Mike_Clayton

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Re: The World's Greatest Course? Royal Melbourne Composite (Pictures)
« Reply #148 on: January 21, 2009, 08:05:36 PM »
So many of the boundary problems have come with big headed drivers - big sweet spots, golfers bashing harder than ever send balls unimaginably far off line when compared with the old days - and no amount of safety rectification can do anything about the wildest of modern drives - drives so crooked to be unimaginable with an old wooden driver.
Damn the manufacturers for 'making the game more fun' .

Mark Bourgeois

Re: The World's Greatest Course? Royal Melbourne Composite (Pictures)
« Reply #149 on: January 21, 2009, 08:51:47 PM »
Watched a golfer give a speech yesterday in the freezing.  He said, "We reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals."

Change we can believe in!

Mark

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