[Mike Mosely]

Jay wrote a nice piece on Leatherstocking.  He said a shorter version will appear either at Golf Channel or Golf Observer, and that its intended audience is everyone, not just architecture fans.  There were some interesting architectural insights and stories from the head pro Dan Spooner.

http://jayflemma.thegolfspace.com/?p=1143

[Jay Flemma]

Thanks Mike.  Here's some photos too.  I'm having trouble with the uploader for some reason...

The fourth:



The 12th

[Dan Herrmann]

Wayne Morrison has some good posts on Leatherstocking if you do a search.

[Jay Flemma]

There's been a lot of good discussion about Leatherstocking from many different quarters.

Foley's:

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,35531.0.html

an old one of mine:

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,34714.0.html

Scott B:

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,30908.0.html

And WayMo

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,19209.0.html

[Tom Naccarato]

This is a question. I don't intend to upset the author in anyway, so no need to send a threatening letter or legal document.

N.G.L.A. was also the inspiration for the gorgeous drop-shot par-3 at twelve.

Are you implying that the 12th was a hole that was inspired by NGLA #6?

I realize that its a "Short" or looks like a "Short" hole, but how is that being inspired by NGLA when clearly the model for that hole was the 5th at Brancaster? Clearly you have a great passion for this course and that area. I'm in envy that you've had the chance to experience it because I've always wanted to see Leatherstocking myself and have always heard nothing but positive things about it. But never once did I hear that any hole was inspired by NGLA.

Could you please explain where you read or found this?

Thanks.

[JNC Lyon]

This is a question. I don't intend to upset the author in anyway, so no need to send a threatening letter or legal document.

N.G.L.A. was also the inspiration for the gorgeous drop-shot par-3 at twelve.

Are you implying that the 12th was a hole that was inspired by NGLA #6?

I realize that its a "Short" or looks like a "Short" hole, but how is that being inspired by NGLA when clearly the model for that hole was the 5th at Brancaster? Clearly you have a great passion for this course and that area. I'm in envy that you've had the chance to experience it because I've always wanted to see Leatherstocking myself and have always heard nothing but positive things about it. But never once did I hear that any hole was inspired by NGLA.

Could you please explain where you read or found this?

Thanks.

I tend to agree with Tom here.  The 12th at Leatherstocking is NOT a "Short" hole.  It is a fantastic short par three, with just the right amount of tension from the bunkers and OB to hinder dead aim.  However, the green is not of the "Short" variety.  It features no segmentation like 6 at NGLA or any of the other MRB short holes.  Rather, the hole gets its challenge because the slopes front to back with the lay of the land.  This is nowhere to be found at 6 at NGLA.

From looking at the article again, I tend to disagree with much of the architecture analysis.  I am a huge fan of Garden City, but I didn't think 2 at Leatherstocking played anything like 15 at GCGC around the green.  The appeal of GCGC 15 is the innocuous appearance of the approach shot.  The golfer faces what seems to be a wide open target with no need for thought. Only upon arriving at the green does he really see the need to keep the ball right of the hole.  2 at Leatherstocking's green is elevated well above the golfer and is two-tiered.  It plays much differently than 15 at GCGC.

Personally, I am a HUGE fan of Leatherstocking, so I think it is great that the golf community is getting to hear more about it.  It is the kind of course that should be celebrated in the era of charmless modern courses.  However, it is hard to find a ton of NGLA or MacDonald inspiration, with the possible exception of the par three 9th.  Rather, I think the course is testament to Devereaux Emmet as a superb router of a golf course, an architect who was greatly influenced by links golf, and as an underrated talent of the Golden Age of golf architecture.

One more note, 18 at Leatherstocking is NOT a Cape Hole.  The tee shot is a fantastic diagonal carry over Otsego Lake, but the green doesn't jut out into the water.  The green complex is what defines the Cape hole.  Check out George Bahto's second interview for a full explanation.

[Jay Flemma]

This is a question. I don't intend to upset the author in anyway, so no need to send a threatening letter or legal document.

N.G.L.A. was also the inspiration for the gorgeous drop-shot par-3 at twelve.

Are you implying that the 12th was a hole that was inspired by NGLA #6?

