[Jim_Kennedy]

Also, and I guess it was bound to happen, the rate sheet is quite different than the last time I was there.


..although you just can't beat there 6 month membership plans.

[Craig Disher]

Jim,
I had seen that info last year; I think we discussed it a bit on an earlier SP thread. Exhibits 1 and 2 - the postcards of the 11th and 6th tees - are part of the reason why I was confused after reading the article that Joe posted. If those cards are from earlier than 1914 then they just don't fit the information in the article. I agree that they look very much like the current 11th and 7th holes but it's unfortunate that we don't have dates for them.

 The 1907 photo of the Bilyeau house shows topography very unlike the SPCC surroundings. The aerials from the late 1930s show fairly dense woods throughout the property and there aren't many large trees in the anywhere 1907 photo. And the other photo showing the ditch crossing the fairway doesn't look like any hole on the current course. I have a 1919 GI article that has a photo of the SP clubhouse, the same one that's shown in the postcards you posted. Is that clubhouse the new one mentioned in Joe's article? I don't know. What  is known is that it was replaced by a much larger clubhouse that sat about where the practice putting green is now located.  From the pictures I've seen of it, it appears to have been built in the 1920s.

Some information on where the Bilyeau house was located would help clear this up for me anyway. Next time I'm in PH I'll go over to the SP town hall and see if they have old plats from the 1910s and 1920s.

[Mike_Cirba]

Craig,

We should all really figure this out.   It's a great puzzle.

I think I'm going to have to make a mid-winter trip to Pinehurst and do some personal inspection.   

[Mike_Cirba]

Ok...

Here's another clue for you all...

The walrus was Paul....er...ah..

Actually,

In January 1925, the Washington Post reported;

"Southern Pines, NC, January 13th,

In a four-ball match today on the new eighteen hole championship course, Emmett French, professional..."

We're narrowing this down.

[Mike_Cirba]

There was also an article in 1924 that referred to the "New" course, and a March 1925 St. Petersburg Times advertisement about Southern Pines referred to;

"THE NEW SOUTHERN PINES COUNTRY CLUB - One of the south's sportier 18 hole golf courses"

[Mike_Cirba]

March 28th, 1924 "New Castle (PA) News"

Hagen And French Beat
Havers And Ockenden
SOUTHERN PINES,' N. C., Mar.
28.—Walter Hagen and Emmet
French defeated Arthur Havers and
Jimmie ' Ockenden. British and
French open champions, respectively,
on the new course at Southern
Pines yesterday afternoon ' by one
up. The game was all even.at the
seventeenth tee and Hagen put the
visitors dorrnie one when he got his
par four, the other three players
missing their putts. On .the eighteenth
it looked liko Havers' hole
when he, ran a 30-foot "putt from
off the green for a birdie three,
but Hagen s|.rik a 10-foot putt for
a like score', thus winning the
match for the Americans. For the
day's play. Havers was the longest
driver, but the visitors both putted
badly, the sand greens evidently
bothering them some.

[Joe Bausch]

Here's a review of North Carolina golf courses in 1917, this from the Charlotte Observer:

[Adam_Messix]

The most fascinating thing about the last article was the description of the Kanuga Club in Hendersonville.  I think it is the current Hendersonville Country Club, but I'm not totally sure as I've never heard to it referred to as Kanuga. 

[Jim_Kennedy]

Adam,
http://tinyurl.com/ay2svo

Kanuga is shown on the map just a little to the SW of Hendersonville, sitting in a triangle formed by Crab Creek Rd. on the S. and Willow Rd. to the N and W..

Hendersonville CC looks to be N. of Willow Rd.

[Craig Disher]

Another data point for SPCC:

According to the Washington Post, in 1924 SPCC had 27 holes and boasted a pretty good golfer, Emmett French, as its pro.

[Jim_Kennedy]

So, by 1922 there were 4 courses at PCC?

http://tinyurl.com/88bj5d

[Craig Disher]

Jim,
Mandel says in his book that #4 opened in 1919.

There is a twin to that map that is later but undated. It shows the addition of 2 new holes to PH#2 - the 3rd and 6th which at the time played as the 3rd and 4th.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Craig,
I better get that book   

Richard,
Please 'splain to me again how to purchase one.

[Adam_Messix]

Jim--

Great find!!!!  I will have to go over there and take a look some time in the near future.  Thanks.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Adam,
From modern aerials there looks to be some possible hole corridors that remain.

[Craig Disher]

The Tufts Archives has the two maps and will make prints.

The old hole corridors are pretty much gone, at least on #2. On the map, the 3rd hole fairway is located near the back yard of the new large home on the 7th. The pit for the fairway bunker on the 4th can still be seen in the left rough on 7 near the turn of the dogleg. The map's 8, 9, and 10 are under course #4. The other holes are much the same.

[Mike_Cirba]

Here's a few pics of the original 9-hole course, in case they ring any bells in terms of location, as well as a listing of the yardages.   Strangely, it looks as though a par 2 may have existed;

[Craig Disher]

Mike,
Where did these pictures come from; do you know the date? Can you post the entire article in the 2nd? The mention of the holes being on both sides of the Seaboard Air train track suggests a course located in a different location than the 1920s version. On the other hand, If the rr track that runs next to the 2nd hole is the same, then the old course could have been near the current one - or somewhere north of town.

The flat ground seen in the first picture doesn't look like it's located near the current course. The shadows suggest that the camera is facing generally south and there aren't any southern views like that on the current property.

The picture of the 5th hole looks similar to the postcard view posted earlier which probably confirms that it is a view of the old course.

[Mike_Cirba]

Craig,

The pics are from the January & February 1913 USGA Bulletins.

Merry Christmas...

[Dave Maberry]

Jim,
 The book is available at Richard's website at 
www.golf-architecture.com/pinehurst.php or contact Richard through his website.
Dave

[Jim_Kennedy]

Dave,
Thanks for the info.


If you could see the course from both sides of the tracks, and if it's the same tracks, then some holes look to be located in the area between Dogleg Rd., Saunders Blvd., S. Broad St. and Hyeand.   

[Mike_Cirba]

From Golf Illustrated, 1932;

But suppose we have a look at the mainland
first. If you move down from the
northeastern section, the first real winter rendezvous
you will encounter will be Pinehurst.
And the mere mention of Pinehurst
suggests golf. Probably more golfers have
strode its fairways in the past thirty-five
years than have ever visited any other golfing
gathering place on the American continent.
Here are four eighteen-hole courses in one
cluster, and almost immediately adjoining
are the Mid-Pines and the Pine Needles
courses in addition. What is more, only a
short step removed is Southern Pines with
its own two eighteen-hole courses, or a total
of eight within a radius of a couple of
brassie shots, or thereabouts.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Mike,
Were these two courses at SPCC or at different locales within the town of Southern Pines?


edit: what is the oldest known aerial photo of the SP area? ...and can it be posted here?

[Mike_Cirba]

Mike,
Were these two courses at SPCC or at different locales within the town of Southern Pines?

Jim,

I don't know, but I doubt they were at different locales...I believe it's referring to 36 at SPCC.

This is the first source I've seen that seems to confirm Donald Ross's booklet where he claims to have designed 36 holes at Southern Pines.

I just assumed that only 18 got built, or perhaps 27.   

This is a job for Ran and Richard Mandell!   

[Mike_Cirba]

A friend wrote me and mentioned that Roosevelt may have had some government aerial photos done of North Carolina during the 1930s that might shed a great deal of light on what actually got built at Southern Pines originally.

Would anyone out there be familiar with that possible source?

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