"SOUL" Park--Pictorial from this weekend and Q&A with Gil Hanse

[Tom Naccarato]

Interview on the Internet with Gil Hanse

GCA Attendees: What was the mandate from the County and manager Highlands Golf?  A longer, more challenging course, etc.?

Gil Hanse:The mandate was to upgrade the facility to make it more attractive to regional golfers.  It had always been popular with local golfers and the County wanted to expand its base and bring in golfers from around Southern California.  I think they viewed the success we had at Rustic and hoped to duplicate it on a slightly lower level.  Although I must say that first and foremost the impetus for the project came from the flood damage.  They knew that they needed to shut down to repair the damage and we were able to convince them that we could upgrade the facility at the same time.
Trees. 

GCA Attendees:How many did you take out?  Did you remove more than you wanted or would you like to take out more?

Gil Hanse:I think we took out around 250 trees, and yes we would have liked to take out some more of the non-native species.
The bunkers are edged with Kikuyu sod. 

GCA Attendees:Are the bunkers built to resemble any other architect’s work?  Did Jim Wagner build all?  If not, who built the others and which ones?

Gil Hanse:We had hoped to do a bunker that would be a cross between George Thomas, and some of the “collapsed” bunker edges that we like to build.  With Kikuyu being the predominant grass in the surrounds we thought it would help blend in better.  The bunker construction was a process where I would start the shaping with the dozer, Jim would take it to the next level with the excavator and Jim led the crew to finish the handwork. 

GCA Attendees:So Jim is primarily responsible for the bunker work. Who designed and built each green?

Gil Hanse:This process varied depending on how much earth needed to be moved.  We had a shaper who would “bulk” out the big earth movement, and then I would shape the green with input from Jim.  The crew put the green back together and then Jim, Matt Staffieri (our project manager) or I would float out the final contours.

GCA Attendees:The thinking about the change in the routing from the original design, were you restricted in keeping the existing fairways for any reasons other than economics?

Gil Hanse:The main change in the routing was our desire to get the finish away from the road.  We thought that this area was the least desirable on the property both from an aesthetic and a topographical standpoint, so we wanted to get it out of the way with the two starting holes in this area.  Once we were able to change the start and finish of the course with other holes just fell into place.  The economics of the project did play a role in the scale of the changes we were able to make on the fairways, but we also believe that there were some good holes on the course that we wanted to keep in the routing.

GCA Attendees:Did you ever consider a change in the make-up of the current 17th and 18th holes so that the 18th would not end on a lay-up par 4 with a reverse cambered fairway?

Gil Hanse:No, we felt like the least desirable piece of the property was the original 17th and 18th (today’s 1 and 2) and we wanted to get away from the road at the finish.  As a result it made sense to finish on the old 9th hole, which is admittedly not the strongest hole on the course, but we feel that it completes a better finishing sequence to the course.  As a side note, in looking at a lot of the older courses in the Northeast it is amazing to me how many reverse cambered fairways there are especially on Ross courses.  I am not a big fan of them but they do not seem to be taboo on these older courses.

GCA Attendees:Some bunkers have been filled in on 4, 6 (pot), 9 and 10.  Was this a Hanse Design decision?  Were you consulted?

Gil Hanse:No it was not our decision, nor were we consulted.

GCA Attendees:What kind of bent grass was used for the greens?

Gil Hanse:Several varieties, similar in nature to what we used at Rustic.  I think it was L-93, SR-1020 and 1021 (dominant blend), and maybe some Crenshaw.

GCA Attendees:Any changes you saw and desired to make but were unable to due to budget or other restrictions?

Gil Hanse:Not really any that I can think of, we may have been more aggressive with the fairway bunkering, just so that more of them could be removed!

GCA Attendees:Finally, can you convey what some of the costs were involved in the process?

Gil Hanse:
A.   Irrigation   $1.25 million
B.   Bridge work   $500,000
C.   Course renovation $1.1 million

Thanks Gil, Jim  & Matt. We had a great time! (Questions submitted by Lynn Shackelford)

[Tom Naccarato]

The putting surface of the 495 yard, par 4, 14th--a real tough brut.

[Dan Herrmann]

Wow - how busy does this course get?  I saw the green fees (very nicely priced!) and was amazed.

Thanks for the pictures - looks like an excellend and playable golf course with amazing scenery.

[Mike Sweeney]

How far is this from Rustic? Looks like a nice 36 hole day.

[Tom Naccarato]

From Rustic, its about 45-55 minutes, and only because of the way one has to go to get into the Valley. You literally have to go around a rather large area, but as the crow flies the courses are only about 23 miles apart.  Google maps says they are 34 miles apart by freeway

[Anthony_Nysse]

 






Now that is some cool bunkering!

Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt
Colonial CC
Ft. Worth, TX

[Tom Naccarato]

Tony,
Surprisingly, I think with the strength of the Kikuyu, the shapes seem to keep rather consistently. Although it has broken down in some spots.

Honestly, I'm starting to like Kikuyu a lot more. Its really interesting stuff to play from, and in some cases, lately, I've played several courses where it is playing fast & firm--doesn't bite as much as one would think.

[Bill_McBride]

Tony,
Surprisingly, I think with the strength of the Kikuyu, the shapes seem to keep rather consistently. Although it has broken down in some spots.

Honestly, I'm starting to like Kikuyu a lot more. Its really interesting stuff to play from, and in some cases, lately, I've played several courses where it is playing fast & firm--doesn't bite as much as one would think.

Tommy, have you played La Cumbre lately?  The kikuyu is like velcro.

[David Stamm]

Wow - how busy does this course get?  I saw the green fees (very nicely priced!) and was amazed.

Thanks for the pictures - looks like an excellend and playable golf course with amazing scenery.

Dan, not very busy at all. It's somewhat out of the way and it rarely gets non locals (non ventura county) playing it. I remember last year when I played it for the first time (I've since played it about half a dozen times) and I was paired up with some guys from Thousand Oaks. They were simply amazed that someone had come almost 3 hours to play it. It was worth it. The course in the afternoon is a ghost town. As you can see, the setting is spectacular and the course is fantastic. I will submit, IMHO, it is in the top 3 public access in So Cal.

[Tom Naccarato]

Bill,
No I haven't. But the pictures of Geoff's work show it to be a much better course compared to what they had.

Have you seen this video?

http://vimeo.com/2104647

[David Stamm]

How far is this from Rustic? Looks like a nice 36 hole day.

Mike, not far at all, as Tom explained. I don't think you can find a better public 36 hole day between the two of them in all of So Cal, IMO.

[Tom Naccarato]

Dan, David is correct. I think its easily one of the best accessible public layouts in California. Soule Park is no different then Ojai itself; hard enough/far enough to get to, yet perfect distance to get away from it all. I could see myself retiring there someday. I love the place, and the course. It's hidden in respects to L.A., yet people--smart people know that it is LA's best kept secret.

[Kalen Braley]

Tom,

This looks to be a fantastic treat and great company to boot, even if it is a bit off the beaten path.

How long of a drive is this from LAX assuming non-rush hour traffic?

Thx.

[Tom Naccarato]

About an hour and fifteen minutes average, depending on traffic. The place is only 11 miles inland from Ventura County line. The point right where the 101 meets the ocean. (Ventura County Fairgrounds)

[Anthony_Nysse]

Tony,
Surprisingly, I think with the strength of the Kikuyu, the shapes seem to keep rather consistently. Although it has broken down in some spots.

Honestly, I'm starting to like Kikuyu a lot more. Its really interesting stuff to play from, and in some cases, lately, I've played several courses where it is playing fast & firm--doesn't bite as much as one would think.

Tommy, do more courses NOT overseed the kikuyu? I know Riveria doesnt and Torry used to....i wonder how it compares to bermuda

Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt.
Colonial CC
Ft. Worth, TX

[Tom Naccarato]

Tony,
As far as I know, the majority of them just let it go. Once its taken, its taken unless a great majority of the courses choose to try to eradicate it. Overseeding, well I just played a private club last week which is all Kikuyu and I think they were over-seeding it in some places., It was beautifully maintained as far as green goes, but somewhat of a slog in some places, usually the approaches are what suffer the most. Hoepfully that member will contribute here what his course is doing.

[Allan Long]

Tommy,

Thanks for posting the interview with Mr. Hanse.

I don't know too much about the history of Soule Park, but I notice the website says that the course was completely re-designed in 2005. Can you talk about how the course played originally vs. how it plays now? Or from your perspective, give a sense of what about the course you like or is different after the work by Hanse, Wagner and Co?

[Tom Naccarato]

Allan, I had previously never played the course before Gil & Jim started work out there. I had driven in and looked, but most of my time in Ojai has always been spent at the Inn. I was fortunate to be out there a couple of days during the redesign, got to hang out and help Larry Rogers, who did a great job on the irrigation too.

What was out there before, was covered in trees. Many of them not natural to the site.

[Tom Yost]

Tommy;

Thanks for the interview and the nice bunch of ass photos.   