I realize that its a "Short" or looks like a "Short" hole, but how is that being inspired by NGLA when clearly the model for that hole was the 5th at Brancaster? Clearly you have a great passion for this course and that area. I'm in envy that you've had the chance to experience it because I've always wanted to see Leatherstocking myself and have always heard nothing but positive things about it. But never once did I hear that any hole was inspired by NGLA.

Could you please explain where you read or found this?

Thanks.

I tend to agree with Tom here.  The 12th at Leatherstocking is NOT a "Short" hole.  It is a fantastic short par three, with just the right amount of tension from the bunkers and OB to hinder dead aim.  However, the green is not of the "Short" variety.  It features no segmentation like 6 at NGLA or any of the other MRB short holes.  Rather, the hole gets its challenge because the slopes front to back with the lay of the land.  This is nowhere to be found at 6 at NGLA.

Personally, I am a HUGE fan of Leatherstocking, so I think it is great that the golf community is getting to hear more about it.  It is the kind of course that should be celebrated in the era of charmless modern courses.  However, it is hard to find a ton of NGLA or MacDonald inspiration, with the possible exception of the par three 9th.  Rather, I think the course is testament to Devereaux Emmet as a superb router of a golf course, an architect who was greatly influenced by links golf, and as an underrated talent of the Golden Age of golf architecture.

JNCL, there are plenty of "short" holes where the green is not segmented.  Sure, many are - like Stonebridge - but others aren't.  Dan Spooner the head pro and I both agree - he thought it was a short as well.  He also agreed there were plenty of features form NGLA.  There are two punchbowls.  There's a cape, an alps, etc.

[JNC Lyon]

This is a question. I don't intend to upset the author in anyway, so no need to send a threatening letter or legal document.

N.G.L.A. was also the inspiration for the gorgeous drop-shot par-3 at twelve.

Are you implying that the 12th was a hole that was inspired by NGLA #6?

I realize that its a "Short" or looks like a "Short" hole, but how is that being inspired by NGLA when clearly the model for that hole was the 5th at Brancaster? Clearly you have a great passion for this course and that area. I'm in envy that you've had the chance to experience it because I've always wanted to see Leatherstocking myself and have always heard nothing but positive things about it. But never once did I hear that any hole was inspired by NGLA.

Could you please explain where you read or found this?

Thanks.

I tend to agree with Tom here.  The 12th at Leatherstocking is NOT a "Short" hole.  It is a fantastic short par three, with just the right amount of tension from the bunkers and OB to hinder dead aim.  However, the green is not of the "Short" variety.  It features no segmentation like 6 at NGLA or any of the other MRB short holes.  Rather, the hole gets its challenge because the slopes front to back with the lay of the land.  This is nowhere to be found at 6 at NGLA.

Personally, I am a HUGE fan of Leatherstocking, so I think it is great that the golf community is getting to hear more about it.  It is the kind of course that should be celebrated in the era of charmless modern courses.  However, it is hard to find a ton of NGLA or MacDonald inspiration, with the possible exception of the par three 9th.  Rather, I think the course is testament to Devereaux Emmet as a superb router of a golf course, an architect who was greatly influenced by links golf, and as an underrated talent of the Golden Age of golf architecture.

JNCL, there are plenty of "short" holes where the green is not segmented.  Sure, many are - like Stonebridge - but others aren't.  Dan Spooner the head pro and I both agree - he thought it was a short as well.  He also agreed there were plenty of features form NGLA.  There are two punchbowls.  There's a cape, an alps, etc.

Name 5 authentic short holes where the green is not segmented.  A "Short" hole isn't merely a short par three surround by bunkers.

7 at Leatherstocking isn't really an Alps hole.  10 and 15 are the two great punchbowl greens I agree. 15 is my favorite on the course.  The options to that green from inside 100 yards are enormous.  Clearly Emmet had some influence from NGLA, but so did Donald Ross and Stanley Thompson and every other Golden Age archie.  It is great to recognize their influence but it is also important to recognize their originality.

[Mike Mosely]

Whoa, JNC, you're not correct.  7 is an alps hole, the bunker complex must be carried and enters into a punchbowl green.  Just like 4 at Black Rock too.  and there's a hole at red tail near where I live that is similar, although I think the huge bunkers is more on the side...Silva wanted to keeo play moving...

