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Melvyn Morrow

Re: Topic Deleted - Willie Campbell at Monmouthshire GC 1889
« Reply #25 on: December 20, 2008, 04:28:26 PM »


Topic reinstated

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Topic Deleted - Willie Campbell at Monmouthshire GC 1889
« Reply #26 on: December 20, 2008, 04:51:56 PM »
Melvyn -

Is the Paton referenced in the article the Stuart Paton of Woking fame?

Bob

Marty Bonnar

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Topic Deleted - Willie Campbell at Monmouthshire GC 1889
« Reply #27 on: December 20, 2008, 06:32:05 PM »
Melvyn,
as one who has started many's a topic on this DG only to see it disappear to the 2nd and 3rd page with undue haste, I implore you to NEVER delete something you have begun.

The largely American audience of this DG do generally prove to have little interest in very UK-based threads, and quite rightly so, for much of it is outwith their knowledge. Similarly of course I tend to avoid threads which ask for opinions on US and International subjects which are unknown to me. As an eg, I have never contributed to a thread on Merion or the Australian sandbelt. I can add nothing to those debates and, until such time as I can , I stay well clear.

Your thread had something like 650-odd reads before you deleted it. Trust me - that is close to being VERY interesting to GCAers. The fact that few chose to reply merely indicates their lack of knowledge rather than any lack of interest.

Your Posts are always interesting, sometimes thought-provoking and occasionally splendidly inflammatory. PLEASE don't stop, don't delete and don't despair. Threads are only interesting to people who are interested in them.

Remember, only 5% of Americans actually have Passports and only 5% of them actually ever use 'em. (I made up these figures, but they're probably not too far from the truth... ;))

FBD.
The White River runs dark through the heart of the Town,
Washed the people coal-black from the hole in the ground.

TEPaul

Re: Topic Deleted - Willie Campbell at Monmouthshire GC 1889
« Reply #28 on: December 20, 2008, 07:06:53 PM »
Melvyn:

What do YOU make of that article about that 1889 Campbell course?

To me it seems to imply that for some reason the thinking then was that what we now consider really rudimentary 19th "steepchase" architecture was some kind of improvement over the more naturally occuring seaside or linksland sites and courses. For instance, that is a very curious remark in that article about sand bunkers.

However, it does not really surprise me that there was that kind of thinking when golf first emigrated out of Scotland to INLAND sites. After-all golf did often evolve from those areas and sites of the recreational and sporting world of the horse. I live in an area of the recreational and sporting world of the horse and the fact is things like sand bunkers don't exist in that milieu and never have but things like fences, stone walls and berm jumps sure do and always have.

I think for a couple of decades after golf first emigrated out of Scotland to INLAND sites those kinds of features were simply used for golf without anyone giving it much thought.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2008, 07:12:21 PM by TEPaul »

Melvyn Morrow

Re: Topic Deleted - Willie Campbell at Monmouthshire GC 1889
« Reply #29 on: December 20, 2008, 07:07:42 PM »

Mike

Don’t be confused nor worried that you have upset me – no one has.

Bob

I have not looked into that, I just don’t know

Marty

I deleted my post after a couple of hours with 20 hits only – it was only after I deleted that people started to check out my deleted topic. 600 looked at a deleted topic, yet 20 read the original topic – I’ll leave you to try and understand.

Just for the record I posted it for the American interest i.e. Willie Campbell being in America from the mid 1890’s.  I was wondering if this Monmouthshire course was one of his first.  As for Old Tom involvement with Currie, again it was Currie’s Shipping connection that may have had a US connection.

But for your info (WARNING to all overseas readers – this subject may not interest you) Braid Hills course research is turning out to be very interesting. Apparently Hall Blyth (Muirfield & New Course) recommended a professional to design the course and his Pro was Old Tom with assistance from P McEwan (Musselburgh). Much more to unearth yet but again OTM seems to be involved. The other very interesting point is that Braid Hills seem to be owned by Cluny Estates – the owner was Lady Gordon Cathcart of South Uist/Askernish fame and also of bought the estate of the Earl or Erroll just after the start of the Cruden Bay project in 1894, She went on and developed Collieston, building the harbour and commissioning Old Tom to build another course for her at also at Collieston both in 1900. A Lady with close ties to Scottish Golf. But as I said I am far from finished this line of research.

Melvyn (all 100% Me)


Mike_Cirba

Re: Topic Deleted - Willie Campbell at Monmouthshire GC 1889
« Reply #30 on: December 20, 2008, 07:23:06 PM »

Mike

Don’t be confused nor worried that you have upset me.

Melvyn,

I remain both.   

Your post to me says that my response "opened your eyes" and then basically stated that you were going to refrain from further sharing of historical information here.

I don't understand what I wrote that would have that negative effect?   There was certainly nothing untoward intended, but I did find it very surprising that Campbell would build a course with fences as hazards.

I thought only we Americans did dumb stuff like that.  ;)   

Melvyn Morrow

Re: Topic Deleted - Willie Campbell at Monmouthshire GC 1889
« Reply #31 on: December 20, 2008, 07:28:43 PM »
Tom

Don’t fall into to the trap of believing that 19 Century designers did not design courses with some care and attention. They were not all one day wonders, this is just the ignorance that came from those that followed.  Yes some of the small clubs could only afford a rudimentary design, but most courses took between 3-12 months to prepare prior to opening – does not compute if they just pegged out the course. 

As for the course being called Links – that does not necessary mean that they were by the sea. It was the language of the day as courses were called greens or links. As for this course at Abergavenny, it must be some20 miles inland from the Bristol Channel so no natural or man made bunkers included as hazards. I see no problem with any of the article, just that it may be Campbell’s first courses.

Hope that gives you a better insight into the article.

Melvyn

Mike_Cirba

Re: Topic Deleted - Willie Campbell at Monmouthshire GC 1889
« Reply #32 on: December 20, 2008, 07:36:49 PM »
Here's a bit more on Campbell from some other sites.

I'm not sure how it jives with some of our other findings...for instance, I believe the Torresdale-Frankford attribution is incorrect as apparently there was another pro in Philly by the same name who also designed much of the early Merion Cricket Club course.

Still and all, some very good info here;

http://www.btinternet.com/~Islay.golf/newsletters/articles/willie_campbell.htm

http://www.gilliankirkwood.com/ercn86/2008/01/georgina-campbell-story-continues.htm

http://www.dotnews.com/franklin%20park-pt2.html

Melvyn Morrow

Re: Topic Deleted - Willie Campbell at Monmouthshire GC 1889
« Reply #33 on: December 20, 2008, 07:38:30 PM »

Mike

It was not negative, you comment explained opinions and I understood - Marty also confirms it in his post. There is no problem, it’s just a matter of interest.

Thanks for the info.

Melvyn

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