[Lou_Duran]

I normally like to play about noon, so I wasn't thrilled about getting up at 4:00 a.m. for a two+ hour drive to Ojai.  Thanks to Tom N for putting this together, to Jon Spaulding for driving, and to Lynn S for his interview transcript with Gil Hanse as well as his personal notes on the course.  A second thanks to Tom N for not taking pictures of me with or without a club, and to Lynn S for generously sharing his insights on how to play the course though we were on opposite teams and for trying to encourage me when I started to hit the ball left-to-left after my legs gave out on the sixth hole.  Sorry partner (Jon S).  It couldn't have been pretty or easy.

For the record, we were second or third off, didn't wait once for the group in front of us, and all four of us walked in 4:15 including a short break at the turn for hot chocolate.  Tom's fivesome did wait on us a few times, though I don't think it was for long.

Soule Park is a mostly flat course with a wide dry creek (arroyo) bisecting the site diagonally.  Architecturally, two things distinguish this course, very attractive, well-placed bunkers and superb green complexes.  The proximity off the tees and greens and the gentle terrain make walking easy.

I agree with most of Lynn's comments regarding the unnecessary grassing-over of a handful of Ganse's bunkers (mainly on 4 and 10), the need for further tree removal, the relocation of the curbed cartpath from near the front the green on the difficult #8, and the questionable change of #14 to a par 5 (by adding a tee 20 yards back; with a punch bowl green and only two other par 4s at over 400 yards on the back, a long two-shotter makes more sense here than a second ultra-short par 5).  I probably part company with Lynn on the need of the redanesque #17 green complex to be softened on the grounds that a well hit drive should leave a short approach.

I also agree that Rustic Canyon is a superior course, primarily because it has better variety, more topography on the back nine, and stronger finishing holes on both sides.  By CA standards, both are excellent daily-fee courses and great values.

As always, seeing some old faces was fantastic as was meeting new folks (Jeremy, Lloyd, Christian).  It is great to get outdoors and play the game we all love with people who have a strong interest in its architecture.  We may disagree on many things, gca and otherwise, but our time together is well spent.  Lastly, thanks to the Hanse group for plying your trade to our delight.  When one hits the ball as poorly as I did half the time yesterday and still thoroughly enjoys the course, it has to say something about the architecture.

[Tom Naccarato]

It was great seeing you Lou, and you didn't slow anyone down. The round seemed like the fastest I played in a long, long time, no one really held anyone up.

[Willie_Dow]

Tommy:  Those bunkers look like what we used to have !

[Tom Naccarato]

Willie,
Yes, they do! Absolutely!

[David Stamm]

Tommy,

Thanks for posting the interview with Mr. Hanse.

I don't know too much about the history of Soule Park, but I notice the website says that the course was completely re-designed in 2005. Can you talk about how the course played originally vs. how it plays now? Or from your perspective, give a sense of what about the course you like or is different after the work by Hanse, Wagner and Co?

Allan, I did not play it before the redo, but have seen some old pics and aerials and talked to those that have played it for many years. It was a solid overall routing for the most part by Bell jr. Typical jr features that one would find at Torrey, Sandpiper, Los Verdes, Malibu CC etc. From looking at photos of before, there are more internal hazards, bunkers that offer better approaches should they be carried and greens that are miles better than anything Bell jr ever did. There is a bit of visual deception by Gil by tying in bunker lines and giving one a sense of uncertainty about the target. There is little bit of "change ups" in spots, such as the 5th green which is a departure from most others because it almost looks Raynoresque with it's crisp lines, yet, it does not disturb the flow of the course. There is a "Alpsy" hole (the 14th) with a wonderful punchbowl green and a cool Redan like green on the par 4 17th. Some bunkers feature some "scabs" ala MacKenzie. Overall the course feels more like Thomas/Bell sr than anybody, yet it appears Gil utilized alot of influences that he likes and had some fun with it throughout the course.

[Lynn_Shackelford]

David to follow up on your thoughts.  Gil was working with Bahto on Sleepy Hollow at the same time he was shaping Soule Park.  I kidded some guys Saturday that some Raynor may have crept into his mind as a result.  The 5th is Raynor like, yet fits in with the rest of the greens.  When he was shaping it, I also thought of the 14th at Royal Dornoch.  And yes the 17th is redan like and the 14th is punch bowl like.

Lou good summary of the day.  Lively discussion about the best publics in SoCal (not many to cover) and even Maidstone got some air time.
The consensus seems to be a bit of disagreement with me.  The current routing is fine, the 17th is fine, let the dubs complain, while there is agreement with me that the 14th is and should be a two shotter.

Tommy, on to Santa Anita.