16 at sleepy hollow is not segmented for openers.  I think the 6th at the knoll club isn't segmented either. 

Bahto may disagree with what most people call a cape hole, but hasn't the definition changed over time to become more broad.  People describe 18 at sawgrass as a cape hole.  And doesn't the 18th green jut out a little bit into the water at LGC?

Jay, what about 15?  That has a bunker to be carried and has a punchbowl green as well.  Why is that not an alps hole, but 7 is?

Guys, please do not start a fight on my thread.  I'm sick of that nonsense, and it's bad for the site.

[JNC Lyon]

Whoa, J, you're not correct.  7 is an alps hole, the bunker complex must be carried and enters into a punchbowl green.  Just like 4 at Black Rock too.  and there's a hole at red tail near where I live that is similar, although I think the huge bunkers is more on the side...Silva wanted to keeo play moving...

16 at sleepy hollow is not segmented for openers.  I think the 6th at the knoll club isn't segmented either. 

Jay, what about 15?  That has a bunker to be carried and has a punchbowl green as well. 

Guys, please do not start a fight on my thread.  I'm sick of that nonsense, and it's bad for the site.

I'm not trying to start a fight, I'm just trying to discuss architecture.  The mission of this website is to promote frank commentary on golf courses and architecture.  I'm all for promoting a national article on GCA (ESPECIALLY Leatherstocking), but I'm not afraid to point out its flaws either.  Besides, a good scribe is willing to listen to criticism and use it to improve his writing.

For me, an Alps hole has a bunker that slashes across the entire front of the green like at 17 at Prestwick or 3 at NGLA.  A punchbowl green may or may not be involved.  There should be some sort of mounding in front of the green (which 7 at Leatherstocking has).  The hole is usually blind, but that isn't always the case (see the quirky 5th at another personal fave, Yeamans Hall).  It's possible that the hole is a modified Alps, but the continuous fairway leading to the left side of the green leads me to say no. 

In fact, I am a huge fan of the 7th.  How did Emmet get the most out of a small property?  He routed the three longest par fours (2, 7, and 10 if memory serves) dramatically uphill.  I though 7 was a brilliant hole and, as Jay stated, a dinosaur in modern golf course architecture.  I'd love to see what looks a bunker restored to the right at the bottom of the Langford-esque drop (along with the 4th, surely he got some influence from Emmet?).

[Tom Naccarato]

I'm trying to discuss architecture too, and have said as much in my opening. Please Mike, don't mistake my questions as nothing more then architectural interest. For you to even bring it up is redundant.

Jay, I'll ask again. Could you please explain where you or Dan Spooner, read or found that these holes were inspired by NGLA. That's all I'm asking. A simple answer will suffice.

ONCE AGAIN, I WILL SAY THIS: THIS IS A QUESTION. I DON'T INTEND TO UPSET THE AUTHOR IN ANYWAY, SO THERE IS NO NEED TO SEND A THREATENING LETTER OR LEGAL DOCUMENT.

[Tom Naccarato]

JNC Lyon,
Also, I forgot to say thank you for some description of golf holes. At leas you want to discuss and not fight...

It is appreciated.

[Tom Naccarato]

A few more questions for Jay, ALL OF THEM ARCHITECTURE RELATED.

Emmet was a disciple of C.B. Macdonald and Seth Raynor, the far-sighted architects who designed National Golf Links of America, so he routed the course to play into the teeth of most interesting terrain on the property, rather than avoid it or soften it. Moreover, like his mentors, the greens are the backbone of this cerebral, enduring design. Finally, Emmet was a wizard at designing par-5s, and his each of his quartet at Leatherstocking is fascinating.

Jay, Not trying to disagree, but more wanting to know where you have gotten your facts. (Please educate me) Where have you found in any writing where Devereux Emmet was a disciple of Charles Blair MacDonald AND Seth Raynor? While there is no doubt in my mind that Dev and C.B. were friends, I would almost just as much consider them colleagues. (I know that you know that term well)

IMHO, what I have found, researched and read, Dev and C.B. were friends and colleagues; both thought highly of one another. Dev was a founding member of the National Golf Links of America; (a course whose name you seem to be throwing around a lot on this thread) and it is written how they shared thoughts and ideas on the design of that course. You seem to forget that Dev first designed at Garden City Golf Club in 1898, 8-9 years before the first shovel was turned at NGLA, and with Dev Emmet as a consultant. I don't doubt the validity, but I do suspect some amount of inaccuracy. Especially after all your retractions of other articles in the past. (when you had some facts wrong)

Theres nothing wrong with that either.

[paul cowley]

JNC....."One more note, 18 at Leatherstocking is NOT a Cape Hole.  The tee shot is a fantastic diagonal carry over Otsego Lake, but the green doesn't jut out into the water.  The green complex is what defines the Cape hole.  Check out George Bahto's second interview for a full explanation."

I'm not so sure.
When I'm in doubt I fall back on something I learned being tootled fireside by the greats at our annual ASGCA meetings.....the Cape Test.
Let me see if I can remember how it goes....I'm bad at not writing things down. Trying to remember who said it....Ian..or Rees..maybe it was Tom or Pete...or Alice for that matter! Forrest maybe?.

Anyway, it doesn't really matter...but it goes something like this;

If its shaped like a Cape,
and If it looks like a Cape,
and it plays like a Cape........well then it must be a Cape!

I remember everyone being quite pleased with this presentation, and for the visual aid that made the words and description all the more real.....a big yellow banana that was held aloft while he spoke!

Someone then said "lets do one with a pear"....but that's about the time I passed out!

[Dan Boerger]

My 02¢ ...

I play Leatherstocking just about every year and have done so for 20 or so years (grew up in the area). For some reason my buddies and I always referred to this course as Otesaga.

Anyway, while there are certainly 'alps like' tendencies on 7, when I played NGLA my one and only time I was blown away by #3 and just how brilliantly the use of bunkers and berms were that guarded that hole. Similarities, to be sure, but the topography is too different for a direct comparison IMO.

I never really thought of 18 as a cape hole, but Paul brings up a good point that I really can't anything to.

I don't like the 12th, not because it's a bad hole, but because I can't stand how the tee shot sets up for me personally. (One time I played my more natural draw and it hit the cart path and is probably still bouncing towards the baseball Hall of Fame.) Did  I mention my disdain for paved cart paths?

It's nice to see this oft overlooked course get press! Nice work Jay.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Paul C.

I thought in modern times, only Robert Von Hagge could design a cape hole, because he is the only modern guy to wear a cape!  Now, by the same token, I think you should be the preeminent designer of Kilt holes.

[Mike Mosely]

JNC....."One more note, 18 at Leatherstocking is NOT a Cape Hole.  The tee shot is a fantastic diagonal carry over Otsego Lake, but the green doesn't jut out into the water.  The green complex is what defines the Cape hole.  Check out George Bahto's second interview for a full explanation."

I'm not so sure.
When I'm in doubt I fall back on something I learned being tootled fireside by the greats at our annual ASGCA meetings.....the Cape Test.
Let me see if I can remember how it goes....I'm bad at not writing things down. Trying to remember who said it....Ian..or Rees..maybe it was Tom or Pete...or Alice for that matter! Forrest maybe?.

Anyway, it doesn't really matter...but it goes something like this;

If its shaped like a Cape,
and If it looks like a Cape,
and it plays like a Cape........well then it must be a Cape!

I remember everyone being quite pleased with this presentation, and for the visual aid that made the words and description all the more real.....a big yellow banana that was held aloft while he spoke!

Someone then said "lets do one with a pear"....but that's about the time I passed out!

I see where JNC is coming from though, Jeff.  The old style definition/usage of cape meant one thing, but the definition has been diluted a bit.  Jay, you might want to clarify next time the new sense of the term as opposed to the old sense of the word, but we may be viewing the question from the eyes of GCA and not the broader audience Jay wrote it to.

Hi Paul, nice to see you.

[Jay Flemma]

My 02¢ ...

I play Leatherstocking just about every year and have done so for 20 or so years (grew up in the area). For some reason my buddies and I always referred to this course as Otesaga.

Anyway, while there are certainly 'alps like' tendencies on 7, when I played NGLA my one and only time I was blown away by #3 and just how brilliantly the use of bunkers and berms were that guarded that hole. Similarities, to be sure, but the topography is too different for a direct comparison IMO.

I never really thought of 18 as a cape hole, but Paul brings up a good point that I really can't anything to.

I don't like the 12th, not because it's a bad hole, but because I can't stand how the tee shot sets up for me personally. (One time I played my more natural draw and it hit the cart path and is probably still bouncing towards the baseball Hall of Fame.) Did  I mention my disdain for paved cart paths?

It's nice to see this oft overlooked course get press! Nice work Jay.

Thanks Dan, good to see you too.  I like three as well.  Yes, if you hit the cart path on twelve, you're playing your next from the Hotel lobby:)

[Tom Naccarato]

Dan,
Have you ever played NGLA before? If you have, is the 12th at Leatherstocking anything like NGLA #6?

Honestly, I think that the statements in the article are hubris; writing just to be writing something with little facts to back them up. His pictures however are quite nice, and I've complimented him for a job well done.

[Dan Boerger]

Tom - I have played the National, but only one time. The two primary difference between the 6th there and the 12th at Leatherstocking are, IMO: 1) greater elevation change at Leatherstocking and 2) a much more intresting green at NGLA. - Dan

[John Foley]

Jay,

Did not know 16 & 17 we're not Emmett. Who did those two and wear a're the other 2 Emmett holes?

Did Emmett leave any drawing behind of the course?

Tommy - I have no idea how much of a "short" 12 is, but it is a fun little hole.

Any true Dodger fan should make a pilgrimage to Cooperstown to see the HOF.

BTW - There is more golf in NY than just LI

Leatherstocking is a lot of fun. You need to come see for yourself.

[Tom Naccarato]

Dan,
Thanks. It would prove then that the statement is exactly what I suspected it was. There is no doubt that it is a nice golf hole and it was striving to be a Short Hole. It just wasn't inspired by NGLA

John,
Yes, I do hope to someday see Leatherstocking and even mentioned it to Dr. Childs last night, that on my next trip to New York, we intend to make it up to Cooperstown. I've got a lot of Dodger names I want to see there!

[Jay Flemma]

Jay,

Did not know 16 & 17 we're not Emmett. Who did those two and wear a're the other 2 Emmett holes?

Did Emmett leave any drawing behind of the course?

Leatherstocking is a lot of fun. You need to come see for yourself.

There is an olddrawing that hangs in the grill room.  I can't remember off the top of my head how old it is, but it's definitely an older routing.  I'll check my notes when I get home about the "who and when" of 16-17.  There may have been a couple configurations of those two holes.  I'll check.  It may take me a day or two.

Dan, don't listen to Tommy.  He's just arguing with me tio argue with me.  If you IM me I'll fill you in on my discussion with Dan Spooner.  But there are many holes from what some people call template holes and yes, a short is one of them.  It certainly is a Short.

[Tom Naccarato]

Jay,
I'm not arguing. I'm asking you where you got your factual information that these holes were inspired by NGLA. If indeed these holes were inspired, then you should show us that information. After all, this is a Golf Architecture discussion. Nothing more then your reading into. there is no doubt that the hole is a short golf hole. No doubt at all. Is there a horse-shoe shaped contour in the green?

Please do provide this information. It will further the discussions. I look forward to it and other discussions on the topic. I've stated as much at the beginning of my participation on this thread.

Thanks for communicating.

[Mike Mosely]

Tom stop it right now.  We all see right through you.  You trumpeted you were coming back to hound Jay and this is nothing more than that hare-brained scheme.  Well the emperor has no clothes.  Go ahead argue with yourself all you want, but leave the rest of us out of it

And while we're talking about it, you don't have to have a horseshoe on a short.  This is from Ran's write up of 5 at Yale:

"Also, the typical bold interior green contours found within Raynor's best short holes aren't in evidence here"

There;s no horseshoe at Stone bridge 16 or at Knoll Club short holes, or at sleepy hollow or at Charleston.  people put horseshoes in several types of holes back then. there's one at oakmont on a par-4.  is that a short?

Jay, you're doing the right thing staying above his nonsense.  Good onya.

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